Ignore the whole Roy is our manager bit

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43150.msg1232936#msg1232936 date=1292248075]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43150.msg1232923#msg1232923 date=1292247157]

the bottom line is a top case manager would have us higher than 9th, that not a debate, surely? the question is would a better manager make us top 4, maybe, maybe not but he would DEFINATELY makes us challenge for it.
[/quote]

You are making a grand effort trying not to get this thread.
[/quote]

I totally get the thread hence my initial post on page 1, my point is though that no matter how hapless the squad currently seems with flaws that are obvious to all this is not a squad that is 9th worst/weakest in the league, that is pretty much a fact, with that being the case where does the blame lie?

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Well start another thread then

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43150.msg1232935#msg1232935 date=1292248067]
Some of the criticism is so fucking dumb.


[/quote]

in what way?
okay, granted you can't lay the blame for injuried players at feet of the manager, however you can blame the manager for loaning out fit players and not bringing in adequate. it was roy that resigned the injury prone aurelio.

you can't lay the blame for missed sitters on the manager.

can you lay the blame for defensive disarray on the manager? hmmm, what we have conceeded less set piece goals if we have stuck with zonal marking. it's up for debate.

the bottom line is I blame the manager for the league position we are in, share the players share in that blame but the buck stops with the manager.

 

[Avmenon]

Neil, a better manager would do better; but just looking at our squad and saying we should be doing better didnt work last year and we had a far better manager.

This squad has SERIOUS weaknesses.

Unfortunately the manager is just easier to replace than the squad, that's all I meant.

 

[Judge Jules]

In this case he's also far more important to replace. Of course the squad needs beefing up, but none of that will make a difference as long as this hapless overpromoted timeserver is in charge.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=43150.msg1232949#msg1232949 date=1292249372]
Neil, a better manager would do better; but just looking at our squad and saying we should be doing better didnt work last year and we had a far better manager.

This squad has SERIOUS weaknesses.

Unfortunately the manager is just easier to replace than the squad, that's all I meant.



[/quote]

I'm well aware of the flaws of each of the sqaud (yes, including my favorite players) but how many transfer windows will it take to address our weak spots? 2? 4? can we afford to kick a couple of seasons into touch while using the excuse of poor players? I think tactics counts for an awful lot and matchday, that's that allow the majority of the first 11 to shine rather than playing to the strengths of a couple of world class players.

okay, enough of this, if you want the thread back on track I can go back to listing how certain individuals can improve but I think these individuals are ultimately being exposed due to poor organisation and tactics.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43150.msg1232951#msg1232951 date=1292249732]
In this case he's also far more important to replace. Of course the squad needs beefing up, but none of that will make a difference as long as this hapless overpromoted timeserver is in charge.
[/quote]

succinct and to the point...

 

[SaintGeorge67]

But NO ONE disagrees with that.

 

[Judge Jules]

Nor do they disagree with the fact that some players have let themselves and the club down, Saint. Without considering the interplay of these various factors, there won't be much of a thread at all because there'll be nothing to disagree about.

 

[grjt]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43150.msg1232956#msg1232956 date=1292250184]
Nor do they disagree with the fact that some players have let themselves and the club down, Saint. Without considering the interplay of these various factors, there won't be much of a thread at all because there'll be nothing to disagree about.
[/quote]

Some players are good, but not playing well, some players arent good enough, the manager definitely isnt good enough but there arent any alternatives. Shut down the servers, debate over!

 

[Rosco]

How much do people think Roy is affecting us ? We finished 7th last season, we're 9th this season.

If we want to go making excuses for Roy we can point out the negative net spend, losing Mascherano etc etc.

Name any manager you want, this squad is not getting into the top four without absolutely everything going our way. No injuries, Man City implode, Spurs fall apart etc etc. It's highly improbable.

It's not going to be a short journey to back to top four, it will take a couple of years before we offload a lot of the shite in the squad and free up money to spend on better players. We'd be handicapping any new manager by making him take over now and really the job is a bucket of shit at this point in time. We're not going to get anyone we really we want to take it. Our best players are in decline, there's lots of money owed to people who aren't performing or can't perform because they're always injured. There's nothing much in the youth team that's close to making the first team.

If I was a "promising, young manager" TM, I'd be looking at staying away from Liverpool for the next 18 months because it's not going to be pretty.

