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Downing

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Just been discussing our starting XI's with a mate of mine and then he dropped this unexpected gem:

'Shit! We've finally got options'

It's about time.

The price is far too much for Downing, but I d actually think he'll prove to be a good signing, I agree with the 'Riera gave us balance though' arguments.

Looking forward to next season.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=44931.msg1364701#msg1364701 date=1310601912]
I mean we could really trump ITKs from places like RAWK if we had some sort of weirdo idiot savant lying in a swimming pool producing wooden balls with players names on them.

Where is Dreambeliever these days anyway?
[/quote]

Of course, we may need three precogs.

Hmmmmmm......
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=44931.msg1364704#msg1364704 date=1310602206]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=44931.msg1364701#msg1364701 date=1310601912]
I mean we could really trump ITKs from places like RAWK if we had some sort of weirdo idiot savant lying in a swimming pool producing wooden balls with players names on them.

Where is Dreambeliever these days anyway?
[/quote]

Of course, we may need three precogs.

Hmmmmmm......
[/quote]

It's a plan Gene, it's a plan.......................yes where is he?

regards
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44931.msg1364702#msg1364702 date=1310602055]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44931.msg1364696#msg1364696 date=1310601409]
And what would I be judging exactly? I'm not precognitive. We'll see over the season if he was a good signing or not. Downing may not be flashy, but he has end product that's why he was signed. Time will tell if he delivers.
[/quote]

you'd be judging the likelihood of success based on past performance and your own understanding of the issues, which is surely better than what you seem to be advocating, namely: 'kenny knows more about football than me so it's pointless raising any objections at all to any of his footballing decisions'.

well, fine. i suppose it has a certain logic to it - until you realise kenny also signed stephane guiv'arch and andreas anderson, and isn't totally infallible.
[/quote]

I don't think its unreasonable to pay £20m for a left footed winger who wont take a year to settle in, who has produced more crosses than anyone else in the league, was Aston Villa's best player last season, who has made more goalscoring opportunities than 90% of players in the league, who is still improving and wants to play for us, from his club who didn't want to sell.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44931.msg1364702#msg1364702 date=1310602055]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44931.msg1364696#msg1364696 date=1310601409]
And what would I be judging exactly? I'm not precognitive. We'll see over the season if he was a good signing or not. Downing may not be flashy, but he has end product that's why he was signed. Time will tell if he delivers.
[/quote]

you'd be judging the likelihood of success based on past performance and your own understanding of the issues, which is surely better than what you seem to be advocating, namely: 'kenny knows more about football than me so it's pointless raising any objections at all to any of his footballing decisions'.

well, fine. i suppose it has a certain logic to it - until you realise kenny also signed stephane guiv'arch and andreas anderson, and isn't totally infallible.
[/quote]

Oh come on Peter you know Mark Kennedy and Nicky Tanner are the standard on that one 😉

regards
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44931.msg1364707#msg1364707 date=1310602554]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44931.msg1364702#msg1364702 date=1310602055]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44931.msg1364696#msg1364696 date=1310601409]
And what would I be judging exactly? I'm not precognitive. We'll see over the season if he was a good signing or not. Downing may not be flashy, but he has end product that's why he was signed. Time will tell if he delivers.
[/quote]

you'd be judging the likelihood of success based on past performance and your own understanding of the issues, which is surely better than what you seem to be advocating, namely: 'kenny knows more about football than me so it's pointless raising any objections at all to any of his footballing decisions'.

well, fine. i suppose it has a certain logic to it - until you realise kenny also signed stephane guiv'arch and andreas anderson, and isn't totally infallible.
[/quote]

I don't think its unreasonable to pay £20m for a left footed winger who wont take a year to settle in, who has produced more crosses than anyone else in the league, was Aston Villa's best player last season, who has made more goalscoring opportunities than 90% of players in the league, who is still improving and wants to play for us, from his club who didn't want to sell.
[/quote]

But his name does not end in "O" "I" or "A"

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=44931.msg1364687#msg1364687 date=1310600398]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44931.msg1364675#msg1364675 date=1310599463]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44931.msg1364645#msg1364645 date=1310598028]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44931.msg1364632#msg1364632 date=1310597154]
We have just spent 20M pounds on Stewart Downing.

Might be worth some of you re-reading that sentence above a few times. Just until it sinks in.

It's utterly staggering. What's more perplexing/frustrating/mindnumbing is that we could have speent double that and more, and most of you would still be wheeling out youtube clips/in Kenny we trust/Carroll's head/etc etc as some sort of justitification. It doesn't make you less of a fan to admit that this is an unbelievably exhorbitant fee for a slightly-better-than-average footballer that frankly - not one of you wanted 2 months ago.

Not only did we spend 35M on a striker who didn't really fit into our style of play, we've now added 20-30M odd on top of that on players to try and make him play better. I'd have preferred to spend that 60-70M on players who are going to assist the Gerrard's and Suarez's to be honest.

