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England v Algeria.

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England have been nothing short of average! Real disappointing with all the talent that they have.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40658.msg1123414#msg1123414 date=1276932082]
I don't think that's our best XI, nor our best formation, but I'm really not convinced that picking a different team is going to change anything. Rooney is our best striker by miles and he was utterly shite last night. He clearly had no confidence at all. The problem here is mental IMO, not physical or tactical. Blame Capello all you want, but I think even Jose Mourinho, even the combined ghosts of Bill Shankly and Brian Clough, would struggle to get this England team performing at their best in World Cup finals. As has been said, it's a malaise that goes back decades.
[/quote]

It's easy to defend against a team with no imagination or composure whatsoever.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40658.msg1123381#msg1123381 date=1276906745]
Gerrard was far from being the worst offender. Rooney and Lampard didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. At least in Heskey's case, he only reproduced his usual club form.
[/quote]

[quote author=refugee link=topic=40658.msg1123373#msg1123373 date=1276905775]
I think Gerrard is being unfairly criticised, he was involved in almost all of Englands best move despite being played out of position.
[/quote]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, so I don't know if other people have been criticising him as well, but I think it's merited for Stevie, not so much for the performance - as I said he produced some of the most incisive play of the night - but the attitude.

He was shunted out to the left wing, didn't like it, and made damn sure everybody knew it. He was sulky and uninterested, compared to the previous game where he was all over them, this time he quite happily let players go past him when he could have put in a tackle, or let the ball through when he could have stuck a foot out to intercept.

He actually spent quite a lot of time ambling around in the centre of the park, leaving Cole on his tod on the left. Certainly not a captains performance
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40658.msg1123825#msg1123825 date=1277020902] Certainly not a captains performance
[/quote]

I don't think Stevie is a particularly good captain. Last season, when Carra took over the captaincy in Stevie's absence, he took his captaincy duties much more to heart, and you could see him imposing his will on the rest of the team.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=40658.msg1123249#msg1123249 date=1276894010]
I bet Chelsea fans think Frank's had no support, etc... probably our best player in the tournament.
[/quote]

The ones I know do. They have been lambasting Gerrard for being "crap" and coming out with comments like "he's only captain in name, JT is the true captain". Laughable twats!
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40658.msg1123825#msg1123825 date=1277020902]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40658.msg1123381#msg1123381 date=1276906745]
Gerrard was far from being the worst offender. Rooney and Lampard didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. At least in Heskey's case, he only reproduced his usual club form.
[/quote]

[quote author=refugee link=topic=40658.msg1123373#msg1123373 date=1276905775]
I think Gerrard is being unfairly criticised, he was involved in almost all of Englands best move despite being played out of position.
[/quote]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, so I don't know if other people have been criticising him as well, but I think it's merited for Stevie, not so much for the performance - as I said he produced some of the most incisive play of the night - but the attitude.

He was shunted out to the left wing, didn't like it, and made damn sure everybody knew it. He was sulky and uninterested, compared to the previous game where he was all over them, this time he quite happily let players go past him when he could have put in a tackle, or let the ball through when he could have stuck a foot out to intercept.

He actually spent quite a lot of time ambling around in the centre of the park, leaving Cole on his tod on the left. Certainly not a captains performance
[/quote]

True enough, but he was hardly alone in all that. Few of them looked as though they wanted to be out there.
 
Although I am not one to believe conspiracy theories, I can only think that something has gone seriously wrong behind the scenes, for England to play that badly.

However, all is not lost. I recall one World Cup during which one newspaper demanded that the team be withdrawn from the tournament and brought home straight away, they were so disgracefully bad. England then proceeded to qualify from their group and did quite well in the knockout stages.
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40658.msg1123825#msg1123825 date=1277020902]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40658.msg1123381#msg1123381 date=1276906745]
Gerrard was far from being the worst offender. Rooney and Lampard didn't deserve to stay on the pitch. At least in Heskey's case, he only reproduced his usual club form.
[/quote]

[quote author=refugee link=topic=40658.msg1123373#msg1123373 date=1276905775]
I think Gerrard is being unfairly criticised, he was involved in almost all of Englands best move despite being played out of position.
[/quote]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, so I don't know if other people have been criticising him as well, but I think it's merited for Stevie, not so much for the performance - as I said he produced some of the most incisive play of the night - but the attitude.

He was shunted out to the left wing, didn't like it, and made damn sure everybody knew it. He was sulky and uninterested, compared to the previous game where he was all over them, this time he quite happily let players go past him when he could have put in a tackle, or let the ball through when he could have stuck a foot out to intercept.

He actually spent quite a lot of time ambling around in the centre of the park, leaving Cole on his tod on the left. Certainly not a captains performance
[/quote]
Could not a large part of that be a different set of instructions on the left? As part of a central it was probably demanded of him (especially being partnered by Lampard) to track back if need be and go after the tackle. On the left of midfield he probably had a set of instructions not to lose the shape of the side and to run in a set channel.

