A comparison and interesting analysis
http://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/two-derbies-two-manager/
http://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/two-derbies-two-manager/
Hodgson's approach to Derby vs Rafa's approach
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Photos, arrows, AND red circles. Red circles Ryan. Step your game up.
Honestly though, we already knew that (too deep a line, no play down the flanks, disconnected attack) but it is interesting to see it all laid out in comparison. And by interesting I mean depressing.
To be fair to Hodgson, we exhibited many of these issues last year as well, although rather than address them, it's clear Hodgson has worsened things. The fact is that our system would require very VERY clever play between a few brilliant attacking players to work. Instead we've an out of form disillusioned Torres, an OK player in Cole, and then a whole mess of mediocrity with Jova, Maxi, Babel etc. We need to be able to build attacks as a team, commit forward and hem the opponents into their half, and not only is that difficult for all the reasons outlined on the website, even if we get there, we've now not got any ball winning CMs to deal with that position, which means that we're highly rapable on a counter with ponderous DMs, CBs, and weakness on the flanks.
Honestly though, we already knew that (too deep a line, no play down the flanks, disconnected attack) but it is interesting to see it all laid out in comparison. And by interesting I mean depressing.
To be fair to Hodgson, we exhibited many of these issues last year as well, although rather than address them, it's clear Hodgson has worsened things. The fact is that our system would require very VERY clever play between a few brilliant attacking players to work. Instead we've an out of form disillusioned Torres, an OK player in Cole, and then a whole mess of mediocrity with Jova, Maxi, Babel etc. We need to be able to build attacks as a team, commit forward and hem the opponents into their half, and not only is that difficult for all the reasons outlined on the website, even if we get there, we've now not got any ball winning CMs to deal with that position, which means that we're highly rapable on a counter with ponderous DMs, CBs, and weakness on the flanks.
S
Squiggles
Guest
Decent read, cheers.
Hahahaha
Great fence-sitting work from the inappropriately-named Buddha there
Great fence-sitting work from the inappropriately-named Buddha there
Ha, wish this wouldve come out last week. Me & my mate in work did just that comparison using about 15000 bits of paper & scrawling all over them .
We came to the same conclusions. It seems everyone can see the problems except the manager, be it Rafa or Roy.
We came to the same conclusions. It seems everyone can see the problems except the manager, be it Rafa or Roy.
One thing it did highlight is the amount Cole is working behind the halfway line, it does make sense seeing it laid out like that why he's struggling, that just isnt his game.
Excellent piece, thanks.
One thing to consider, Rafa is trying to do the reverse change in tactics with Inter. Mourinho's Inter liked to sit deep and keep the shape most of the time and the way they hurt opponents was through precisely choreographed counter-attacks. Now Rafa is trying to bring his high pressing approach to Inter and that's why Inter had some problems at first, losing the Super Cup to Altetico and playing poorly in defense in the early rounds of Serie A. Players were not used to running so much and team defense couldn't handle increased space between the lines. Now Eto'o is on fire and results have been encouraging, even though not all defensive problems have been sorted out yet (as evidenced by Gareth Bale hat-trick the other day).
I guess my point is, Roy's approach is very different from Rafa's, but it is justifiable. Roy is far from the only manager who wants his team to defend compact and narrow, he is in the same camp as Mourinho in that regard. The question is, can he guide the team through this inevitably painful transition from one system to another fast enough, before the wheels start coming off the wagon? Rafa seems to be managing to do just that with Inter and Mourihno has enough charisma and force of personality to withstand any doubts or criticism (let's remember that his Inter team were less than stellar in the first year and a half of his tenure. Nowhere near relegation zone, mind you.) If Roy has enough self-belief and inner confidence and manages not to lose the players' trust after a string of bad results, he can still get through this.
One thing to consider, Rafa is trying to do the reverse change in tactics with Inter. Mourinho's Inter liked to sit deep and keep the shape most of the time and the way they hurt opponents was through precisely choreographed counter-attacks. Now Rafa is trying to bring his high pressing approach to Inter and that's why Inter had some problems at first, losing the Super Cup to Altetico and playing poorly in defense in the early rounds of Serie A. Players were not used to running so much and team defense couldn't handle increased space between the lines. Now Eto'o is on fire and results have been encouraging, even though not all defensive problems have been sorted out yet (as evidenced by Gareth Bale hat-trick the other day).
I guess my point is, Roy's approach is very different from Rafa's, but it is justifiable. Roy is far from the only manager who wants his team to defend compact and narrow, he is in the same camp as Mourinho in that regard. The question is, can he guide the team through this inevitably painful transition from one system to another fast enough, before the wheels start coming off the wagon? Rafa seems to be managing to do just that with Inter and Mourihno has enough charisma and force of personality to withstand any doubts or criticism (let's remember that his Inter team were less than stellar in the first year and a half of his tenure. Nowhere near relegation zone, mind you.) If Roy has enough self-belief and inner confidence and manages not to lose the players' trust after a string of bad results, he can still get through this.
