• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Hoofing

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rosco

Worse than Brendan
Member
Since people love to talk about this all the time and routinely mention it when criticising our defenders, particularly Skrtel and Carragher I thought I'd breeze through the stats this season to see how bad our hoofing has been.


So with our most recent game first:

Chelsea 4/10:

Skrtel - 15 passes of which 1 was unsuccessful. 6 Clearances, one of which went to a Chelsea player.
Carragher - 24 passes, all found an LFC player. 10 Clearances, 5 of which went to the opposition.

Skrtel's longest pass was about 35 yards (a third of the pitch), and it was his only unsuccessful one. Carragher's longest pass was a 30 yard one to Babel.

In summary - Our centre backs gave the ball away 7 times out of 55 attempts on the ball. It's worth bearing in mind that those 7 include times when the defenders had no option but to get rid of the ball. All in all that's 79% of the time they had to deal with the ball they found a teammate.

Hull 26/9:

Skrtel - 42 passes, 1 unsuccessful. 9 clearances, 4 of which found a Hull Player.
Carragher - 50 passes, 1 unsuccessful. 6 clearances, 4 of which resulted in possession being lost.

Again the passing charts show no evidence of long balls, the longest balls they both played happened to be backpasses to Reina.

In summary - 107 times they were on the ball, 9 times they gave possession away. That's something like an 89% success rate.

West Ham 19/09

Carragher - 29 passes, all on target. 5 clearances, 1 of which gave possession away.
Skrtel - 35 passes, 2 unsuccessful ones. 3 clearances, 3 times the ball went to the opposition.

72 possessions, 6 times the ball was given away. 88% success rate. No evidence of long balls being played.


Burnley 12/9

Carragher - 50 passes, 1 unsuccessful. 7 clearances, 3 lost possession.
Skrtel - 37 passes, 4 unsuccessful. 12 clearances, 6 lost possession.

106 possessions, 14 times resulted in losing possession. 86% success rate. No evidence of long balls up the field.



Do I need to go on ?

Basically given that our defenders keep possession better than most Premiership midfielders I think the level of criticism that they receive for "hoofing" is completely over the top.
 
That's 100% geek right there. But I'm glad you showed it, might shut the Agger=Beckenbaeur brigade up for a second.

I'm convinced United and Chelsea 'hoof' it more than us too.
 
Interesting stats Ross but how many of those long balls were lost after say a flick on or a header?

How many actually retained possession for more than one pass?
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36308.msg958887#msg958887 date=1254875899]
Interesting stats Ross but how many of those long balls were lost after say a flick on or a header?

How many actually retained possession for more than one pass?
[/quote]

Jesus he'll have to sit down and watch all the games again now.
 
I fucking despise the long ball out of defence.

But, since I been up for 30 hours studying for an exam which I just nailed - I'm not going to go into why I despise it.

Instead, I'm off to bed.

Peace out.
 
[quote author=Roopy link=topic=36308.msg958900#msg958900 date=1254880803]
I fucking despise the long ball out of defence.

But, since I been up for 30 hours studying for an exam which I just nailed - I'm not going to go into why I despise it.

Instead, I'm off to bed.

Peace out.
[/quote]

This.
 
If we played it to Kuyt and Kuyt only I'd be ok with a Route 1 attempt every once in a while. But otherwise I agree.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36308.msg958902#msg958902 date=1254881029]
I assume this includes passes to each other, to the full backs and Reina.


[/quote]

Exactly..

the stat i would like to see is how many of those passes succesfully found a midfielder...

teams are likely to try and stop the defenders giving the ball to a midfielder. Who gives a shit if the defenders pass it back and forth between each other without threatening to move the ball forward quickly enough to cause any issues. i saw very little forward passing that caused any issues to Chelsea's shape.

here's a stat.. passes by Liverpool defenders that actually helped start an attack - ZERO
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36308.msg958908#msg958908 date=1254885691]
Why?
[/quote]

Kuyt is good in the air, he really brings the players around him into play. His header back to Sneijder in the Euros was spectacular. His chest down for Torres goal a few games back was also brilliant.  Torres doesn't do this job so well.  Kuyt does and I like to be able to try different things as a team.

edit: its nothing big, just I think Reina or Agger if they feel they can get an attack started quickly it should go through Dirka. 2 or 3 times a game max
 
Skrtel is just a decent defender. I wish Agger can start our next game alongside Carra. As for Carra, he needs a little rest. Play the Greek statue.
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36308.msg958887#msg958887 date=1254875899]
Interesting stats Ross but how many of those long balls were lost after say a flick on or a header?

[/quote]


I'm not sure they've produced differening categories of post-long ball actions.
 
What a shame Agger's not in there then. We'd have gotten even nearer that 100% success rate in passing, both short range and from our own 6 yard box straight on to Torres' toe at the other end, maybe even occasionally cutting Torres out and just putting it straight in the top corner.


Shucks.
 