If i was a

 

[Akakabooto]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43150.msg1232960#msg1232960 date=1292250894]
How much do people think Roy is affecting us ? We finished 7th last season, we're 9th this season.

If we want to go making excuses for Roy we can point out the negative net spend, losing Mascherano etc etc.

Name any manager you want, this squad is not getting into the top four without absolutely everything going our way. No injuries, Man City implode, Spurs fall apart etc etc. It's highly improbable.

It's not going to be a short journey to back to top four, it will take a couple of years before we offload a lot of the shite in the squad and free up money to spend on better players. We'd be handicapping any new manager by making him take over now and really the job is a bucket of shit at this point in time. We're not going to get anyone we really we want to take it. Our best players are in decline, there's lots of money owed to people who aren't performing or can't perform because they're always injured. There's nothing much in the youth team that's close to making the first team.

If I was a "promising, young manager" TM, I'd be looking at staying away from Liverpool for the next 18 months because it's not going to be pretty.

If i was a


[/quote]

But the buck stops with the manager.

 

[Halmeister]

Roy is affecting us big time. Just because we've lost Mascherano doesn't make the squads of Newcastle, Bolton and Sunderland all better than us, does it?

 

[manwithnoname]

So you're saying that Budgie is simply managing the natural decline of a team that came 2nd the year before last, 7th last year and currently 9th? That he's doing as good a job as anyone could do with this team?

Oh wait, you don't think managers make any difference do you?

Ie you're mental

Rendering debate with you largely irrelevant

 

[Pesam]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=43150.msg1232949#msg1232949 date=1292249372]
Neil, a better manager would do better; but just looking at our squad and saying we should be doing better didnt work last year and we had a far better manager.

This squad has SERIOUS weaknesses.

Unfortunately the manager is just easier to replace than the squad, that's all I meant.



[/quote]

Blackpool are level on points with us with a game in hand. Look at their squad and ask yourself how many of these players would you like at LFC and the answer is none BUT they have an alchemist as manager and he is getting far more from the players than even they thought they could give.

Don't tell me Holloway couldn't get 10 extra points for Blackpool this season if he could call on the likes of Torres, Gerrard, Meireles, Carra, Reina, Johnson, Cole, Kuyt etc.


28. Richard Kingson
5. Neal Eardley.........Good player for 1st division Oldham but never mentioned as a possible EPL player
20. Craig Cathcart
6. Ian Evatt..................Couldn't get a game at Championship QPR. 28 yr old lower league journeyman when signed.
3. Stephen Crainey
14. Elliot Grandin (80)
26. Charlie Adam
11. David Vaughan.......rated highly at 2nd division Crewe at first but then his career stalled until.....
12. Gary Taylor-Fletcher.......Deemed surplus to requirements by most fans of 1st division Huddersfield
39. Dudley Campbell...1st Division Brentford fans laughed when they sold him for £500,000.
16. Luke Varney.......28 year old lower league journeyman until this season.
SUBS
13. Mark Halstead (GK)
4. Keith Southern..........Deemed not up to Championship standard by most Blackpool fans 2 years ago.
10. Brett Ormerod.............33 year old lower league journeyman when he signed for Blackpool.
18. Jason Euell
23. Matt Phillips (80)...........At Wycombe last season
24. Rob Edwards
29. David Carney

Add to that other regulars this season including Alex Baptiste who struggled for several seasons at 2nd Division Mansfield and Marlon Harewood who has failed abjectly at this level previously.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43150.msg1232966#msg1232966 date=1292251250]
So you're saying that Budgie is simply managing the natural decline of a team that came 2nd the year before last, 7th last year and currently 9th? That he's doing as good a job as anyone could do with this team?

Oh wait, you don't think managers make any difference do you?

Ie you're mental

Rendering debate with you largely irrelevant
[/quote]

If "Purslow knows NOTHING about Football" and his opinions are largely the same as yours Bren ......... ?

There is a natural decline, it set in because of awful decision making over the last three years. I don't see any manager coming in and immediately turning us into challengers because of the financial situation. There's not a huge amount to spend and any spending has to be done in the light that we can't afford to raise the wage bill without being in contravention of the soon to be in place UEFA rules.

No real change and improvement can occur until the wage bill comes down and we offload all the shite. I'd prefer to do that over the course of the next two years with a view to challenging for the league thereafter as opposed to juggling an overpaid, unbalanced squad into the top 6 over the next couple of years and still being no closer to the league.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Pesam link=topic=43150.msg1232967#msg1232967 date=1292251445]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=43150.msg1232949#msg1232949 date=1292249372]
Neil, a better manager would do better; but just looking at our squad and saying we should be doing better didnt work last year and we had a far better manager.