Roy's approach would be justifiable if we had players with the technical ability, confidence, and pace to be able to counterattack in small numbers effectively, and a ball winning midfielder.
To continue where I left off in the previous post, I think I wouldn't mind seeing a counter-attacking Liverpool team as opposed to a high-pressing one we had under Rafa. Don't forget that constant pressing takes a lot of effort and stamina so much so that when we did win the ball, we could not do anything creative with it. Pressing style favors industrious but otherwise unspectacular players like Kuyt and Lucas (which is why Rafa's first order of business in Inter was to try to get Dirk follow him to Milan), whereas counterattacking style favors fast and decisive players. I could see Torres and especially Gerrard eventually being more comfortable in a counterattacking team than Rafa's team. Even someone like Babel might find a new life in a system that uses his pace more and doesn't overload him with defensive responsibilities beyond simply keeping the shape. The advantage of compact defense is that (when it works) it doesn't require world-class defenders to be solid because it is based on limiting the opponents space rather than individual tackling brilliance of someone like Mascherano. Yes, it invites pressure, but on the other hand, your attacking players will have more space to run into if you manage to escape that pressure and switch from defense to attack quickly. This is what was not working against Everton, the counterattacking game was non-existent and we were under constant pressure and couldn't break out. Blaming the compact system for it is an oversimplification; the real question is why wasn't our counterattack working. I wonder who was to blame, was it Maxi or Joe Cole not positioning themselves right for a pass, was it Gerrard dropping too deep, or defenders unable to pass the ball calmly under pressure? Or was the team unprepared for Everton pressing so high up the pitch and simply did not know what to do (that would be the manager's fault)? In any case, this needs to be calmly and quickly sorted out by the manager and the team.
The real and decisive issue for Roy will be the trust and respect of his players. If he manages to get players to listen to him and trust in his approach even when things are not working, he will ride out the storm. If he starts to doubt himself he will lose the plot and the team very quickly. My guess is it hasn't happened yet, as all statements from the players as well as the owners have been of unequivocal support. If Roy did fall out with Torres, as the rumour stated, he would have been gone already. I am sure it would take just a couple of words from Torres and Gerrard to get Roy fired in this situation. That hasn't happened. So far the only people who think that Roy is a dead man walking are fans and the media - the two groups who are the least informed about what's going on inside and whose opinions should not be decisive on such matters anyway.
The real and decisive issue for Roy will be the trust and respect of his players. If he manages to get players to listen to him and trust in his approach even when things are not working, he will ride out the storm. If he starts to doubt himself he will lose the plot and the team very quickly. My guess is it hasn't happened yet, as all statements from the players as well as the owners have been of unequivocal support. If Roy did fall out with Torres, as the rumour stated, he would have been gone already. I am sure it would take just a couple of words from Torres and Gerrard to get Roy fired in this situation. That hasn't happened. So far the only people who think that Roy is a dead man walking are fans and the media - the two groups who are the least informed about what's going on inside and whose opinions should not be decisive on such matters anyway.
S
Squiggles
Guest
I wish you would post more often.
Why isn't it working? A culmination of reasons such as low confidence and as you point out yourself, the lack of suitable players for such a system.
For a team so intent on counter-attacking, we spend a lot of time passing it about in our half sheepishly between defenders. And we spend a lot of time hoofing it up the field because there is not enough movement or technical ability to play our way out of trouble.
For a team so intent on counter-attacking, we spend a lot of time passing it about in our half sheepishly between defenders. And we spend a lot of time hoofing it up the field because there is not enough movement or technical ability to play our way out of trouble.
It's not working simply because it doesn't suit the resources (players) that we have available.
That's what is pissing me off most. Roy is an experienced manager but is stubbornly trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
That's what is pissing me off most. Roy is an experienced manager but is stubbornly trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
roy's tactics were obvious from the man city game. roy employed he exact same tactics v arsenal but as we were down to 10 men no one batted an eyelid. truth is, these are roy's tactics regardless of the opposition, home or away.
if the board give him time and money, he (roy) will go out and perfect those bullshit tactics will players better suited to carry his instructions out.
if the board give him time and money, he (roy) will go out and perfect those bullshit tactics will players better suited to carry his instructions out.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42381.msg1203941#msg1203941 date=1287805226]
I wish you would post more often.
[/quote]
x 2
I always stop and take the time to read Rurikbird's posts.
They nearly always make very interesting reading.
I wish you would post more often.
[/quote]
x 2
I always stop and take the time to read Rurikbird's posts.