Of course, in the second half he did his own thing with 30 mins to play.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40658.msg1123870#msg1123870 date=1277032729]
Although I am not one to believe conspiracy theories, I can only think that something has gone seriously wrong behind the scenes, for England to play that badly.

However, all is not lost. I recall one World Cup during which one newspaper demanded that the team be withdrawn from the tournament and brought home straight away, they were so disgracefully bad. England then proceeded to qualify from their group and did quite well in the knockout stages.
[/quote]

Graham Taylor - who I think is a good pundit, far better than he was as Capello's predecessor - came up with an interesting theory on BBC News last night. He wondered if the players can take Capello's strictness - including such things as going to bed during the day - for the few days it takes to get an international game played during the season, but not over a more prolonged period taking in WC prep and then the tournament itself. If they also have doubts about the line-up (e.g.the ignoring of Joe Cole) that would be a heady brew.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40658.msg1123874#msg1123874 date=1277033064]
I think it's Beckham, Portly.
[/quote]

While I have nothing against Beckham, I feel that keeping him there and paying his hotel bills, presumably on the assumption that his mere presence is somehow totemic and will help bring England success, is pathetic.

In the same way that the FA pay the expenses of that crappy brass band that adds absolutely nothing to the proceedings! :🙂
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40658.msg1123877#msg1123877 date=1277033501]
Graham Taylor - who I think is a good pundit, far better than he was as Capello's predecessor - came up with an interesting theory on BBC News last night. He wondered if the players can take Capello's strictness - including such things as going to bed during the day - for the few days it takes to get an international game played during the season, but not over a more prolonged period taking in WC prep and then the tournament itself. If they also have doubts about the line-up (e.g.the ignoring of Joe Cole) that would be a heady brew.
[/quote]

I think that is probably spot-on. The players' body language definitely reveals dissatisfaction.
 
I think its spot on what Taylor has said - the players wont be able to handle being told what to do. Its obvious through media revelations that they think they are entitled to everything and responsible for nothing.

A disciplinarian like Capello will be far too much. God forbid someone is telling them what to do. Who cares if he's the most successful manager they've ever played for, why should they do things his way. Its all about them, after all.
 
[quote author=Rafiagra link=topic=40658.msg1123990#msg1123990 date=1277055044]
I think its spot on what Taylor has said - the players wont be able to handle being told what to do. Its obvious through media revelations that they think they are entitled to everything and responsible for nothing.

A disciplinarian like Capello will be far too much. God forbid someone is telling them what to do. Who cares if he's the most successful manager they've ever played for, why should they do things his way. Its all about them, after all.
[/quote]

capello should pick a system that suits the best players and let them fucking get on with it, there isn't enough time to try and be a tough guy. for example, letting the team know the selection an hour before kic off is helping who exactly?

also in the the warm up capello is still tinkering with his options rather than playing the team that will start and letting them gell. capello can fuck off, I think he's been shit in this world cup, I hope he comes no where near liverpool.
 
It's funny how everyone thought it was wonderful that he was a tough guy beforehand. Some bloke in the pub saying how great he is cos he stopped his players using their phones at dinner. Who cares?
 
All this talk of Capello being too strict with the players is a joke.

They have all been poor in an England shirt for far too long and when they finally get a manager of Capellos quality, they should keep their heads down and do what they're fucking told.

If it was at club level, I could understand but you only get to play these tournaments a few times in your career and you should be able to put up with a bit of hardship for a couple weeks.
 
You'd think the spoilt pretensious little cunts would like some form of discipline, maybe even welcome it. Clearly not.

The least I'd expect from a team at The world cup is some team spirit. There's fuck all of that by all
accounts.
 
Agreed with the last two posts.

Capello hasn't got it right tactically as far as I'm concerned, but the attitude of the players is still a fucking joke. We're talking about players worth hundreds of millions of pounds not being able to string a few passes together.

That only reflects badly on the players and not on the boss as far as I'm concerned.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40658.msg1124027#msg1124027 date=1277066956]
You'd think the spoilt pretensious little cunts would like some form of discipline, maybe even welcome it. Clearly not.

The least I'd expect from a team at The world cup is some team spirit. There's fuck all of that by all
accounts.
[/quote]

Well when discipline means summoning the captain to Wembley to be sacked, and when that captain is John "I walk on water" Terry, then you're bound to have little cliques.

This was the same John Terry who spent most of the game against Algeria trying to take petty retribution against any Algerian who challenged him, resulting in him giving away any number of free kicks for little or no reason. Watch him, about 5 times he smacks the Algerian who challenges him before the ball even gets there.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40658.msg1124023#msg1124023 date=1277065634]
All this talk of Capello being too strict with the players is a joke.

