Inside the H&G Regime
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[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45012.msg1318884#msg1318884 date=1303301224]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45012.msg1318877#msg1318877 date=1303300814]
I know it might seem fun to pick on Rosco, but I personally think his views on Rafa the manager were a lot more accurate than many on here give him credit for. I do think he's a bit harsh on Rafa the man.
*us lawyers gotta stick together*
[/quote]
The majority of Liverpool fans don't share that view. Did you see the reception he had at the Hillsborough memorial? Maybe you're out of touch being so far away
[/quote]
Where? Fucking Norwich?
Avvy has been to Anfield numerous times this season.
There is also a thread running on page one of the board right now organising a few beers before the Brum match, who started that thread?
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45012.msg1318877#msg1318877 date=1303300814]
I know it might seem fun to pick on Rosco, but I personally think his views on Rafa the manager were a lot more accurate than many on here give him credit for. I do think he's a bit harsh on Rafa the man.
*us lawyers gotta stick together*
[/quote]
The majority of Liverpool fans don't share that view. Did you see the reception he had at the Hillsborough memorial? Maybe you're out of touch being so far away
[/quote]
Where? Fucking Norwich?
Avvy has been to Anfield numerous times this season.
There is also a thread running on page one of the board right now organising a few beers before the Brum match, who started that thread?
[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=45012.msg1318914#msg1318914 date=1303303204]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45012.msg1318884#msg1318884 date=1303301224]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45012.msg1318877#msg1318877 date=1303300814]
I know it might seem fun to pick on Rosco, but I personally think his views on Rafa the manager were a lot more accurate than many on here give him credit for. I do think he's a bit harsh on Rafa the man.
*us lawyers gotta stick together*
[/quote]
The majority of Liverpool fans don't share that view. Did you see the reception he had at the Hillsborough memorial? Maybe you're out of touch being so far away
[/quote]
Where? Fucking Norwich?
Avvy has been to Anfield numerous times this season.
There is also a thread running on page one of the board right now organising a few beers before the Brum match, who started that thread?
[/quote]
Who are you? His bodyguard? This thread is about H&G and their tenure. I really couldn't give a monkeys about your and his social life, as touching as it may seem.
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45012.msg1318884#msg1318884 date=1303301224]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45012.msg1318877#msg1318877 date=1303300814]
I know it might seem fun to pick on Rosco, but I personally think his views on Rafa the manager were a lot more accurate than many on here give him credit for. I do think he's a bit harsh on Rafa the man.
*us lawyers gotta stick together*
[/quote]
The majority of Liverpool fans don't share that view. Did you see the reception he had at the Hillsborough memorial? Maybe you're out of touch being so far away
[/quote]
Where? Fucking Norwich?
Avvy has been to Anfield numerous times this season.
There is also a thread running on page one of the board right now organising a few beers before the Brum match, who started that thread?
[/quote]
Who are you? His bodyguard? This thread is about H&G and their tenure. I really couldn't give a monkeys about your and his social life, as touching as it may seem.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=45012.msg1318905#msg1318905 date=1303302706]
Avvy, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the criticism, the problem is that Rosco seems to be saying that Rafa has been as bad for the club as the former owners.
It's absolutely mental to suggest that.
[/quote]
I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but personally I don't think it's that mental.
I think Rafa was very fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy. My views on him are much as they have been over the last three or four years, and I doubt if I will see anything that will make me change my mind. I like Rafa the man, and respect Montse too. Over two legs in Europe there were few to touch him. Against that he was manipulative, played the sympathy card (as is being done here by/with Reade), was very stubborn, made basic tactical mistakes particularly against the poorer teams, and was not, is not a good people person. I think he took us as far as he could. I have no regrets he is not at the club any more.
That is all I have to say.
regards
Avvy, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the criticism, the problem is that Rosco seems to be saying that Rafa has been as bad for the club as the former owners.
It's absolutely mental to suggest that.
[/quote]
I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but personally I don't think it's that mental.
I think Rafa was very fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy. My views on him are much as they have been over the last three or four years, and I doubt if I will see anything that will make me change my mind. I like Rafa the man, and respect Montse too. Over two legs in Europe there were few to touch him. Against that he was manipulative, played the sympathy card (as is being done here by/with Reade), was very stubborn, made basic tactical mistakes particularly against the poorer teams, and was not, is not a good people person. I think he took us as far as he could. I have no regrets he is not at the club any more.