They nearly always make very interesting reading.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42381.msg1203962#msg1203962 date=1287820958]
roy's tactics were obvious from the man city game. roy employed he exact same tactics v arsenal but as we were down to 10 men no one batted an eyelid. truth is, these are roy's tactics regardless of the opposition, home or away.
if the board give him time and money, he (roy) will go out and perfect those bullshit tactics will players better suited to carry his instructions out.
[/quote]
Nah. He played straight 442 in the citeh game because Twatserano fucked up the plan - I don't think we've tried that since.
roy's tactics were obvious from the man city game. roy employed he exact same tactics v arsenal but as we were down to 10 men no one batted an eyelid. truth is, these are roy's tactics regardless of the opposition, home or away.
if the board give him time and money, he (roy) will go out and perfect those bullshit tactics will players better suited to carry his instructions out.
[/quote]
Nah. He played straight 442 in the citeh game because Twatserano fucked up the plan - I don't think we've tried that since.
[quote author=the count link=topic=42381.msg1204002#msg1204002 date=1287826117]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42381.msg1203941#msg1203941 date=1287805226]
I wish you would post more often.
[/quote]
x 2
I always stop and take the time to read Rurikbird's posts.
They nearly always make very interesting reading.
[/quote]
They do, but there are things I disagree with in his post this time, namely:
1. My guess (and I admit that's what it is at this stage) is he's already lost the players, at least the ones that matter. I base that on their utterly flat, almost dejected displays on the pitch.
2. I don't agree that Roy will ride out the storm if he gets the players to believe in his approach. Neither of those things is at all likely, because Roy's approach won't work with the squad we have and the players know it already.
3. While it's true that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, that applies as much to the question whether or not the players have expressed dissatisfaction. The rumours about Torres are pretty persistent and there have been similar ones about Pepe.
4. Torres would not have gone already, even if he has fallen out with Roy. He couldn't go till January.
In short, IMO the situation looks more fluid and unstable than rurikbird suggests. In one way that may be wishful thinking, since I want Roy gone by yesterday, but I reckon it's the way the signs are pointing.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42381.msg1203941#msg1203941 date=1287805226]
I wish you would post more often.
[/quote]
x 2
I always stop and take the time to read Rurikbird's posts.
They nearly always make very interesting reading.
[/quote]
They do, but there are things I disagree with in his post this time, namely:
1. My guess (and I admit that's what it is at this stage) is he's already lost the players, at least the ones that matter. I base that on their utterly flat, almost dejected displays on the pitch.
2. I don't agree that Roy will ride out the storm if he gets the players to believe in his approach. Neither of those things is at all likely, because Roy's approach won't work with the squad we have and the players know it already.
3. While it's true that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, that applies as much to the question whether or not the players have expressed dissatisfaction. The rumours about Torres are pretty persistent and there have been similar ones about Pepe.
4. Torres would not have gone already, even if he has fallen out with Roy. He couldn't go till January.
In short, IMO the situation looks more fluid and unstable than rurikbird suggests. In one way that may be wishful thinking, since I want Roy gone by yesterday, but I reckon it's the way the signs are pointing.
Torres, Gerard, Joe Cole, Babel and N'Gog are all well suited for a counterattacking tactic. Actually you would struggle to find a better counterattacking midfielder than Gerrard in all of the world football. It's the positional play where he is less spectacular - Stevie is no Xavi. But we definitely have enough players for the new system. The problem is, we don't have a system. Yet.
I just went to my archive and watched the 1st half against Everton (masochist that I am) and then, 2nd half from february's derby. I wanted to find out if our defensive line is deeper now than it was under Rafa. Visually, it doesn't seem so. But back in February, we seemed to use offside trap more. There was a moment when Carra literally pushed his teammate forward, trying to create an offside trap (didn't work that time, Insua got stuck ball-watching as usual). This time, Carra couldn't marshal the defense to the same degree from RB, while Skrtel and Kyrgyakos ran towards their goal too often, which led to Everton players cleverly cutting the ball back just in behind them and creating panic in our penalty box. Maybe that's just lack of confidence on our defenders' part. Hopefully we'll do better with Carra in the middle.
The reason why we couldn't get the ball out of our half in the first 20 minutes is now more clear to me after watching this for the 2nd time. Everton were pressing very high and that created huge problems for us because we didn't happen to have a single defender who was comfortable and assured on the ball. Carra and Konchesky are not useful outlets on the flanks, all they could do was to pass it right back to CBs. Lucas was not much help in terms of starting attacks and Meireles, who should be good on the ball, got a bit overwhelmed, I think he was unprepared for the way Everton were pressing and flying into tackles inside our own half. Maxi and especially Joe Cole tried to help by dropping deep, but that only insured that we never an open player to pass to who was not deep in our own half and under pressure. We missed Agger and Johnson and IMO Roy made a big mistake by pushing Gerrard up front from the start - he should have at least started the game at DM in place of Meireles (or Lucas). After Everton stopped pressing, our game suddenly looked much better, but by then it was too late. Everton were content to sit deep and defend their lead and breaking down teams like this was never our strength even in best seasons under Rafa. You have to admit, Moyes has managed that game beautifully.