They have all been poor in an England shirt for far too long and when they finally get a manager of Capellos quality, they should keep their heads down and do what they're fucking told.

If it was at club level, I could understand but you only get to play these tournaments a few times in your career and you should be able to put up with a bit of hardship for a couple weeks.
[/quote]

It is not the hardships it is not the players attitude. You're winding yourself up for no reason. It is down to a lack of ability which they can do nothing about.

Think about it at club level. Most of the england team play in the top 4 teams. They are always the favourites. So they are used to the other team being underdogs and working their ass off to chase and close down. So the mentality of the players is to pass quickly and at a high tempo. Their mistake is to confuse that with talent though. It is not talent, it is an artefact of the way premiership games play out.

Now think about those players at international level. They are not the best team anymore. And when you're no longer playing in the comfort of wembley then the opposition will not feel they are underdogs who must work their ass off and chase down. So lampard, gerrard have space and time on the ball. Yet they have no idea what to do with it because they're used to being pressured and hurrying. So in possession they look slow and shit. On the other hand, england are the real underdogs and to get a result against a superior team you have to fucking work your bollocks off and chase everything. Its like if fulham want a result against man utd, they have to die for each other to do it. The problem with england is they don't realise they are the equivalent of fulham so they don't work nearly as hard as they need to. And suprise suprise they don't get the result.

The players still think they are at man utd and chelsea where all they need to do is knock it about and the result will come. Unless they accept the truth that they are shit at football and play accordingly, then it'll never change. It's not down to attitude or passion. It's just down to being mistaken.
 
There is a point in there somewhere, but our top 4 have pretty much been in the top 5 or 6 sides in the CL for the last five years, so you can't say these players are out of their depth outside of the Premiership.
 
i guess thats because the top 4 have some pretty decent foreign players in them. and i think in the champions league those english and foriegn players alike know they're inferior and do work hard as a team. they grind out the results with determination. thats certainly how gerrard and carragher won it for us
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40658.msg1124499#msg1124499 date=1277155556]
That is very true, but kinda invalidates half your previous post.
[/quote]

no it doesn't. for instance, the shit english players find it much easier to play alongside world class foreigners in europe. but in the world cup they're playing alongside equally shit players so they struggle and don't know what to do.
 
So lampard, gerrard have space and time on the ball. Yet they have no idea what to do with it because they're used to being pressured and hurrying. So in possession they look slow and shit.

In the CL, they're not playing against the likes of West Brom and still manage to somehow give a reasonable account of themselves despite being brainless kick and rush merchants.

As I said, there was a point somewhere in that original post and it needed a mention of the fact that our top four teams benefit from very good foreign players, but it was a mess overall.
 
thank you for mentioning it. i know all my posts are a mess, but if you tidy it up the end result is better than just assuming im messed up or being insane
 
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40658.msg1124480#msg1124480 date=1277154144]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40658.msg1124023#msg1124023 date=1277065634]
All this talk of Capello being too strict with the players is a joke.

They have all been poor in an England shirt for far too long and when they finally get a manager of Capellos quality, they should keep their heads down and do what they're fucking told.

If it was at club level, I could understand but you only get to play these tournaments a few times in your career and you should be able to put up with a bit of hardship for a couple weeks.
[/quote]

It is not the hardships it is not the players attitude. You're winding yourself up for no reason. It is down to a lack of ability which they can do nothing about.

Think about it at club level. Most of the england team play in the top 4 teams. They are always the favourites. So they are used to the other team being underdogs and working their ass off to chase and close down. So the mentality of the players is to pass quickly and at a high tempo. Their mistake is to confuse that with talent though. It is not talent, it is an artefact of the way premiership games play out.

Now think about those players at international level. They are not the best team anymore. And when you're no longer playing in the comfort of wembley then the opposition will not feel they are underdogs who must work their ass off and chase down. So lampard, gerrard have space and time on the ball. Yet they have no idea what to do with it because they're used to being pressured and hurrying. So in possession they look slow and shit. On the other hand, england are the real underdogs and to get a result against a superior team you have to fucking work your bollocks off and chase everything. Its like if fulham want a result against man utd, they have to die for each other to do it. The problem with england is they don't realise they are the equivalent of fulham so they don't work nearly as hard as they need to. And suprise suprise they don't get the result.

The players still think they are at man utd and chelsea where all they need to do is knock it about and the result will come. Unless they accept the truth that they are shit at football and play accordingly, then it'll never change. It's not down to attitude or passion. It's just down to being mistaken.
[/quote]

You don't appear to know what point you're arguing. You begin and conclude by saying it is not an attitude problem, all the while demonstrating that there is clearly an attitude problem.
 
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40658.msg1124517#msg1124517 date=1277156553]
thank you for mentioning it. i know all my posts are a mess, but if you tidy it up the end result is better than just assuming im messed up or being insane
[/quote]Youre boss.
 
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