That is all I have to say.
regards
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45012.msg1318919#msg1318919 date=1303303405]
Who are you? His bodyguard? This thread is about H&G and their tenure. I really couldn't give a monkeys about your and his social life, as touching as it may seem.
[/quote]
Yeah, this thread is about H&G, and then you turned it into something completely different.
Because you're a cunt
Who are you? His bodyguard? This thread is about H&G and their tenure. I really couldn't give a monkeys about your and his social life, as touching as it may seem.
[/quote]
Yeah, this thread is about H&G, and then you turned it into something completely different.
Because you're a cunt
Norwich isn't that far away really.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=45012.msg1318922#msg1318922 date=1303303447]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=45012.msg1318905#msg1318905 date=1303302706]
Avvy, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the criticism, the problem is that Rosco seems to be saying that Rafa has been as bad for the club as the former owners.
It's absolutely mental to suggest that.
[/quote]
I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but personally I don't think it's that mental.
I think Rafa was very fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy. My views on him are much as they have been over the last three or four years, and I doubt if I will see anything that will make me change my mind. I like Rafa the man, and respect Montse too. Over two legs in Europe there were few to touch him. Against that he was manipulative, played the sympathy card (as is being done here by/with Reade), was very stubborn, made basic tactical mistakes particularly against the poorer teams, and was not, is not a good people person. I think he took us as far as he could. I have no regrets he is not at the club any more.
That is all I have to say.
regards
[/quote]
Perfectly summed up.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=45012.msg1318905#msg1318905 date=1303302706]
Avvy, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the criticism, the problem is that Rosco seems to be saying that Rafa has been as bad for the club as the former owners.
It's absolutely mental to suggest that.
[/quote]
I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but personally I don't think it's that mental.
I think Rafa was very fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy. My views on him are much as they have been over the last three or four years, and I doubt if I will see anything that will make me change my mind. I like Rafa the man, and respect Montse too. Over two legs in Europe there were few to touch him. Against that he was manipulative, played the sympathy card (as is being done here by/with Reade), was very stubborn, made basic tactical mistakes particularly against the poorer teams, and was not, is not a good people person. I think he took us as far as he could. I have no regrets he is not at the club any more.
That is all I have to say.
regards
[/quote]
Perfectly summed up.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=45012.msg1318922#msg1318922 date=1303303447]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=45012.msg1318905#msg1318905 date=1303302706]
Avvy, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the criticism, the problem is that Rosco seems to be saying that Rafa has been as bad for the club as the former owners.
It's absolutely mental to suggest that.
[/quote]
I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but personally I don't think it's that mental.
I think Rafa was very fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy. My views on him are much as they have been over the last three or four years, and I doubt if I will see anything that will make me change my mind. I like Rafa the man, and respect Montse too. Over two legs in Europe there were few to touch him. Against that he was manipulative, played the sympathy card (as is being done here by/with Reade), was very stubborn, made basic tactical mistakes particularly against the poorer teams, and was not, is not a good people person. I think he took us as far as he could. I have no regrets he is not at the club any more.
That is all I have to say.
regards
[/quote]
I agree in the most part. Rafa shouldn't be manager of the club anymore.
But, the owners were a far greater problem, and we'd be in a worse state if they stayed than if Rafa did.
The above may be debatable, but what is not debatable(in my opinion), is when looking back, that Rafa should be looked at in a far greater light than H&G. I can't see how anyone can argue otherwise.
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=45012.msg1318905#msg1318905 date=1303302706]
Avvy, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the criticism, the problem is that Rosco seems to be saying that Rafa has been as bad for the club as the former owners.
It's absolutely mental to suggest that.
[/quote]
I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but personally I don't think it's that mental.
I think Rafa was very fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy. My views on him are much as they have been over the last three or four years, and I doubt if I will see anything that will make me change my mind. I like Rafa the man, and respect Montse too. Over two legs in Europe there were few to touch him. Against that he was manipulative, played the sympathy card (as is being done here by/with Reade), was very stubborn, made basic tactical mistakes particularly against the poorer teams, and was not, is not a good people person. I think he took us as far as he could. I have no regrets he is not at the club any more.
That is all I have to say.
regards
[/quote]
I agree in the most part. Rafa shouldn't be manager of the club anymore.
But, the owners were a far greater problem, and we'd be in a worse state if they stayed than if Rafa did.
The above may be debatable, but what is not debatable(in my opinion), is when looking back, that Rafa should be looked at in a far greater light than H&G. I can't see how anyone can argue otherwise.
