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French comedians

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I sense that you have the same frustration towards anti-semitism as I have towards black racism.
A long time ago, I came to the conclusion that there are good people and there bad people and there always will be and I can't be arsed going about changing bad peoples opinions.


I'm pretty much the same but I suppose the flipside to that is that the world only changes when put themselves on the line to make that happen... when good people do nothing and all that jazz. Though ironically I guess the comedian would probably use the same argument for what he's doing.
 
The point is what Anelka thought doesn't come into it. Not a single fuck should be given about his intent.

His gesture is objectively anti-semetic and he should be banned for 8 games. If he is not, then if I were Suarez I'd copy that celebration after every goal because fuck the Jews right. He fucking well better get banned
 
I sense that you have the same frustration towards anti-semitism as I have towards black racism.
A long time ago, I came to the conclusion that there are good people and there bad people and there always will be and I can't be arsed going about changing bad peoples opinions.

I agree with you re: good people and bad people ... but I also agree with @keniget ... good people often times remain silent, and do nothing, and that leads to real bad stuff worldwide. there has to be a balance, and I just don't think humanity has the ability to do it ... It leaves me dejected quite a bit, so I often times just try to 'numb' myself to the reality unless there's someone to talk to about it.
 
See, that reference to "method" worries me. It has a dangerous whiff of totalitarianism about it, however much one might hope that Western culture and opinion do move in that direction.
 
tony-parker-quenelle.png
 
Of course it does, it just takes time and a method to get rid of conservative mindsets along the way

You're assuming that everything with the conservative mindset is what's wrong with us as a species. There is plenty wrong with the liberal etc mindsets too ... A balance is what's needed.
 
Had the gesture been anti-semitic without a shadow of a doubt, Anelka would have been banned for life, like that young Greek player who showed a Nazi salute. Pleading ignorance after the fact didn't help him one bit, because the meaning of a Nazi salute is fairly unambiguous. So I think it's not really "brushing anti-semitism under the rug," it's just with quenelle there is some doubt whether the gesture is always anti-semitic. There is no question that people who pose doing quenelle at Auschwitz and the like are making an anti-semitic statement. But it's certainly possible that some people, in fact most people, genuinely think of it as some "fuck the power" sign and use to express exactly that sentiment.

For me it's the intended meaning is what counts, not the gesture or the symbol itself. For instance swastika is more than OK on the roof of a Buddhist temple; I've seen many while traveling in Asia. The symbol itself is not evil, but people certainly can use it in evil ways. By the same token, if somebody poses with quenelle at Auschwitz, for me that's not much different from a Nazi salute – it doesn't matter if the gesture is different if the meaning is roughly the same.

Of course this ambiguity is by design; this Dieudonne is a fairly smart guy and he knows this gesture would not spread among the general public if everybody viewed is a purely anti-semitic, while people who intend to use it in anti-semitic way need plausible deniability. I think banning the gesture would be stupid and counterproductive. The solution is simple: people who use it in an ambiguous way should be asked to explain what they meant. If, like Anelka, they say they meant no offense, believe them. Just make sure they are aware of the other, potentially offensive meaning.
 
For me it's the intended meaning is what counts, not the gesture or the symbol itself. For instance swastika negro is more than OK on the roof of a Buddhist temple streets of Uruguay; I've seen many heard it while traveling in Asia South America. The symbol word itself is not evil, but people certainly can use it in evil ways.

There will be a problem if Anelka isn't banned.
 
Well, Suarez did not keep repeating the word negrito in a friendly way, so you could say that his intent was to wind Evra up, although the literal English translation probably made it seem worse than it actually was.

I actually talked to a person from Uruguay about this; he essentially said the same thing. The word negrito can be quite harmless and even friendly, but Suarez did not say in a friendly way.
 
Well, Suarez did not keep repeating the word negrito in a friendly way, so you could say that his intent was to wind Evra up, although the literal English translation probably made it seem worse than it actually was.

Anelka did not mean the gesture in a friendly way either, no matter how you interpret it.
 
Of course this ambiguity is by design; this Dieudonne is a fairly smart guy and he knows this gesture would not spread among the general public if everybody viewed is a purely anti-semitic, while people who intend to use it in anti-semitic way need plausible deniability. I think banning the gesture would be stupid and counterproductive. The solution is simple: people who use it in an ambiguous way should be asked to explain what they meant. If, like Anelka, they say they meant no offense, believe them. Just make sure they are aware of the other, potentially offensive meaning.

Do you think Anelka or any other footballer is going to say "Yes I am a racist"? As you rightly pointed out, they are fairly smart.

For me it's quite clearly offensive given it's origins. It's not like the swastika which has been used on temples and mosques all over Asia and Europe for 2000 years before the Nazis even existed.
 
I tend not to believe him on that. Also, the Uruguay guy I talked to (who is a Suarez fan, obviously) didn't seem to have any doubt that Suarez said it. Anyway, it's in the past and let's just leave it at that.
 
Hang on

You don't believe what Suarez himself claimed to say, yet you believe someone who wasn't anywhere near the incident?

The fuck?
 
Hang on

You don't believe what Suarez himself claimed to say, yet you believe someone who wasn't anywhere near the incident?

The fuck?

It's a misunderstanding, because he naively never considered the possibility that Rosco is a massive troll
 
You guys are getting too emotional over this. I think it's pretty clear what I meant and I'm not going to repeat it. Let's not get sidetracked.
 
Jimmy Carr, should make his own version of this salute, some of his routines are just a risque. could be quite popular
 
Do you think Anelka or any other footballer is going to say "Yes I am a racist"? As you rightly pointed out, they are fairly smart.

For me it's quite clearly offensive given it's origins. It's not like the swastika which has been used on temples and mosques all over Asia and Europe for 2000 years before the Nazis even existed.
But if a player pulled up his shirt after scoring a goal to reveal a vest with a swastika on it, I think it may cause some repercussions, even if he claimed it was the non-nazi usage he intended.
 
But if a player pulled up his shirt after scoring a goal to reveal a vest with a swastika on it, I think it may cause some repercussions, even if he claimed it was the non-nazi usage he intended.

"I was merely showing my appreciation for my pagan religion"
 
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