Gen-Gen Depressing
- Thread starter manwithnoname
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i dunno why but each time i see the manwithnoname i immediately think - Mourinho.
From your OP
"So I'd be unsure if even greats like Gerrard, Torres, Rush or Owen could play for a Klopp team."
These are all top drawer players as far as I'm concerned.
Good point re Firmino being a successful CF at another club. Like anything it's all relative, right? He'd do well at Arsenal swapping positions with Ozil & Sanchez etc but probably less so at United where they play one up top and leave a striker quite isolated for large parts of the game. I'd be confident that most of our rivals would sign Firmino today if they had the opportunity.
I think Lallana would make it as a CM wherever he went. Looking at the midfield options of our rivals in the PL, he'd get a game at maybe all except Spurs.
You use that logic with most of our new players though.
Coutinho's throughball to Mané? Wasn't he one on one with the keeper?
Not sure where you're getting your figures from Brendan. We've conceded more than 8 other teams but no where near twice as many as them. We've conceded fewer than TEN other teams (not 3).
Given our tough opening fixtures I think the fact that we've conceded 3 or 4 more goals than our rivals at the top of the table is acceptable, notwithstanding the fact that we are not defending particularly well at present.
In the Top 8, we've conceded twice as many as anyone except for United.
Only Leicester, West Ham and Hull have conceded more goals than Liverpool.
But that's not worrying at all, is it? That out of 20 teams, 15 have conceded less goals than Liverpool.
It's a good post you make Brendan, I don't get the title though, Gen Gen Depressing? I love the type of goal that you describe, some of the goals Torres and Gerrard scored in 09 were just gorgeous on the eyes, but we do still score those goals, Firmino on Saturday, Sturridge vs Spurs, Mane vs Leicester, Firmino vs Leicester off the top of my head, plus the football we're playing this season is without doubt some of the best football I've ever seen us play, I feel the title Gen Gen Beautiful would be much more fitting, we're so easy on the eye, it's the thing I love most about this Liverpool side this season.
Hahaha. So Mane is a right winger, as opposed to a member of a fluid attacking front three?
Brendan, you've become Bren-wand, that poster that EVERYONE on the site knows is talking dogshit, but that remains oblivious, indeed, laughably intransigent about defending his dogshit.
I'm not trying to diminish the obvious defensive issues we have, but I feel it's a very important point to make that we haven't throw any points away thanks to our defensive madness, except against maybe Spurs at a push, we need to tighten it up, but it's not as bad as it has been in the past, and I don't think it will cost us the title / top four if our front line stays in the form it has been. Big if though.
Ok, well here's the rub, as it were.
I KNOW we are playing well. I KNOW we are third in the table and looking a genuine threat.
That's NOW.
My point is, that over the course of an entire season, a shite defence and a striker who isn't a reliable goalscorer, means that you have zero chance of winning the title.
I'm looking beyond what has happened in the first 10 games - ie NOW - and using information and intuition to posit a theory that - in the future - we may need to address those two issues, and inviting discourse about it.
I'm bemused and disappointed that so few seem able to grasp this.
What have are you looking at? There's 8 teams that have conceded less than us, not 15.
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Yeah I'm confused with the gen-gen bit, considering it's gegen pressing.
But we have multiple players spread across the team scoring at a decent rate, surely that's a much better position to be in than having a single goal scoring machine, just look at Spurs without Kane, they couldn't buy a goal at the moment. The defence is a legitimate concern yes, goal scoring is not.
9 teams have conceded more, 8 teams less, 2 teams the same. What's the 15 about?
Of course it is. I'm simply raising the issue that if you want to win a title, you almost always require a reliable goalscorer and a good defence
We have neither
OK. I'll try again. We've conceded more goals than anyone in the Top 10.
I was looking at away goals, my mistake.
Only 8 teams have conceded more goals than us.
Over a short distance and without being man marked. Lallana made a diagonal run across to pull the defense wide, so the space was there for Henderson to play the ball to, for which Firmino then only had to run a couple of yards before getting that absolutely exquisite touch. I know what you're saying, but it wasn't the greatest example of playing on the last shoulder and bursting beyond the opposition defense. The space afforded him the time to make the run and get the touch in early.
There are plenty of examples of Firmino and Lallana being played in but seeing the chance squandered because the defender has got a vital tackle in. Neither of them are "slow" because they are both agile and aggressive enough to make the space for themselves to run into - that buys them a yard, but in terms of genuine pace, they don't have what the likes of Sturridge, Mane or Origi have (for example). But then we have three quick players there to use, so it isn't really an issue. It's not like Firmino is surrounded by snails. It's not like we're playing Crouch and Kuyt/Voronin upfront.
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Despite this we have our highest points total at this stage in the season in how long? So we have areas for improvement, and are still joint top of the league. That's good news.