I can fully understand why people wanted Rafa gone but his pro's far outweighed his con's
Pro's:
3 trophies (2 of the best finals in our history)
Loved the club/city
Made us feared in Europe once again
Signed some exceptional players that would grace any LFC side
Got Kenny back involved with us
Set up a youth system that now seems able to provide us with first team players
Con's
Maybe he moaned too much i guess (although i can fully understand why he would with those 2 cunts as his bosses)
Some shocking transfer windows that really fuc*ed us up
Didn't seem the best at man management
Failed in his last season with us
Pro's:
3 trophies (2 of the best finals in our history)
Loved the club/city
Made us feared in Europe once again
Signed some exceptional players that would grace any LFC side
Got Kenny back involved with us
Set up a youth system that now seems able to provide us with first team players
Con's
Maybe he moaned too much i guess (although i can fully understand why he would with those 2 cunts as his bosses)
Some shocking transfer windows that really fuc*ed us up
Didn't seem the best at man management
Failed in his last season with us
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=45012.msg1318940#msg1318940 date=1303304765]
I can fully understand why people wanted Rafa gone but his pro's far outweighed his con's
Pro's:
3 trophies (2 of the best finals in our history)
Loved the club/city
Made us feared in Europe once again
Signed some exceptional players that would grace any LFC side
Got Kenny back involved with us
Set up a youth system that now seems able to provide us with first team players
Con's
Maybe he moaned too much i guess (although i can fully understand why he would with those 2 cunts as his bosses)
Some shocking transfer windows that really fuc*ed us up
Didn't seem the best at man management
Failed in his last season with us
[/quote]
those pros far outweigh the cons, I'd go so far as to say those pros make the cons seem trivial
I can fully understand why people wanted Rafa gone but his pro's far outweighed his con's
Pro's:
3 trophies (2 of the best finals in our history)
Loved the club/city
Made us feared in Europe once again
Signed some exceptional players that would grace any LFC side
Got Kenny back involved with us
Set up a youth system that now seems able to provide us with first team players
Con's
Maybe he moaned too much i guess (although i can fully understand why he would with those 2 cunts as his bosses)
Some shocking transfer windows that really fuc*ed us up
Didn't seem the best at man management
Failed in his last season with us
[/quote]
those pros far outweigh the cons, I'd go so far as to say those pros make the cons seem trivial
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=45012.msg1318940#msg1318940 date=1303304765]
I can fully understand why people wanted Rafa gone but his pro's far outweighed his con's
Pro's:
3 trophies (2 of the best finals in our history)
Loved the club/city
Made us feared in Europe once again
Signed some exceptional players that would grace any LFC side
Got Kenny back involved with us
Set up a youth system that now seems able to provide us with first team players
Con's
Maybe he moaned too much i guess (although i can fully understand why he would with those 2 cunts as his bosses)
Some shocking transfer windows that really fuc*ed us up
Didn't seem the best at man management
Failed in his last season with us
[/quote]
I think that's a pretty fair assessment, but perhaps needs an additional con in that he sort of seemed to have lost his way a little - like he started out with a pretty clear vision and perhaps that had got a little muddled by the end
I can fully understand why people wanted Rafa gone but his pro's far outweighed his con's
Pro's:
3 trophies (2 of the best finals in our history)
Loved the club/city
Made us feared in Europe once again
Signed some exceptional players that would grace any LFC side
Got Kenny back involved with us
Set up a youth system that now seems able to provide us with first team players
Con's
Maybe he moaned too much i guess (although i can fully understand why he would with those 2 cunts as his bosses)
Some shocking transfer windows that really fuc*ed us up
Didn't seem the best at man management
Failed in his last season with us
[/quote]
I think that's a pretty fair assessment, but perhaps needs an additional con in that he sort of seemed to have lost his way a little - like he started out with a pretty clear vision and perhaps that had got a little muddled by the end
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=45012.msg1318747#msg1318747 date=1303290986]
So you have no defence of Rafa, you're just having a go at me?
I think that says enough. He was a good at coaching, awful at managing is my opinion. Thats why under his watch we declined massively. His decision making is the main reason we entered the doldrums. Kenny and Commolis decision making is the,reason we'll leave the doldrums soon.
And as for cunts and who had their hearts in the right place, rape and pillage of the club etc etc the very simple irony is that the one man to take more money out of the club than anyone else was the one who "cares about the club".
I think Rafa is as much of a cunt as G&H so I see no reason, to read them differently. They were all in it to feather their own nests, only Rafa succeeded.
