Henry Speaks to RAWK
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[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42483.msg1219140#msg1219140 date=1289905011]
And I'm accused of straw man arguments?
I don't rate either of them.
[/quote]
I didn't accuse you of anything
And I'm accused of straw man arguments?
I don't rate either of them.
[/quote]
I didn't accuse you of anything
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42483.msg1219140#msg1219140 date=1289905011]
And I'm accused of straw man arguments?
I don't rate either of them.
[/quote]
That's not the answer to the question you were asked...
And I'm accused of straw man arguments?
I don't rate either of them.
[/quote]
That's not the answer to the question you were asked...
to the charge that benitez ruined us with big wage increases, 2 points:
1. maybe i'm naive, but how much power does a manager actually have in handing out big contracts? surely that's the board's responsibility? i accept that benitez would be largely responsible for high wages paid to mediocre free transfers like voronin, degen and jovanovic because he's targeted them as free transfers presumably in the knowledge that they'll receive big contracts in lieu of a transfer fee (although you still have to give credit for saving that transfer fee, no matter how substandard the player). what i don't accept is benitez being blamed for big contracts for the likes of daniel agger or glen johnson - even if he'd wanted the contracts approved, it would still have been the responsibility of the directors to go ahead or not.
2. the increase of £65m (2004) to £120m (2010) is cited as evidence that benitez wasted our money on exorbitant wages, but you need a proper, intelligent, analysis before you can start laying blame. what was our turnover in 2004? has it increased by a similar percentage to wages? what were other clubs' wage bills in 2004? what are they now? what was the wage/turnover ratio in 2004? what is it now? what were other clubs' wage/turnover ratios in 2004? what are they now?
ok, i have to say i find it pretty difficult to find accurate figures for our historical financial years, but the following page looks to be pretty good: http://www.footballeconomy.com/content/liverpool-football-club-and-athletic-grounds-plc
that shows revenue in 2003/04 of £92m, giving an approximate increase between then and y/e 2010 of 117%. it also shows wage/turnover percentage of 60% when rafa took over the anfield hotseat, just as it is now.
so, tbf rosco, looks like you're right yet again! remind us all once more how benitez also managed to ruin a brilliant houllier defence - that was another piece of rock-solid analysis i'm sure we all remember fondly.
1. maybe i'm naive, but how much power does a manager actually have in handing out big contracts? surely that's the board's responsibility? i accept that benitez would be largely responsible for high wages paid to mediocre free transfers like voronin, degen and jovanovic because he's targeted them as free transfers presumably in the knowledge that they'll receive big contracts in lieu of a transfer fee (although you still have to give credit for saving that transfer fee, no matter how substandard the player). what i don't accept is benitez being blamed for big contracts for the likes of daniel agger or glen johnson - even if he'd wanted the contracts approved, it would still have been the responsibility of the directors to go ahead or not.
2. the increase of £65m (2004) to £120m (2010) is cited as evidence that benitez wasted our money on exorbitant wages, but you need a proper, intelligent, analysis before you can start laying blame. what was our turnover in 2004? has it increased by a similar percentage to wages? what were other clubs' wage bills in 2004? what are they now? what was the wage/turnover ratio in 2004? what is it now? what were other clubs' wage/turnover ratios in 2004? what are they now?
ok, i have to say i find it pretty difficult to find accurate figures for our historical financial years, but the following page looks to be pretty good: http://www.footballeconomy.com/content/liverpool-football-club-and-athletic-grounds-plc
that shows revenue in 2003/04 of £92m, giving an approximate increase between then and y/e 2010 of 117%. it also shows wage/turnover percentage of 60% when rafa took over the anfield hotseat, just as it is now.
so, tbf rosco, looks like you're right yet again! remind us all once more how benitez also managed to ruin a brilliant houllier defence - that was another piece of rock-solid analysis i'm sure we all remember fondly.
I've never been quite sure how much say the manager has in player contracts and transfer fees but if Parry or whoever is to blame for everything financial that went wrong then it figures that he'd be credited for everything financial that went well too, such as making profits on players, which Benitez tends to get the credit for on here.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219419#msg1219419 date=1289931322]
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42483.msg1219422#msg1219422 date=1289931961]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219419#msg1219419 date=1289931322]
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
[/quote]
oh don't worry i'm not trying to counter or anything. I'm just confused as i presumed he had that power after parry left. Otherwise, what was the point in shifting parry?
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219419#msg1219419 date=1289931322]
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
[/quote]
oh don't worry i'm not trying to counter or anything. I'm just confused as i presumed he had that power after parry left. Otherwise, what was the point in shifting parry?
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42483.msg1219420#msg1219420 date=1289931572]
I've never been quite sure how much say the manager has in player contracts and transfer fees but if Parry or whoever is to blame for everything financial that went wrong then it figures that he'd be credited for everything financial that went well too, such as making profits on players, which Benitez tends to get the credit for on here.
[/quote]
i think a bit of common sense is the obvious answer. for example, i happen to think that the board got a great deal (financially) when we sold alonso for £30m, so benitez doesn't deserve all the credit for all of the profit (nominal terms) we made on the player. likewise, benitez shouldn't be blamed for the club making a small loss on mascherano (hard to know if it was a small loss or a small profit, but whatever) because he couldn't have forseen when signing the player the circumstances that would later reduce his market value from £25m+ to under £20m.
I've never been quite sure how much say the manager has in player contracts and transfer fees but if Parry or whoever is to blame for everything financial that went wrong then it figures that he'd be credited for everything financial that went well too, such as making profits on players, which Benitez tends to get the credit for on here.
[/quote]
i think a bit of common sense is the obvious answer. for example, i happen to think that the board got a great deal (financially) when we sold alonso for £30m, so benitez doesn't deserve all the credit for all of the profit (nominal terms) we made on the player. likewise, benitez shouldn't be blamed for the club making a small loss on mascherano (hard to know if it was a small loss or a small profit, but whatever) because he couldn't have forseen when signing the player the circumstances that would later reduce his market value from £25m+ to under £20m.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219423#msg1219423 date=1289932091]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42483.msg1219422#msg1219422 date=1289931961]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219419#msg1219419 date=1289931322]
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
[/quote]
oh don't worry i'm not trying to counter or anything. I'm just confused as i presumed he had that power after parry left. Otherwise, what was the point in shifting parry?
[/quote]
i thought it was to get more control over the actual transfer budget, rather than the wages budget - that and more power over the academy etc.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42483.msg1219422#msg1219422 date=1289931961]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219419#msg1219419 date=1289931322]
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
[/quote]
oh don't worry i'm not trying to counter or anything. I'm just confused as i presumed he had that power after parry left. Otherwise, what was the point in shifting parry?
[/quote]
i thought it was to get more control over the actual transfer budget, rather than the wages budget - that and more power over the academy etc.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42483.msg1219426#msg1219426 date=1289932551]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219423#msg1219423 date=1289932091]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42483.msg1219422#msg1219422 date=1289931961]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219419#msg1219419 date=1289931322]
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
[/quote]
oh don't worry i'm not trying to counter or anything. I'm just confused as i presumed he had that power after parry left. Otherwise, what was the point in shifting parry?
[/quote]
i thought it was to get more control over the actual transfer budget, rather than the wages budget - that and more power over the academy etc.
[/quote]
fair enoughs
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219423#msg1219423 date=1289932091]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42483.msg1219422#msg1219422 date=1289931961]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42483.msg1219419#msg1219419 date=1289931322]
When rafa gained control over transfers (when he shifted parry), didn't he get the license to choose wages?
Genuine question, btw
[/quote]
i honestly don't know, but it sounds incredibly unlikely, and if it did happen i'd blame the people who gave him that power more than benitez himself.
tbh though i don't believe anyone would be so stupid to let that happen, ie hand over control of your key operating budget to a total business novice: it sounds completely implausible.
anyway, even if it did happen, then as bad news as it'd be, it's still somewhat of a moot point given that the figures i've provided above more or less discount the idea that our wages are out of control: they're up a little bit % wise on previous years (as they also were in 03/04, mind) but that's attributable to non-participation in the champions league, as was also the case in 03/04.
[/quote]
oh don't worry i'm not trying to counter or anything. I'm just confused as i presumed he had that power after parry left. Otherwise, what was the point in shifting parry?
[/quote]
i thought it was to get more control over the actual transfer budget, rather than the wages budget - that and more power over the academy etc.
[/quote]
fair enoughs
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