Hahhahaaaa that is exactly the legal defense being put up by the university. We fired you because you had given over 10 presentations, which was more than enough for blah. What the fuck are you talking about? It was less than 5. Oh, uhm ok I'll try again, we're firing you because you gave less than 5 presentations. The fuck?
We conceded 13 goals.
Bournemouth (14), Leicester (16), Crystal Palace (16), WBA (14), West Ham (19), Stoke (16), Hull (23) have conceded more.
Watford and Burnley have conceded the same amount as us.
Now your next post.
Do you see the problem? You make some good points occasionally. But just like Fox News you are wrapped up in your mind set that you try to hammer your points across in antagonistic manner irrespective of the opposition arguments.
You also fail to see that sometimes certain posters may have a view with different shades of grey across an issue.
Classic case is the Guardiola thread which rurik created. Your point was Guardiola = Mourinho and all posters who dont agree with that view point worship at the altar of Pep. There are aspects of Pep which most of us like and aspects which we dont like. We also dont like Guardiola's personality but think it is unfair to rate him at Mourinho level of jerkiness. Somehow you are unable to process that.
Same with Firmino. Nobody is saying he is the successor to Rush, Fowler, Owen, and Torres. But the system is working now. Much better than what we anticipated. I dont think any of us predicted a joint top position at this stage of the season. When we stumble, Klopp will find a way. Maybe Sturridge will come back. Finding a system which works independent of the most talented but brittle striker we have is the most brilliant thing Klopp has done since he has come here.
Your point about defense again is well noted. But we are a work in progress. We are ahead of schedule but a work in progress nonetheless. I am sure Klopp has identified it as an issue and will work on it.
Well it's a good ethos to work by, to not rest on our laurels, to always be striving to improve. I don't think theres too much wrong with us attacking wise. We're beautiful to watch. I think there's an argument to be had for a little variation, but then we just pounded in two headers from corners, so what do I know.
Ironically, those of you moaning most about Brendan's posting being repetitive & tiresome are also dragging the debate down & baiting him to respond time & again.
I get your point Brendan, but I only half agree, cos Rush & Gerrard would definitely be able to play in this side. Both loved pressing he opposition high up the pitch.
Certain types of strikers won't be able to. Those who build their game around playing just off the shoulder of the defender almost all the time to latch onto through balls, & who thrive on being poachers. Sturridge fits that category sadly.
The former some players can do occasionally (Lallana, Mane & Firmino) when in the right position, but cos they have so much else to do don't get there all that often, the latter, players find very difficult to do with the way we play, which is why we so often see the ball pinged dangerously across the box & no attackers there to slot it in.
I get your point Brendan, but I only half agree, cos Rush & Gerrard would definitely be able to play in this side. Both loved pressing he opposition high up the pitch.
Certain types of strikers won't be able to. Those who build their game around playing just off the shoulder of the defender almost all the time to latch onto through balls, & who thrive on being poachers. Sturridge fits that category sadly.
The former some players can do occasionally (Lallana, Mane & Firmino) when in the right position, but cos they have so much else to do don't get there all that often, the latter, players find very difficult to do with the way we play, which is why we so often see the ball pinged dangerously across the box & no attackers there to slot it in.
I think the key to both issues on the opposite ends of the pitch comes down to two individuals: Karius and Sturridge. Whether the former can adjust to the league and sort himself out soonest, hence calming the defence more, and whether Sturridge can buy into Klopp's current vision and role for him. That is, a vital squad player, and not starter and the main man. If Sturridge can, we'd have the staying power in our firepower.
Fox news is a fun place to foster debate and hyperbolic argument, but I disagree that this place is similar overall.
The Guardiola/ Mourinho schism is a great example of biased viewpoints obfuscating facts though. One is more obviously easy to love and enthuse over, but they're both cunts and both very successful. So why is one perceived as "better"?
That's my point.
As for the topic of the day, I've been clear and have also helpfully simplified it for everyone:
We have a terrible defence and no reliable individual source of goals. Both of which are requirements for a title-winning side.
I'm not unaware of the fact that we are still third despite both of the above, however, nobody has ever won the title in November, so I'm speculating it may be an issue as we get closer to the end of the season, when the title IS won.
DISCUSS
The thing is, Sturridge has more in his locker than just playing off the shoulder of the last defender, he actually does like to drop deeper and pick up the ball in different positions. He has the qualities to play in Klopp's team. It is the work-rate and the instinct as to when to drop deeper and when to push up that appears to be lacking, as well as a seeming lack of confidence to push his body to the limit.
In finance, diversification allows you to get the same return (of goals) with less random variation (of goals). If we have one striker only, then in the seasons where the random variation works in our favour he'll be a freak of nature and we'll win the title. Happy days. But putting all your eggs in one basket means you're paying for that in other seasons when that same striker plays like a cunt and we finish 7th. Look at Vardy right now.
So by diversifying our goal scoring options, we can potentially achieve the same total, but with less variation season to season, or even game to game. That means we can be consistently successful and win title after title. Dominate, like we used to.
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