[/quote]
I'd stop with this stuff now if i were you mate. you've gone way beyond the point of being worth arguing with because you come across as completely unhinged on the subject.
So you have no defence of Rafa, you're just having a go at me?
I think that says enough. He was a good at coaching, awful at managing is my opinion. Thats why under his watch we declined massively. His decision making is the main reason we entered the doldrums. Kenny and Commolis decision making is the,reason we'll leave the doldrums soon.
And as for cunts and who had their hearts in the right place, rape and pillage of the club etc etc the very simple irony is that the one man to take more money out of the club than anyone else was the one who "cares about the club".
I think Rafa is as much of a cunt as G&H so I see no reason, to read them differently. They were all in it to feather their own nests, only Rafa succeeded.
[/quote]
I'd stop with this stuff now if i were you mate. you've gone way beyond the point of being worth arguing with because you come across as completely unhinged on the subject.
Interesting thread this and some very reasonable and fair analysis towards the end.
I don't think Rafa was ever an enemy or even "fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy". Many argued with his decisions and policies but I've never met anyone who regarded him as an enemy.
In hindsight he certainly made mistakes and could be stubborn (some might call this single-minded), but I do think he was committed to LFC and did what he thought was best.
As for the book being about H&G, I think their actions showed that they were more interested in money than they were the club. Their attempt to sue the club into oblivion was despicable.
As for Rafa a glance at his win ratio tells you he was a good coach and the recent developments with the youth players coming through tells you he was well able to manage the clubs resources.
All that said I'm glad at the way things have turned out, we are lucky to have Kenny Dalglish; and I'm sure the new owners won't make the same mistake of ridding themselves of a demanding Manager rather than addressing the actual problem which has been investment all along.
If for no other reason Rafa deserves some respect for the respect he shows to the club and the fans, I don't think he deserves to be added to the list of villains.
I don't think Rafa was ever an enemy or even "fortunate there was a greater mutual enemy". Many argued with his decisions and policies but I've never met anyone who regarded him as an enemy.
In hindsight he certainly made mistakes and could be stubborn (some might call this single-minded), but I do think he was committed to LFC and did what he thought was best.
As for the book being about H&G, I think their actions showed that they were more interested in money than they were the club. Their attempt to sue the club into oblivion was despicable.
As for Rafa a glance at his win ratio tells you he was a good coach and the recent developments with the youth players coming through tells you he was well able to manage the clubs resources.
All that said I'm glad at the way things have turned out, we are lucky to have Kenny Dalglish; and I'm sure the new owners won't make the same mistake of ridding themselves of a demanding Manager rather than addressing the actual problem which has been investment all along.
If for no other reason Rafa deserves some respect for the respect he shows to the club and the fans, I don't think he deserves to be added to the list of villains.
I thought the deification of Rafa would have been reversed when he engineered such a financially rewarding end to his tenure. You can't argue with a European Cup... You just can't... But it's not black and white. Just because he won that doesn't make him infallible. I've got some stories about previous legendary managers that show them in a less positive light too... that's because everyone's shit stinks, everyone does stuff that other people don't like.
H&G were a part of the whole financial meltdown of the western world. They're a pair of pricks, they bought us at the wrong time and they fucked it all up in the end. They weren't the only people to see a business model based on ever more debt collapse in front of them, it just so happened they did it with our club. They're not evil, they're just a pair of cocksuckers, and they got their punishment in the end.
Now move the fuck on.
H&G were a part of the whole financial meltdown of the western world. They're a pair of pricks, they bought us at the wrong time and they fucked it all up in the end. They weren't the only people to see a business model based on ever more debt collapse in front of them, it just so happened they did it with our club. They're not evil, they're just a pair of cocksuckers, and they got their punishment in the end.
Now move the fuck on.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=45012.msg1318747#msg1318747 date=1303290986]
So you have no defence of Rafa, you're just having a go at me?
I think that says enough. He was a good at coaching, awful at managing is my opinion. Thats why under his watch we declined massively. His decision making is the main reason we entered the doldrums. Kenny and Commolis decision making is the,reason we'll leave the doldrums soon.
[/quote]
Do you not think this is a little OTT Rosco? His tenure was, by judged by his critics and fans alike flawed but a significant leap forward from the previous regime. You know the stats so I won't offend you by reprinting, but to suggest that we went into decline is just clearly factually incorrect
So you have no defence of Rafa, you're just having a go at me?
I think that says enough. He was a good at coaching, awful at managing is my opinion. Thats why under his watch we declined massively. His decision making is the main reason we entered the doldrums. Kenny and Commolis decision making is the,reason we'll leave the doldrums soon.
[/quote]
Do you not think this is a little OTT Rosco? His tenure was, by judged by his critics and fans alike flawed but a significant leap forward from the previous regime. You know the stats so I won't offend you by reprinting, but to suggest that we went into decline is just clearly factually incorrect
I was actually pretty happy there was no more threads on Roffa...
Look, IMHO ROFFA had his failings, but he held us together through "their" tenure as owners...
To suggest he was as bad as 'em, I can't agree with...
IMHO things would have been *even worse* had Parry or those two appointed a manager afterwards..
Even if the book was a little inflated in it's vilification of them two, well, it's clear Roffa had a lot to deal with, and honestly to deliver what he did, against this background of total and utter dysfunction, just shows how well he did, for me anyway.
We're back in Europe's Elite, we've been seriously challenging for honors, for 5 seasons out of the previous 7. I couldn't have asked for more from Roffa, when you consider how far behind we were in 2004.
He was flawed, he had failings, and Vlad's post is spot on. But come on, don't forget the incredible joy he brought us many a time, more than any other manager since Kenny
Look, IMHO ROFFA had his failings, but he held us together through "their" tenure as owners...
To suggest he was as bad as 'em, I can't agree with...
IMHO things would have been *even worse* had Parry or those two appointed a manager afterwards..
Even if the book was a little inflated in it's vilification of them two, well, it's clear Roffa had a lot to deal with, and honestly to deliver what he did, against this background of total and utter dysfunction, just shows how well he did, for me anyway.
We're back in Europe's Elite, we've been seriously challenging for honors, for 5 seasons out of the previous 7. I couldn't have asked for more from Roffa, when you consider how far behind we were in 2004.
He was flawed, he had failings, and Vlad's post is spot on. But come on, don't forget the incredible joy he brought us many a time, more than any other manager since Kenny
I think it's factually incorrect to say that he's done as badly as they did. It's just a gross overstatement, even if you think he was on the whole not a good manager. We've analysed his failings and successes a billion times.
My point is I think it's absolutely insane to say that he was as bad as them in some global sense. Let's say you think that Rafa was just a paranoid, awful man manager, with just enough skill in Europe to con everyone. Great. When you start comparing his idiocy to those buffoons, characterizing the clubs achievements under him in the worst possible light, or take any opportunity you can to attack him, while dispassionately taking the fairest view you can towards H&G, I begin to get a little exasperated. To put it another way, what did H&G do with the club that was equivalent to Rafa's best years?
You think he's a cunt though. There's no real way of addressing that so forget it.
My point is I think it's absolutely insane to say that he was as bad as them in some global sense. Let's say you think that Rafa was just a paranoid, awful man manager, with just enough skill in Europe to con everyone. Great. When you start comparing his idiocy to those buffoons, characterizing the clubs achievements under him in the worst possible light, or take any opportunity you can to attack him, while dispassionately taking the fairest view you can towards H&G, I begin to get a little exasperated. To put it another way, what did H&G do with the club that was equivalent to Rafa's best years?
You think he's a cunt though. There's no real way of addressing that so forget it.
When I looked at Rafa I saw a decent man & a good coach who wasnt particularly good at managing people. He could be a bit mental, made some shocking signings and under-achieved.
I look at Ferguson, who is a much bigger cunt & is an absolute madman if you ever cross him or even if he thinks you did. He's made some absolutely shocking signings, but has also been natively successful, so his failings get overlooked.
People ask would he have lasted under FSG had he made such horrendous mistakes in the transfer market, but the truth is would FSG have backed him and secured his primary targets.
Anyway, he's no longer our manager and we've moved on.
I look at Ferguson, who is a much bigger cunt & is an absolute madman if you ever cross him or even if he thinks you did. He's made some absolutely shocking signings, but has also been natively successful, so his failings get overlooked.
People ask would he have lasted under FSG had he made such horrendous mistakes in the transfer market, but the truth is would FSG have backed him and secured his primary targets.
Anyway, he's no longer our manager and we've moved on.
Well, I feel quite chastened by the Hodgson era and by the difficulties managers subsequent to Rafa have had in getting the best out of Torres.
He's an excellent coach but a number of factors, including some poor decisions by Rafa himself, caused his departure. I don't know why people have to see him as either Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker, the truth is he's a lot more like Chewbacca.