This squad has SERIOUS weaknesses.

Unfortunately the manager is just easier to replace than the squad, that's all I meant.



[/quote]

Blackpool are level on points with us with a game in hand. Look at their squad and ask yourself how many of these players would you like at LFC and the answer is none BUT they have an alchemist as manager and he is getting far more from the players than even they thought they could give.

Don't tell me Holloway couldn't get 10 extra points for Blackpool this season if he could call on the likes of Torres, Gerrard, Meireles, Carra, Reina, Johnson, Cole, Kuyt etc.


28. Richard Kingson
5. Neal Eardley.........Good player for 1st division Oldham but never mentioned as a possible EPL player
20. Craig Cathcart
6. Ian Evatt..................Couldn't get a game at Championship QPR. 28 yr old lower league journeyman when signed.
3. Stephen Crainey
14. Elliot Grandin (80)
26. Charlie Adam
11. David Vaughan.......rated highly at 2nd division Crewe at first but then his career stalled until.....
12. Gary Taylor-Fletcher.......Deemed surplus to requirements by most fans of 1st division Huddersfield
39. Dudley Campbell...1st Division Brentford fans laughed when they sold him for £500,000.
16. Luke Varney.......28 year old lower league journeyman until this season.
SUBS
13. Mark Halstead (GK)
4. Keith Southern..........Deemed not up to Championship standard by most Blackpool fans 2 years ago.
10. Brett Ormerod.............33 year old lower league journeyman when he signed for Blackpool.
18. Jason Euell
23. Matt Phillips (80)...........At Wycombe last season
24. Rob Edwards
29. David Carney

Add to that other regulars this season including Alex Baptiste who struggled for several seasons at 2nd Division Mansfield and Marlon Harewood who has failed abjectly at this level previously.


[/quote]

It's not unusual for some promoted teams to overperform on promotion. Phil Brown managed it didn't he ?

 

[Asbo]

John Toshack took Swansea from Old Division 4 to top of old Division one in 3 years, Brian Clough stated that THAT was a manager, and was something he or Shankley or Revie would never have been able to do.

 

[Asbo]

Not putting Tosh's name up, just giving an example of what a manager can do.

 

[Pesam]

Never with such meagre signings/wages Ross. No Blackpool player earns more than £10,000 per week and nearly all their signings have been deemed rejects by previous clubs.

Look at burnley last season - they were comfortably middle-table when Coyle left last season and as soon as he left the bombed down the table to finish last. Coyle joined Bolton who were in the bottom 3 at the time, he saved them from relegation and look at them now - they're 5th.

 

[Whitey85]

Is that the side he Holloway put out to beat Stoke away Pesam? It still amazes me that Taylor-Fletcher is in the Premiership. I recall watching him play for Lincoln and laughing at how shit he was! Fair play to him.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=43150.msg1232970#msg1232970 date=1292251989]
John Toshack took Swansea from Old Division 4 to top of old Division one in 3 years, Brian Clough stated that THAT was a manager, and was something he or Shankley or Revie would never have been able to do.
[/quote]

I have no idea when Toshack was managing them, but I'd be willing to bet they suffered massive financial difficulties in the years after the promotions.

i.e. overspending had as much to do with it as anything else.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Pesam link=topic=43150.msg1232972#msg1232972 date=1292252100]
Never with such meagre signings/wages Ross. No Blackpool player earns more than £10,000 per week and nearly all their signings have been deemed rejects by previous clubs.

Look at burnley last season - they were comfortably middle-table when Coyle left last season and as soon as he left the bombed down the table to finish last. Coyle joined Bolton who were in the bottom 3 at the time, he saved them from relegation and look at them now - they're 5th.
[/quote]

True - I think Torres and Gerrard earn more than Blackpool do.

Coyle is an interesting one to watch. Bolton aren't in great financial shape so I don't see him hanging around there long.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43150.msg1232969#msg1232969 date=1292251753]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=43150.msg1232967#msg1232967 date=1292251445]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=43150.msg1232949#msg1232949 date=1292249372]
Neil, a better manager would do better; but just looking at our squad and saying we should be doing better didnt work last year and we had a far better manager.

This squad has SERIOUS weaknesses.