I just went to my archive and watched the 1st half against Everton (masochist that I am) and then, 2nd half from february's derby. I wanted to find out if our defensive line is deeper now than it was under Rafa. Visually, it doesn't seem so. But back in February, we seemed to use offside trap more. There was a moment when Carra literally pushed his teammate forward, trying to create an offside trap (didn't work that time, Insua got stuck ball-watching as usual). This time, Carra couldn't marshal the defense to the same degree from RB, while Skrtel and Kyrgyakos ran towards their goal too often, which led to Everton players cleverly cutting the ball back just in behind them and creating panic in our penalty box. Maybe that's just lack of confidence on our defenders' part. Hopefully we'll do better with Carra in the middle.
The reason why we couldn't get the ball out of our half in the first 20 minutes is now more clear to me after watching this for the 2nd time. Everton were pressing very high and that created huge problems for us because we didn't happen to have a single defender who was comfortable and assured on the ball. Carra and Konchesky are not useful outlets on the flanks, all they could do was to pass it right back to CBs. Lucas was not much help in terms of starting attacks and Meireles, who should be good on the ball, got a bit overwhelmed, I think he was unprepared for the way Everton were pressing and flying into tackles inside our own half. Maxi and especially Joe Cole tried to help by dropping deep, but that only insured that we never an open player to pass to who was not deep in our own half and under pressure. We missed Agger and Johnson and IMO Roy made a big mistake by pushing Gerrard up front from the start - he should have at least started the game at DM in place of Meireles (or Lucas). After Everton stopped pressing, our game suddenly looked much better, but by then it was too late. Everton were content to sit deep and defend their lead and breaking down teams like this was never our strength even in best seasons under Rafa. You have to admit, Moyes has managed that game beautifully.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=42381.msg1204054#msg1204054 date=1287831598]
4. Torres would not have gone already, even if he has fallen out with Roy. He couldn't go till January.
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I meant that had Roy truly fallen out with Torres, Roy (not Torres) would have been gone already. Firing an under-fire manager is easy, a star player holds much more power. The owners are not stupid. If it would ever come down to a choice between Torres and Roy, they would fire Roy in a heartbeat. I am sure he knows that himself. The fact that it hasn't happened leads me to believe that rumors about star players falling out with the manager are either false or grossly exaggerated.
4. Torres would not have gone already, even if he has fallen out with Roy. He couldn't go till January.
[/quote]
I meant that had Roy truly fallen out with Torres, Roy (not Torres) would have been gone already. Firing an under-fire manager is easy, a star player holds much more power. The owners are not stupid. If it would ever come down to a choice between Torres and Roy, they would fire Roy in a heartbeat. I am sure he knows that himself. The fact that it hasn't happened leads me to believe that rumors about star players falling out with the manager are either false or grossly exaggerated.
It's certainly true that NESV are far from stupid, but that doesn't make it likely that they would jump straight into firing a manager when they've only just begun to learn about the game and the club, especially given that they probably had advice from Broughton and Purslow to give Roy more time.
Re your analysis of the match and our tactics generally, I agree about Gerrard playing too far forward too soon in that game but the rest of what you say makes my point for me. My point, by which I stand, was that we don't have the overall squad to play counterattack, and that was demonstrated very well in the derby where , if the squad HAD been suited to counterattack, we'd have shown it. I simply don't believe Roy or anybody else was in any doubt that we'd be pressed high up the pitch, but Torres, Gerrard and the other attacking players you mention can't counterattack without the ball and we didn't have the players to get it to them.
Re your analysis of the match and our tactics generally, I agree about Gerrard playing too far forward too soon in that game but the rest of what you say makes my point for me. My point, by which I stand, was that we don't have the overall squad to play counterattack, and that was demonstrated very well in the derby where , if the squad HAD been suited to counterattack, we'd have shown it. I simply don't believe Roy or anybody else was in any doubt that we'd be pressed high up the pitch, but Torres, Gerrard and the other attacking players you mention can't counterattack without the ball and we didn't have the players to get it to them.
You can sum our tactical issues up easily.
There's a deep sitting defence who arent drilled enough to keep the opposition offside.
There's a midfield which isnt cohesive sitting right in front of them with zero width.
About 50 yards further up the pitch there's a pissed off & disaffected looking Torres with no service whatsoever.
There's a deep sitting defence who arent drilled enough to keep the opposition offside.
There's a midfield which isnt cohesive sitting right in front of them with zero width.
About 50 yards further up the pitch there's a pissed off & disaffected looking Torres with no service whatsoever.
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