He's an excellent coach but a number of factors, including some poor decisions by Rafa himself, caused his departure. I don't know why people have to see him as either Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker, the truth is he's a lot more like Chewbacca.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=45012.msg1319048#msg1319048 date=1303315903]
Well, I feel quite chastened by the Hodgson era and by the difficulties managers subsequent to Rafa have had in getting the best out of Torres.
He's an excellent coach but a number of factors, including some poor decisions by Rafa himself, caused his departure. I don't know why people have to see him as either Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker, the truth is he's a lot more like Chewbacca.
[/quote]
And there you have it.
I think we can lock this now.
Well, I feel quite chastened by the Hodgson era and by the difficulties managers subsequent to Rafa have had in getting the best out of Torres.
He's an excellent coach but a number of factors, including some poor decisions by Rafa himself, caused his departure. I don't know why people have to see him as either Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker, the truth is he's a lot more like Chewbacca.
[/quote]
And there you have it.
I think we can lock this now.
[quote author=themn link=topic=45012.msg1318936#msg1318936 date=1303304071]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45012.msg1318931#msg1318931 date=1303303878]
Norwich isn't that far away really.
[/quote]
It's my understanding that the train from there to Liverpool, passes through Nottingham.
*Dunga Punch*
[/quote]
It does indeed.
Lots of Mancs get on there unfortunately 🙁
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45012.msg1318931#msg1318931 date=1303303878]
Norwich isn't that far away really.
[/quote]
It's my understanding that the train from there to Liverpool, passes through Nottingham.
*Dunga Punch*
[/quote]
It does indeed.
Lots of Mancs get on there unfortunately 🙁
I'm not getting into people's individual arguments, but regardless of what you think of H&G and Rafa, we had the means to win the league in 08/09. It wasn't injuries or lack of investment that cost us, it was bottling must win games, that has to rest with the players and the manager.
More Serializations of the Book - for those that didn't get a copy from the Echo
Nice club, we'll take it:
Part one of our extracts from An Epic Swindle - Brian Reade’s account of the Hicks/Gillett years at Liverpool FC
One snapshot summed up the bizarre afternoon of February 6, 2007 when the new American owners of Liverpool Football Club caressed the This is Anfield sign, even though they were the antithesis of everything it stood for. Tom Hicks and George Gillett were barely able to comprehend their luck or contain their glee.
Behind the bank of flashing cameras which captured this Shankly grave-spinning image, their frat brat sons, new red woollen scarves sitting uneasily on stiff suits, stared gormlessly at photos of Liverpool’s past glories.
If a suspicion started to grow that something wasn’t quite right about these unknown American strangers taking over Liverpool FC, it was drowned out by a primaeval scream for change.
Since Roman Abramovich pumped millions of petro-dollars into a near bankrupt Chelsea, it was as clear as the 17 year gap on the League titles won section of the Anfield honours board that someone with deep pockets needed to take the keys out of owner David Moores’ hands and make Liverpudlians believe again.
Many were so relieved that David had been ousted that the Americans’ promise of the earth just seemed likeŠa bonus. Revisiting what they vowed at the infamous press conference should be compulsory reading for apprentice comedy writers because here was the ultimate masterclass in irony.
“When I go to Anfield I am going to be on the streets in front of the stadium talking to the fans,†said Gillett. Soon he would be hustled into Anfield from speeding blacked out vans for fear the fans wanted more than just a word with him.
“We are passionate about winning and will do everything we can to ensure Liverpool wins plenty of trophies here in England and in Europe.†They won precisely nothing during their 44 months in charge
“It’s not just about spending money.†True. They never spent any of their own.
“This is not the takeover like the Glazer deal at Manchester United. There is no debt involved.†Oh yes there was, every goddam cent
We believe that as custodians of this wonderful, storied club we have a duty of care to the tradition and legacies of Liverpool,†said Hicks. A duty so shamelessly neglected that Evertonians raised a flag after they’d left saying:’ Agents Hicks and Gillett: Mission Accomplished.’
“We want to build the greatest stadium facility in world football.†They did not even build the greatest stadium in Subbuteo football.
So wasn’t this a shotgun marriage of financial, if not football inconvenience?
Watching Foster Gillett refusing to speak a word to the Hicks boys should have told us that the families may both have been from the same country but geographically and culturally they were thousands of miles apart.
Besides, what did we really know about them? Gillett had been sniffing around the Premier League for a while.
He may have owned ski resorts and ice hockey teams but clearly knew puck-all about football. Plus, he couldn’t have a mountain of his own cash or he wouldn’t have had to beg Hicks to weigh in with his cheque-book.
Why did the Texan only come in at the last minute? What was known of him other than he ran a couple of US sports teams, once owned Dr Pepper and gave big bucks to George W Bush. Yes, that George W Bush.
They could have been the Glazers who would pile of millions of pounds of debt on Manchester United. But they weren’t, were they? Hadn’t they just told us that? Hadn’t Liverpool chief executive Rick Parry confirmed it?
They’d met Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerrard and Rafa Benitez and they’d all given the thumbs up.
You had to go with the judgement of those who’d met them. As Moores and Parry said, you only get to sell the family silver once and you have to get it right. Think glass half full. They wouldn’t pay all this cash for a club to not make it successful, would they?.
So I gave my newspaper, the Daily Mirror, 326 glass half full words that would haunt this Liverpool fan of 44 years for the next 44 months.
The only consolation I can take is I wasn’t the only one to be done up like a kipper.
Virtually everyone in English football and the English media swallowed it.
The logic being the Liverpool board could not be that stupid even though there was ample proof that they could.
In the Internet age it takes half an hour to discover that Tom Hicks was a serial asset stripper and failed sports entrepreneur whose gameplan wherever he went was to make huge profits leveraging the price of a failing institution, using someone else’s money to do it.
George Gillett was a bankrupt with only a small pot to urinate in.
So where were the eyes, the ears in the brains of the directors and shareholders of Liverpool FC who had been entrusted with the precious cargo?
Why did they, after years of searching for and rejecting potential suitors, decide at the 11th hour to ditch Sheikh Mohammed’s Dubai Investment Capital, whose accountant had spent more than a year doing due diligence in favour of a couple of Americans, one completely unknown to them, who didn’t even ask to see the books?
They paid an initial £108 million for a 62% shareholding and after buying the remaining shares that price would rise to £174 million.
They agreed to pay off the club debt of £44.8 million and vowed to put £250 million towards a new stadium. No one was asking serious questions about where the money had come from or why it was being lent on a one-year agreement, even though Hicks was thanking the Royal Bank Of Scotland for all their help.
Parry told anyone who asked that they had it in writing that this was not a Glazer type deal, they were not borrowing against the club.
But there was no such legal guarantee. The small print in the shareholders’ document gave them the option, as owners, to borrow against the club at a future date. In other words, the strangers had simply been taken at their word.
The question has to be asked of the shareholders who all willingly sold Liverpool short for an extra £500 per share.
David Moores owned only 51.6% yet he, along with Parry felt the fury of the fans for failing to see that Hicks and Gillett were blatantly putting their loan on the club.
City takeover adviser David Bick, chairman of Square 1 Consulting who had been involved in several major Premier League deal said: “I looked up the offer document that was sent to shareholders and I could not believe my eyes.
"They bought it with one-year funding which was effectively an overdraft.
“The document alone should have said to the shareholders and to Rick Parry ‘this is not right they are buying this on an overdraft.’
“It left them totally reliant on interest rates not going against them.
" No-one envisaged the world financial meltdown ut even before it, this deal was never properly financed.
“The financial structure was wrong and everyone who looked at it said: this is lunacy.â€
Nice club, we'll take it:
Part one of our extracts from An Epic Swindle - Brian Reade’s account of the Hicks/Gillett years at Liverpool FC
One snapshot summed up the bizarre afternoon of February 6, 2007 when the new American owners of Liverpool Football Club caressed the This is Anfield sign, even though they were the antithesis of everything it stood for. Tom Hicks and George Gillett were barely able to comprehend their luck or contain their glee.
Behind the bank of flashing cameras which captured this Shankly grave-spinning image, their frat brat sons, new red woollen scarves sitting uneasily on stiff suits, stared gormlessly at photos of Liverpool’s past glories.
If a suspicion started to grow that something wasn’t quite right about these unknown American strangers taking over Liverpool FC, it was drowned out by a primaeval scream for change.
Since Roman Abramovich pumped millions of petro-dollars into a near bankrupt Chelsea, it was as clear as the 17 year gap on the League titles won section of the Anfield honours board that someone with deep pockets needed to take the keys out of owner David Moores’ hands and make Liverpudlians believe again.
Many were so relieved that David had been ousted that the Americans’ promise of the earth just seemed likeŠa bonus. Revisiting what they vowed at the infamous press conference should be compulsory reading for apprentice comedy writers because here was the ultimate masterclass in irony.
