Firmino
- Thread starter redhorizon2
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
No Mark. He slags him off left right and centre whilst begrudgingly giving faint praise (with an undercurrent of criticism) when he plays well.
I'm sure we'll buy one, maybe two (depending on what happens with Ings) strikers, this Summer. However I'm far from sure how we'll set up next season. I doubt we'll stray far from the current Klopp blueprint and since we are the top scorers in the league one should be able to understand that stance, not being reliable on any one player.
Last edited:
I don't enjoy the constant sniping he was making in every thread at one stage but I do enjoy threads about Firmino that Brendan contributes to. He makes potentially pertinent points that are worth consideration and maybe a slight moderation of my opinion. Besides which such debates usually throw up a plethora of up-to-date stats to be considered.
We need some stats to substantiate this. I do remember a few months ago that we were not only the best team in the PL for chance conversion but amongst the best in Europe. Now that may of changed considerably but we need facts not opinion to go down that road.
Every team misses hatfuls of chances, and, as with every team, far more than they convert. As Liverpool supporters our misses just remain in the memory that much longer.
Last edited:
You're comparing one of of our greatest ever strikers in Rush, from a totally different era, with Firmino today ? Jesus Mark. Never mind that they play in totally different positions and totally different games to totally different managerial tactics.
No, as far as I remember Brendan disliked Firmino from the start, even before he was moved in the #9 role by Klopp. That's when the "flabby melt" moniker was born. "He is a good player, but doesn't score enough goals as a striker" is a position that he evolved towards later.
Yeah, Ian Rush at 24 years of age would be no use to us at all. The game's changed! Tactics! False 9s! Scoring 30+ goals! Winning trophies and titles!
Different world.
Point missed big time.
Unsurprising. You didn't have one.
So you missed it. It's becoming a habit Brendan.
The ability to miss non-existent points is quite a useful habit.
Ha ha ! Nice one.
So, how's it working out for you then?
Maybe the reason we score so many and concede so many goals is because our tactics is skewed towards attack than defense. Maybe having a more reliable goal scorer will enable us to play a more balanced game (maybe even a DM) and keep up the same rate of scoring while conceding less. There is a lot more to it than just looking at goals scored.
I also think this squad is different from the previous squads in terms of talent distribution. I think in earlier squads there was a centralization of goals because we had few genuine world class attackers and then a big drop off in talent. I think in this squad the talent distribution is more uniform and so even if we have a reliable goal scorer, I think we will have a reasonable distribution of goals.
Anyways, I think Firmino is boss !!!!
I need more stats !
That's a great point and this is where I disagree with @Ryan and others who worry about going back to the days of over-reliance on 1-2 great scorers over a balanced attack like we have now. If we could sign a 23-year-old Fernando Torres this summer, would it automatically turn Coutinho into Nunes and Mane into Pennant and Gini into Jay Spearing? No, of course not – we would still have those attacking talents (provided we don't need to sell any of them to fund our purchase of 23-year-old Torres!) and it would make our attack more balanced, not less. Like Dortmund's attack in Klopp's championship seasons, where Lewandowski was scoring the biggest share of the goals, but the contributions from the likes of Reus, Kagawa and Gotze were just as important.
Sorry missed that.
Well here's a suggestion that might be worth consideration.
In the 5 league games we've lost this season and the 3 games we drew after conceding a late equaliser - our first choice centre back partnership of Matip & Lovren did not play.
So yes, we can talk about tactics and we can talk about replacing Firmino, but at the end of the day there seems a pretty strong correlation between us dropping points and not having our best centre backs playing.
In fact, the only game we've lost when Matip & Lovren played - was the 2nd leg League Cup S/F to Southampton - to a 91st minute quick breakaway goal while both CB's were in the opposition penalty area for a corner.
So how about we focus on the real problem - and to answer your question - we MIGHT accumulate more points with a prolific striker than Firmino.
However, we WILL accumulate more points by having either Lovren & Matip play more or have better replacements than Klavan & Lucas.
Bingo, this thread is a perfect example of SCM in all it's glory, everyone who berates a poster for having a repetitive boring 'wrong' opinion on a player gets upset when he doesn't post in a thread about a player just so they can pick a fight.
Except it isn't that simple at all is it?
I agree with this too. In fact watching the CL for the last 2 days reminded me that a pair of terrific CBs like Ramos-Nacho or Chiellini-Bonucci can win matches on their own too. We definitely suffered from the various injuries and illnesses of Matip and Lovren this season and the stats show it very clearly, as @StevieM pointed out. We really need someone like Van Dijk to push Lovren down the pecking order as an excellent 3rd choice and then we'll have a much more solid base. Basically in my view we need a key addition in every line – central defense, midfield, attack – to take this team to a new level.
Last edited:
It really is that simple Dreamie.
We concede too many goals when we don't have our best two CB's playing - that's where we've dropped the points that make the difference from a title charge to top 4 scrap.
And by not having better backup CBs than Lucas and Klavan ..... although actually we do have but Klopp decided to cut off his nose to spite his face. He could have handled that better.
Mark - I've heard you repeat this 'Do you think we won't buy a striker/forward in the summer?' line quite often over the last few weeks.
Don't we buy a new forward/striker every summer? Like every club? It'll hardly be 'news' or demonstrate that Firmino can't be trusted/isn't good enough/should be replaced.
We're forever buying forwards - just like every club. We've got 5 as it is, so adding another one won't be much of a surprise. I imagine United will buy another quality striker this summer too - does that mean they don't rate Ibrahimovic, Rashford or even Rooney? Chelsea fucked a fortune on Batshuayi last summer knowing he'd be second fiddle to Costa, and so it's proved.
I don't get why you keep repeating this.
Probably because we didn't buy one last year, the last two we bought were a free transfer who's been forever injured and a 19 year old up and coming player. Oh, and because our top scorer is a winger/wide forward with 13 goals. Behind:
Hazard 14
Ali 16
Costa 17
Ibrahimovic 17
Sanchez 19
Kane 20
Lukaku 24
You could say from that lot, only two are "carrying" their teams, in Lukaku and Sanchez. The top two teams in the Premiership have two players combining to give a total of 31 goals (Chelsea) and 36 goals (Spurs - Son also has 12). Our top two goal scorers give us 24 goals, neither of whom are actual strikers.
And so it's proved, what? United don't rate Rooney these days, clearly. Rashford has hardly played and Ibra has one season left. So if they buy one then it'll be because they need one.
If we buy one, it'll be because we need to keep improving and because there's room for a more reliable source of goals as well as the quality we already have. Nobody said Firmino "can't be trusted/isn't good enough/should be replaced", as I've reiterated throughout, yet people keep seeing the suggestion that we need a striker meaning as much. I'm not really sure what your argument is here. If we buy a genuine goalscorer then it'll be because we need one and they'll be in the team, scoring goals sooner rather than later.
In the top 25 scorers in the league, Spurs have 4 players, combining to add a total of 55 goals. We have 3 players, adding 33 goals. Our overall record is better, but spreading the goals across the team isn't always reliable. We can't guarantee regular goals from Lallana, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can, or the defenders, other than penalties from Milner. Our front three add the bulk, but not in the lofty regions of a Costa, Kane or Ibra, they're not far off, but it's hardly a given. Coutinho's goal return is fairly steady and doesn't improve season on season, Mane is a real threat, Firmino is a false 9 who will weigh in and looks like he might get 15 at best. Though that's without accounting for the fact that those above him will also continue to score until the end of the season, running into 20 something goals.
I'd be really surprised if we don't add a quality player to the front line, and not because it's the done thing to buy one most seasons - because we need one to push on further. That's not a swipe at Firmino or any of the others, they will continue to be a part of a wonderful attack, just hopefully one that can be even better. I'm not sure why that's so unfathomable, we can and should always strive to get better.
Hazard 14
Ali 16
Costa 17
Ibrahimovic 17
Sanchez 19
Kane 20
Lukaku 24
You could say from that lot, only two are "carrying" their teams, in Lukaku and Sanchez. The top two teams in the Premiership have two players combining to give a total of 31 goals (Chelsea) and 36 goals (Spurs - Son also has 12). Our top two goal scorers give us 24 goals, neither of whom are actual strikers.
And so it's proved, what? United don't rate Rooney these days, clearly. Rashford has hardly played and Ibra has one season left. So if they buy one then it'll be because they need one.
If we buy one, it'll be because we need to keep improving and because there's room for a more reliable source of goals as well as the quality we already have. Nobody said Firmino "can't be trusted/isn't good enough/should be replaced", as I've reiterated throughout, yet people keep seeing the suggestion that we need a striker meaning as much. I'm not really sure what your argument is here. If we buy a genuine goalscorer then it'll be because we need one and they'll be in the team, scoring goals sooner rather than later.
In the top 25 scorers in the league, Spurs have 4 players, combining to add a total of 55 goals. We have 3 players, adding 33 goals. Our overall record is better, but spreading the goals across the team isn't always reliable. We can't guarantee regular goals from Lallana, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can, or the defenders, other than penalties from Milner. Our front three add the bulk, but not in the lofty regions of a Costa, Kane or Ibra, they're not far off, but it's hardly a given. Coutinho's goal return is fairly steady and doesn't improve season on season, Mane is a real threat, Firmino is a false 9 who will weigh in and looks like he might get 15 at best. Though that's without accounting for the fact that those above him will also continue to score until the end of the season, running into 20 something goals.
I'd be really surprised if we don't add a quality player to the front line, and not because it's the done thing to buy one most seasons - because we need one to push on further. That's not a swipe at Firmino or any of the others, they will continue to be a part of a wonderful attack, just hopefully one that can be even better. I'm not sure why that's so unfathomable, we can and should always strive to get better.
If we had the second or third top scorer in the league with about 20 goals but had scored less goals in total then we have today. I wonder if we would be having a discussion about spreading the goals throughout the team instead, so we're not dependent on that one player. My guess is yes.
We could certainly benefit from a goalscoring striker. It's also about adding versatility to the attack.
We'd have the option to play differently against teams like City or Arsenal (4-3-3 with Firmino leading the attack) and teams who park the bus (4-2-3-1 with a pacy goalscoring striker leading the line)
We'd have the option to play differently against teams like City or Arsenal (4-3-3 with Firmino leading the attack) and teams who park the bus (4-2-3-1 with a pacy goalscoring striker leading the line)
- Status