Unfortunately the manager is just easier to replace than the squad, that's all I meant.



[/quote]

Blackpool are level on points with us with a game in hand. Look at their squad and ask yourself how many of these players would you like at LFC and the answer is none BUT they have an alchemist as manager and he is getting far more from the players than even they thought they could give.

Don't tell me Holloway couldn't get 10 extra points for Blackpool this season if he could call on the likes of Torres, Gerrard, Meireles, Carra, Reina, Johnson, Cole, Kuyt etc.


28. Richard Kingson
5. Neal Eardley.........Good player for 1st division Oldham but never mentioned as a possible EPL player
20. Craig Cathcart
6. Ian Evatt..................Couldn't get a game at Championship QPR. 28 yr old lower league journeyman when signed.
3. Stephen Crainey
14. Elliot Grandin (80)
26. Charlie Adam
11. David Vaughan.......rated highly at 2nd division Crewe at first but then his career stalled until.....
12. Gary Taylor-Fletcher.......Deemed surplus to requirements by most fans of 1st division Huddersfield
39. Dudley Campbell...1st Division Brentford fans laughed when they sold him for £500,000.
16. Luke Varney.......28 year old lower league journeyman until this season.
SUBS
13. Mark Halstead (GK)
4. Keith Southern..........Deemed not up to Championship standard by most Blackpool fans 2 years ago.
10. Brett Ormerod.............33 year old lower league journeyman when he signed for Blackpool.
18. Jason Euell
23. Matt Phillips (80)...........At Wycombe last season
24. Rob Edwards
29. David Carney

Add to that other regulars this season including Alex Baptiste who struggled for several seasons at 2nd Division Mansfield and Marlon Harewood who has failed abjectly at this level previously.


[/quote]

It's not unusual for some promoted teams to overperform on promotion. Phil Brown managed it didn't he ?
[/quote]



1 Arsenal 16 10 2 4 34 18 16 32
2 Manchester City 17 9 5 3 24 13 11 32
3 Manchester United 15 8 7 0 35 16 19 31
4 Chelsea 17 9 4 4 31 12 19 31
5 Tottenham Hotspur 17 7 6 4 25 22 3 27
6 Bolton Wanderers 17 6 8 3 30 24 6 26
7 Sunderland 17 5 9 3 20 18 2 24
8 Newcastle United 17 6 4 7 27 26 1 22
9 Liverpool 17 6 4 7 21 22 -1 22
10 Blackpool 16 6 4 6 24 29 -5 22

so bolton, s'land and n'castle are were they are because they are overachieving and we are were we are because we have a rubbish squad?

 

[Hansern]

So it's not the managers fault that he has lost 6 of his 9 away games using the same tactic every match, which hasn't worked once??!!!

A better manager would have gotten us at least 8-10 more points.

 

[Pesam]

[quote author=Whitey85 link=topic=43150.msg1232973#msg1232973 date=1292252138]
Is that the side he Holloway put out to beat Stoke away Pesam? It still amazes me that Taylor-Fletcher is in the Premiership. I recall watching him play for Lincoln and laughing at how shit he was! Fair play to him.
[/quote]

I never saw him play for Lincoln Whitey but I saw him many times for huddersfield in the 1st division. He had decent technique but hardly stood out from the crowd and most of the Huddersfield fans wanted rid of him. Holloway has turned him into a regular in the EPL, imagine what he could do for Nando.

Edit: And yes that was his line-up for the Stoke game.

 

[spider-Neil]

anyone who thinks a manager has nothing to do with the destiny of a team is insane. there are LOADS of examples of teams that have improved/declined with the departure/arrival of the manager.

look at spurs and rednapp.
look at valencia and rafa.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=43150.msg1232981#msg1232981 date=1292252608]
So it's not the managers fault that he has lost 6 of his 9 away games using the same tactic every match, which hasn't worked once??!!!

A better manager would have gotten us at least 8-10 more points.

[/quote]

a 'competent' showing away from home would have us in the mix for the TITLE never mind fucking 4th place.

 

[grjt]

ONE AWAY WIN IN TWENTY SEVEN PREMIERSHIP GAMES.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=grjt link=topic=43150.msg1232986#msg1232986 date=1292252980]
ONE AWAY WIN IN TWENTY SEVEN PREMIERSHIP GAMES.
[/quote]

there are probably some members on 6CM that would improve on that total never mind experienced proffesionals.