“When I go to Anfield I am going to be on the streets in front of the stadium talking to the fans,†said Gillett. Soon he would be hustled into Anfield from speeding blacked out vans for fear the fans wanted more than just a word with him.
“We are passionate about winning and will do everything we can to ensure Liverpool wins plenty of trophies here in England and in Europe.†They won precisely nothing during their 44 months in charge
“It’s not just about spending money.†True. They never spent any of their own.
“This is not the takeover like the Glazer deal at Manchester United. There is no debt involved.†Oh yes there was, every goddam cent
We believe that as custodians of this wonderful, storied club we have a duty of care to the tradition and legacies of Liverpool,†said Hicks. A duty so shamelessly neglected that Evertonians raised a flag after they’d left saying:’ Agents Hicks and Gillett: Mission Accomplished.’
“We want to build the greatest stadium facility in world football.†They did not even build the greatest stadium in Subbuteo football.
So wasn’t this a shotgun marriage of financial, if not football inconvenience?
Watching Foster Gillett refusing to speak a word to the Hicks boys should have told us that the families may both have been from the same country but geographically and culturally they were thousands of miles apart.
Besides, what did we really know about them? Gillett had been sniffing around the Premier League for a while.
He may have owned ski resorts and ice hockey teams but clearly knew puck-all about football. Plus, he couldn’t have a mountain of his own cash or he wouldn’t have had to beg Hicks to weigh in with his cheque-book.
Why did the Texan only come in at the last minute? What was known of him other than he ran a couple of US sports teams, once owned Dr Pepper and gave big bucks to George W Bush. Yes, that George W Bush.
They could have been the Glazers who would pile of millions of pounds of debt on Manchester United. But they weren’t, were they? Hadn’t they just told us that? Hadn’t Liverpool chief executive Rick Parry confirmed it?
They’d met Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerrard and Rafa Benitez and they’d all given the thumbs up.
You had to go with the judgement of those who’d met them. As Moores and Parry said, you only get to sell the family silver once and you have to get it right. Think glass half full. They wouldn’t pay all this cash for a club to not make it successful, would they?.
So I gave my newspaper, the Daily Mirror, 326 glass half full words that would haunt this Liverpool fan of 44 years for the next 44 months.
The only consolation I can take is I wasn’t the only one to be done up like a kipper.
Virtually everyone in English football and the English media swallowed it.
The logic being the Liverpool board could not be that stupid even though there was ample proof that they could.
In the Internet age it takes half an hour to discover that Tom Hicks was a serial asset stripper and failed sports entrepreneur whose gameplan wherever he went was to make huge profits leveraging the price of a failing institution, using someone else’s money to do it.
George Gillett was a bankrupt with only a small pot to urinate in.
So where were the eyes, the ears in the brains of the directors and shareholders of Liverpool FC who had been entrusted with the precious cargo?
Why did they, after years of searching for and rejecting potential suitors, decide at the 11th hour to ditch Sheikh Mohammed’s Dubai Investment Capital, whose accountant had spent more than a year doing due diligence in favour of a couple of Americans, one completely unknown to them, who didn’t even ask to see the books?
They paid an initial £108 million for a 62% shareholding and after buying the remaining shares that price would rise to £174 million.
They agreed to pay off the club debt of £44.8 million and vowed to put £250 million towards a new stadium. No one was asking serious questions about where the money had come from or why it was being lent on a one-year agreement, even though Hicks was thanking the Royal Bank Of Scotland for all their help.
Parry told anyone who asked that they had it in writing that this was not a Glazer type deal, they were not borrowing against the club.
But there was no such legal guarantee. The small print in the shareholders’ document gave them the option, as owners, to borrow against the club at a future date. In other words, the strangers had simply been taken at their word.
The question has to be asked of the shareholders who all willingly sold Liverpool short for an extra £500 per share.
David Moores owned only 51.6% yet he, along with Parry felt the fury of the fans for failing to see that Hicks and Gillett were blatantly putting their loan on the club.
City takeover adviser David Bick, chairman of Square 1 Consulting who had been involved in several major Premier League deal said: “I looked up the offer document that was sent to shareholders and I could not believe my eyes.
"They bought it with one-year funding which was effectively an overdraft.
“The document alone should have said to the shareholders and to Rick Parry ‘this is not right they are buying this on an overdraft.’
“It left them totally reliant on interest rates not going against them.
" No-one envisaged the world financial meltdown ut even before it, this deal was never properly financed.
“The financial structure was wrong and everyone who looked at it said: this is lunacy.â€
- Status