Sad i know but what are Reina's stats for "long passes?" He does seem the be better than the rest with his distribution bar his one miskick down the middle each game.
 
most of the defenders hoofing is not their fault.

If you have nobody to pass to then you only have two choices, beat the man or launch it (bar passing back to Pepe)

The issue in the past was the midfielders backed off and went away from the ball expecting the hoof.

Quality midfielders are comfortable on the ball and don't mind receiving it when someone is behind them, then they pass and move to get up the pitch.

Spain are the best team I have seen for this in years, the defence always has an option of a short pass.
 
I don't mind passing it back to Reina as long as Reina then proceeds to use it sensibly. His distribution is usually excellent, but I really hate the habit we have of passing the ball from the middle of the opposition half all the way back to the keeper, who then boots it aimlessly forward and attack becomes defence. I know sometimes the options aren't there, but keep PASSING it, don't go all the way back for Reina to kick it back towards you. If we must lose possession I'd rather it be from a misplaced pass to a forward. Sunderland did exactly yhe same thing on Saturday - turning back 40 yards from the mancs' goal and passing all the way back to Gordon, who then kicked it straight to O'Shea. What is the point? What do our defenders do in training every day? Pass along the line to each other and then take it in turns to belt it forward? It really shouldn't be that difficult to keep possession in such areas and move ahead sensibly.
 
I want to know how many of the successful passes completed by carra and skrtel were between each other.

to me
to you
to me
to you

x654.jpg
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36308.msg959008#msg959008 date=1254907597]

x654.jpg


[/quote]

Aldo and Rushie. Those were the days.





(To paraphrase WH Auden: if you think those faces look wrinkled, just imagine what their bollocks look like!)
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36308.msg959010#msg959010 date=1254907897]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36308.msg959008#msg959008 date=1254907597]

x654.jpg


[/quote]

Aldo and Rushie. Those were the days.






[/quote]

;D
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36308.msg959002#msg959002 date=1254906459]
I don't mind passing it back to Reina as long as Reina then proceeds to use it sensibly. His distribution is usually excellent, but I really hate the habit we have of passing the ball from the middle of the opposition half all the way back to the keeper, who then boots it aimlessly forward and attack becomes defence. I know sometimes the options aren't there, but keep PASSING it, don't go all the way back for Reina to kick it back towards you. If we must lose possession I'd rather it be from a misplaced pass to a forward. Sunderland did exactly yhe same thing on Saturday - turning back 40 yards from the mancs' goal and passing all the way back to Gordon, who then kicked it straight to O'Shea. What is the point? What do our defenders do in training every day? Pass along the line to each other and then take it in turns to belt it forward? It really shouldn't be that difficult to keep possession in such areas and move ahead sensibly.
[/quote]

I think that's my number one irritation. It sometimes occurs even when the opposition is still stretched and trying to reorganise, and we proceed not only to let then off completely, but give them the chance to compete for a headed ball with Lucas and Masher. Easy pickings.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36308.msg958882#msg958882 date=1254873991]
That's 100% geek right there. But I'm glad you showed it, might shut the Agger=Beckenbaeur brigade up for a second.

I'm convinced United and Chelsea 'hoof' it more than us too.
[/quote]

I briefly considered investigating that last night, but my bed was calling.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36308.msg958982#msg958982 date=1254904348]
What a shame Agger's not in there then. We'd have gotten even nearer that 100% success rate in passing, both short range and from our own 6 yard box straight on to Torres' toe at the other end, maybe even occasionally cutting Torres out and just putting it straight in the top corner.


Shucks.
[/quote]

In those games I mentioned in the beginning there isn't one pass from either Skrtel or Carragher aimed up to Torres.

I thought all they did was hoof the ball ....
 
It seemed like all of those clearances against Chelsea happened in the last 20 mins when we we're under pressure to get higher up the pitch.

Was it just me?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36308.msg959032#msg959032 date=1254910390]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36308.msg958882#msg958882 date=1254873991]
That's 100% geek right there. But I'm glad you showed it, might shut the Agger=Beckenbaeur brigade up for a second.

I'm convinced United and Chelsea 'hoof' it more than us too.
[/quote]

I briefly considered investigating that last night, but my bed was calling.
[/quote]

You can do it tonight then, eh?!

Seriously, it's interesting stuff & disproves a lot of our own fans criticisms.
 
I don't think it disproves them Jon, I've seen both Skrtel and Carragher hoof the ball away unneccesarily but I think the complaints are generally blown out of proportion and the info definitely backs that up.

Re United and Chelsea - I'll have a look, but not tonight. I'll do Arsenal too to see if their image stands up to scrutiny.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36308.msg958982#msg958982 date=1254904348]
What a shame Agger's not in there then. We'd have gotten even nearer that 100% success rate in passing, both short range and from our own 6 yard box straight on to Torres' toe at the other end, maybe even occasionally cutting Torres out and just putting it straight in the top corner.


Shucks.
[/quote]

Ha!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom