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Groundsharing with Everton FC

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[quote author=grjt link=topic=41795.msg1171425#msg1171425 date=1283990339]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41795.msg1171392#msg1171392 date=1283982585]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41795.msg1171387#msg1171387 date=1283982190]
You've been given plenty of rational points as to why this is a bad idea and perhaps more importantly an irrelevant one right about now, but the response tends to follow the lines of "uhh, yeah, but we *really* should consider this".


[/quote]

There is no rational argument against it, they're emotional ones.
[/quote]

Predicated by the fact that being a devout football fans is, in itself, an emotional rather than rational state.

And making a decision emotionally isnt necessarily a poorer process than one made rationally. So the point is....

[/quote]


i think rosco was responding directly to the claim that there had been plausible rational arguments put forward, not making the case that we should be judging the issue on rational rather than emotional grounds per se.

i think he's almost certinly right that the rational decision would be to ground-share: i suspect the 'rational' arguments put forward against it are largely born of a reluctance to admit to purely sentimental decision-making.
 
[quote author=grjt link=topic=41795.msg1171425#msg1171425 date=1283990339]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41795.msg1171392#msg1171392 date=1283982585]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41795.msg1171387#msg1171387 date=1283982190]
You've been given plenty of rational points as to why this is a bad idea and perhaps more importantly an irrelevant one right about now, but the response tends to follow the lines of "uhh, yeah, but we *really* should consider this".


[/quote]

There is no rational argument against it, they're emotional ones.
[/quote]

And making a decision emotionally isnt necessarily a poorer process than one made rationally. So the point is....

[/quote]

of course it is, in this case, when the subject matter is the case of money and a business, which whether we like it or not, is the world we live in with this club. History won't attract the best players if we're inter-toto-ing our way to europe.
 
Putting aside the emotional issues in favour of the so-called 'rational' ones, the cost of a stadium would probably be 400 million.

Assuming that the idea of a ground-share would make us more appealing to a would-be bidder (something that is plausible, but without any evidence backing it up), does anyone see Everton coughing up 200 million to pay for their share?
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41795.msg1171441#msg1171441 date=1284012161]
Putting aside the emotional issues in favour of the so-called 'rational' ones, the cost of a stadium would probably be 400 million.

Assuming that the idea of a ground-share would make us more appealing to a would-be bidder (something that is plausible, but without any evidence backing it up), does anyone see Everton coughing up 200 million to pay for their share?[/quote]

Quite. Whilst we have no money, Everton, as I've said before, don't even have the pot to piss in.
 
...which is a mighty good reason, not remotely "emotional", for not going halves (which wouldn't actually be anything of the kind) with them on this or anything else. For sure I hate the b@stards, but fortunately the case against doing this with them amounts to a darn sight more than that.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41795.msg1171427#msg1171427 date=1283992890]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=41795.msg1171425#msg1171425 date=1283990339]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41795.msg1171392#msg1171392 date=1283982585]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41795.msg1171387#msg1171387 date=1283982190]
You've been given plenty of rational points as to why this is a bad idea and perhaps more importantly an irrelevant one right about now, but the response tends to follow the lines of "uhh, yeah, but we *really* should consider this".


[/quote]

There is no rational argument against it, they're emotional ones.
[/quote]

Predicated by the fact that being a devout football fans is, in itself, an emotional rather than rational state.

And making a decision emotionally isnt necessarily a poorer process than one made rationally. So the point is....

[/quote]


i think rosco was responding directly to the claim that there had been plausible rational arguments put forward, not making the case that we should be judging the issue on rational rather than emotional grounds per se.

i think he's almost certinly right that the rational decision would be to ground-share: i suspect the 'rational' arguments put forward against it are largely born of a reluctance to admit to purely sentimental decision-making.
[/quote]

I don't think Rosco was making the case for the emotional, he was pointing it out, and it is a good point too.
The very heart of football is about passion and emotion. If we were rational people we could think of much more practical things to do than spend money and waste time watching 22 blokes kick a ball around a field for an hour and a half.
We are, fortunately, not that rational, and sad as it may seem, usually logical people, like me perhaps, do not like the idea of some bluenose twat sitting in my seat every other week. I don't want those bluenoses to think of our home as their home, I don't want any of that.
I want a big shiny fuck-off stadium that says LFC all over the place, that has red seats, and red paintwork.
We may be emotional , but we are not thick. We know under present circumstances we can't do it, we know under present circumstances we don't particularly need to do it.
I also think the idea of doing it because we can't afford anything else at the moment stinks, things change very quickly. This time next month the arabs could have us and the grand design is under way again. I would hate for us to saddle ourselves with a cheap option that no one apart from a few people that don't understand the emotion want that would hang around our neck for decades, just based on todays circumstances. We are custodians of tomorrows history, and the next generation would think we were stupid if we lost a big part of our soul like that.
Hey and don't think the bitters are all for the idea either, the heirarchy might be, the local supporters certainly aren't

regards
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41795.msg1171392#msg1171392 date=1283982585]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41795.msg1171387#msg1171387 date=1283982190]
You've been given plenty of rational points as to why this is a bad idea and perhaps more importantly an irrelevant one right about now, but the response tends to follow the lines of "uhh, yeah, but we *really* should consider this".


[/quote]

There is no rational argument against it, they're emotional ones.
[/quote]

There is Ross.

At risk of repeating myself, much of teh stadium revenue received by other top clubs is not from ticket sales, but from other uses. A huge part of the incentive of a new ground is not ticket revenue, but the other revenue streams.
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=41795.msg1171043#msg1171043 date=1283913605]
Actually, the reason they are exploring leaving the San Siro is because the Local Council own the Stadium and they pay 13 million a year in RENT. That would not be the case for LFC and EFC

To quote a source

"If the club owned the stadium, it would also keep the receipts from non-sporting events like rock concerts in the summer (the likes of U2, Springsteen and the Rolling Stones have played San Siro), while it could also coin it from restaurants, parking, club shop, museum, etc. Finally, money would surely be on the table for naming rights (Pirelli Stadium, anyone?), which is more acceptable to fans when we’re talking about a new development, rather than renaming an existing ground."

So if LFC and EFC owned the ground, this would be a non issue
[/quote]
Everton don't have enough supporters to make it a viable proposition and it is they who would benefit most from a shared stadium as there's no way in the world they could afford a decent new stadium of their own.

We'll have new owners fairly soon, then a new stadium of our own, so why help Everton?
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=41795.msg1171476#msg1171476 date=1284020333]


I don't think Rosco was making the case for the emotional, he was pointing it out, and it is a good point too.
The very heart of football is about passion and emotion. If we were rational people we could think of much more practical things to do than spend money and waste time watching 22 blokes kick a ball around a field for an hour and a half.
We are, fortunately, not that rational, and sad as it may seem, usually logical people, like me perhaps, do not like the idea of some bluenose twat sitting in my seat every other week. I don't want those bluenoses to think of our home as their home, I don't want any of that.
I want a big shiny fuck-off stadium that says LFC all over the place, that has red seats, and red paintwork.
We may be emotional , but we are not thick. We know under present circumstances we can't do it, we know under present circumstances we don't particularly need to do it.
I also think the idea of doing it because we can't afford anything else at the moment stinks, things change very quickly. This time next month the arabs could have us and the grand design is under way again. I would hate for us to saddle ourselves with a cheap option that no one apart from a few people that don't understand the emotion want that would hang around our neck for decades, just based on todays circumstances. We are custodians of tomorrows history, and the next generation would think we were stupid if we lost a big part of our soul like that.
Hey and don't think the bitters are all for the idea either, the heirarchy might be, the local supporters certainly aren't

regards
[/quote]

:Applause: :Applause:

Also I think we may be able to get better sponsorship (naming rights) deals for a LFC stadium than a combined Liverpool - Everton stadium. I may be wrong here though. There are loads of other issues with share stadiums. One of the reasons Inter is planning for a new stadium is not just the rent. They have had loads of administrative issues there. If they want to do anything commercially viable with the stadium - hold concerts or anything - they have to run it by the council and the AC Milan board. We will have the same issues. If we want to build and expand the hall of fame sorta things in the future, we will have to get the approval of the Everton board. Administratively it is going to be a nightmare.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=41795.msg1171512#msg1171512 date=1284028407]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41795.msg1171392#msg1171392 date=1283982585]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41795.msg1171387#msg1171387 date=1283982190]
You've been given plenty of rational points as to why this is a bad idea and perhaps more importantly an irrelevant one right about now, but the response tends to follow the lines of "uhh, yeah, but we *really* should consider this".


[/quote]

There is no rational argument against it, they're emotional ones.
[/quote]

There is Ross.

At risk of repeating myself, much of teh stadium revenue received by other top clubs is not from ticket sales, but from other uses. A huge part of the incentive of a new ground is not ticket revenue, but the other revenue streams.
[/quote]

Quite, and that's how the blueslime were hoping to persuade Tesco's to cough up for Kirkby Dock. The fact that Tesco's ultimately didn't do so shows what prospects THEY saw (or, more to the point, didn't see) in a collaboration with the blueslime, even with a confirmed bluenose like Leahy as CEO - a lesson there, and a striking one, for those who think such an arrangement would make business sense for us.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=41795.msg1171476#msg1171476 date=1284020333]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41795.msg1171427#msg1171427 date=1283992890]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=41795.msg1171425#msg1171425 date=1283990339]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41795.msg1171392#msg1171392 date=1283982585]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41795.msg1171387#msg1171387 date=1283982190]
You've been given plenty of rational points as to why this is a bad idea and perhaps more importantly an irrelevant one right about now, but the response tends to follow the lines of "uhh, yeah, but we *really* should consider this".


[/quote]

There is no rational argument against it, they're emotional ones.
[/quote]

Predicated by the fact that being a devout football fans is, in itself, an emotional rather than rational state.

And making a decision emotionally isnt necessarily a poorer process than one made rationally. So the point is....

[/quote]


i think rosco was responding directly to the claim that there had been plausible rational arguments put forward, not making the case that we should be judging the issue on rational rather than emotional grounds per se.

i think he's almost certinly right that the rational decision would be to ground-share: i suspect the 'rational' arguments put forward against it are largely born of a reluctance to admit to purely sentimental decision-making.
[/quote]

I don't think Rosco was making the case for the emotional, he was pointing it out, and it is a good point too.
The very heart of football is about passion and emotion. If we were rational people we could think of much more practical things to do than spend money and waste time watching 22 blokes kick a ball around a field for an hour and a half.
We are, fortunately, not that rational, and sad as it may seem, usually logical people, like me perhaps, do not like the idea of some bluenose twat sitting in my seat every other week. I don't want those bluenoses to think of our home as their home, I don't want any of that.
I want a big shiny fuck-off stadium that says LFC all over the place, that has red seats, and red paintwork.
We may be emotional , but we are not thick. We know under present circumstances we can't do it, we know under present circumstances we don't particularly need to do it.
I also think the idea of doing it because we can't afford anything else at the moment stinks, things change very quickly. This time next month the arabs could have us and the grand design is under way again. I would hate for us to saddle ourselves with a cheap option that no one apart from a few people that don't understand the emotion want that would hang around our neck for decades, just based on todays circumstances. We are custodians of tomorrows history, and the next generation would think we were stupid if we lost a big part of our soul like that.
Hey and don't think the bitters are all for the idea either, the heirarchy might be, the local supporters certainly aren't

regards
[/quote]


i can't work out if this is directed at me or not....

i never made the slightest criticism of the 'emotional' argument! i think it's entirely valid; it's the rational ones that aren't.
 
I still don't see anything here getting me out of the contrarian's corner completely, but perhaps I have it a bit wrong..

the points made recently...

If Everton had the chance of getting a new stadium, and the board were behind it, they'd find a loan to make it happen. A stadium loan is guaranteed return on investment - they could find someone willing to lend it to them.

At the risk of repeating myself, shared stadium would STILL mean we could do concerts, conventions etc., as the space would still be empty most summers. You'd really just lose 2 weekends on May, 2 weekends in April, 2 weekends in September and maybe 1 in August for hypothetical special events. How many conventions and concerts and special events does Anfield or Goodison, or Old Toilet get right now anyway? 5 or 6 a year? We could still manage this in a new shared stadium.

The other thing that causes pause for thought is naming rights. That's a darn good point, if that hypothetical money is ever available.

ALSO San Siro is bureaucratic - great argument, but we wouldn't be owned by a council so we could avoid this. It could be set-up with both parties, that a simple approval process would be in place since we would be co-owners - butI must confess, I'm not completely sure this still wouldn't be a difficult process with EFC, so that dents the point


As for Vlad's populist (and dare I say "emotive" speech), of course we're all emotional about this, and nobody wants this to be the first choice. I don't want to be the silly "rationalist" but it is a world of finance and business that our club's success will be defined by. Of course we should want better, and non-one wants to have to share with the bluenoses.

But if things don't change in the next year, it'd be just plain suicidal not to put every option on the table for us to "be back".

For me, I want success more than our own stadium, if I had to choose.

Otherwise, history will be all we have. I'll resurrect this thread in September 2011. Hopefully I'll look like a right wally.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41795.msg1171616#msg1171616 date=1284042582]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=41795.msg1171476#msg1171476 date=1284020333]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41795.msg1171427#msg1171427 date=1283992890]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=41795.msg1171425#msg1171425 date=1283990339]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41795.msg1171392#msg1171392 date=1283982585]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41795.msg1171387#msg1171387 date=1283982190]
You've been given plenty of rational points as to why this is a bad idea and perhaps more importantly an irrelevant one right about now, but the response tends to follow the lines of "uhh, yeah, but we *really* should consider this".


[/quote]

There is no rational argument against it, they're emotional ones.
[/quote]

Predicated by the fact that being a devout football fans is, in itself, an emotional rather than rational state.

And making a decision emotionally isnt necessarily a poorer process than one made rationally. So the point is....

[/quote]


i think rosco was responding directly to the claim that there had been plausible rational arguments put forward, not making the case that we should be judging the issue on rational rather than emotional grounds per se.

i think he's almost certinly right that the rational decision would be to ground-share: i suspect the 'rational' arguments put forward against it are largely born of a reluctance to admit to purely sentimental decision-making.
[/quote]

I don't think Rosco was making the case for the emotional, he was pointing it out, and it is a good point too.
The very heart of football is about passion and emotion. If we were rational people we could think of much more practical things to do than spend money and waste time watching 22 blokes kick a ball around a field for an hour and a half.
We are, fortunately, not that rational, and sad as it may seem, usually logical people, like me perhaps, do not like the idea of some bluenose twat sitting in my seat every other week. I don't want those bluenoses to think of our home as their home, I don't want any of that.
I want a big shiny fuck-off stadium that says LFC all over the place, that has red seats, and red paintwork.
We may be emotional , but we are not thick. We know under present circumstances we can't do it, we know under present circumstances we don't particularly need to do it.
I also think the idea of doing it because we can't afford anything else at the moment stinks, things change very quickly. This time next month the arabs could have us and the grand design is under way again. I would hate for us to saddle ourselves with a cheap option that no one apart from a few people that don't understand the emotion want that would hang around our neck for decades, just based on todays circumstances. We are custodians of tomorrows history, and the next generation would think we were stupid if we lost a big part of our soul like that.
Hey and don't think the bitters are all for the idea either, the heirarchy might be, the local supporters certainly aren't

regards
[/quote]


i can't work out if this is directed at me or not....

i never made the slightest criticism of the 'emotional' argument! i think it's entirely valid; it's the rational ones that aren't.
[/quote]

No Peter it was not old chap, I was just picking up on Ross's point

regards
 
For the sake of clarification, I wasn't making any inference as to the value of either argument on, just simply that the arguments are emotional and therefore not rational (with FFF's exception, ). I don't want a groundshare even though at this moment in time it makes sense.
 
I am against a ground share but if that what it takes to guarantee our future and prevent administration then its a no brainer!
 
We are walking a tightrope at the moment but a groundshare doesn't seem a very good idea for a number of good reasons.
 
Everton have been granted planning permission for a £9million development to expand their retail and administration capabilities at Goodison Park.

The four-floor, self-funded development will be built on the site of the Club Everton lounge at the Park End of the stadium and will house a 900 square metre retail store, museum, cafe, a fan-focused hospitality lounge and office space.

It will also free up space which means capacity for corporate hospitality inside the stadium itself can be expanded.

"The new building is an exciting phase in the development of Goodison Park," said chief executive Robert Elstone.

"It will help us grow our business and will also get the entire Everton team under one roof, something that is long overdue and an opportunity to further improve how we work as a team for the benefit of the fans."

Work will start before the end of the year and is expected to be completed in Autumn 2011, with the project being paid for entirely through the assistance of existing club retail partner Kitbag and stadium catering partner Sodexo.

The development confirms the club's medium-term future remains at Goodison after plans to build a new stadium in Kirkby collapsed last year when they were rejected by the government.
Click to expand...
 
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