These are some massive risks we're taking. But hey, roll out the youtubes.
[/quote]

The fee reflects the rarity of the player i.e. English left footed winger and he fact that Villa didn't want to sell. We can afford it so I don't see what the problem is with the fee, which really is the going rate for an English international and Premier league proven midfield player.

At the end of the season we'll see if your right and King Kenny's wrong but with all due respect out of his judgement and yours, I know which one I'd rather back.
[/quote]

I'll ignore the first paragrapgh; because justification of someone as "premier league proven" is too fucking hilarious to merit a retort.

All your second paragraph says is that we should just meekly surrender any right to discuss the merits of spending 85M on Henderson, Carroll, Adam and Downing because Kenny's decided to do it. And that's it. Like I said above, this doesn't make you any better of a 'fan' than me, it just makes you a lemming.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone is expecting surrendering of any rights in discussing the issue , but it is more pointless just dismissing it all as bad business.
The powers that be , including Kenny, have done the deals, those of us that agree with them will wish them luck and fingers crossed it all works, those that don't can snipe away, and will have to wait twelve months to tell us how right and clever they were - if it doesn't work out.
At least there is some sort of plan this year.

regards
[/quote]

Agrred Vlad, but I'm not suggesting it's "bad business", I'm saying it's "risky". The "plan" as you rightly put it concerns me. We're spending an absolute fortune on effectively building a different style of play which worries me.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=44931.msg1364701#msg1364701 date=1310601912]
I mean we could really trump ITKs from places like RAWK if we had some sort of weirdo idiot savant lying in a swimming pool producing wooden balls with players names on them.

Where is Dreambeliever these days anyway?
[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAH, this post is killing me, well done Gene.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=44931.msg1364697#msg1364697 date=1310601610]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44931.msg1364632#msg1364632 date=1310597154]
We have just spent 20M pounds on Stewart Downing.

Might be worth some of you re-reading that sentence above a few times. Just until it sinks in.

It's utterly staggering. What's more perplexing/frustrating/mindnumbing is that we could have speent double that and more, and most of you would still be wheeling out youtube clips/in Kenny we trust/Carroll's head/etc etc as some sort of justitification. It doesn't make you less of a fan to admit that this is an unbelievably exhorbitant fee for a slightly-better-than-average footballer that frankly - not one of you wanted 2 months ago.

Not only did we spend 35M on a striker who didn't really fit into our style of play, we've now added 20-30M odd on top of that on players to try and make him play better. I'd have preferred to spend that 60-70M on players who are going to assist the Gerrard's and Suarez's to be honest.

These are some massive risks we're taking. But hey, roll out the youtubes.
[/quote]

You may not have noticed this Ryan , but a lot of the players we have brought in are left footed, it could be a coincidence but I think that is to try and address the lack of balance we have had for a few years now.
I know you play the game to a reasonable standard , but you might not appreciate fully how important balance is to a team


regards
[/quote]

Arf.

I do look forward to Downing on the right and Kuyt on the left.
 
Ryan is completely right, these are exorbitant fees, and while transfer fee inflation is very real and inescapable, clubs worldwide have also been able to find value.


Downing for $20 million is an astounding figure, and far more of a rip off than Andy Carroll at $35 as far as I'm concerned, because there's a small chance that Carroll could mature into some beastly unplayable forward perfectly suited for this league. There's no chance of something like that for Downing at 26. When people say that Downing is premiership proven, they are right, he's proven himself to be an above average, good, but not great winger. I feel like I've said those words before, about a littany of midfielders we've tried. This one is actually a winger, which is nice, but not at this price.


He certainly could mature into his role at Liverpool, where he'll have more talent around him than he's ever had before, but he's at the peak of his career right now and his value will only decrease. That much is certain. This is money that is totally lost to us, and while every team can do that occasionally, we can't do it that often. We are still paying for our past mistakes and the margins are thinner now. Most of our sunk costs should go to improving our situation broadly.



We know exactly how good Downing is, and how brilliant he is not, and while he could be worth more to us if he happens to fit in well with our system of play, and I hope that's the case, there's no question we are paying well over the odds for him.

I'm waiting for our overhauled scouting system to find some real value, I do worry that our profile for players this season seems to be incredibly provincial, moreso than seems necessary by the home grown rules. It'd be ok, if the province didn't produce incredibly underwhelming joyless mediocrity most of the time.
 
I wish people would stop going on about A) Buying Carroll as opposed to somebody else and B) The price we paid for him. The only reason we paid that was because we had to, had Newcastle only wanted £20M then the Torres deal would have been a £35M deal (It was buy us a new forward and £15M), and we went for him because he was the top English goalscorer at that point in the season, he is young and will get better, is a huge target and has handy all round play, it was a great buy at the time, who knew he'd spend almost the rest of the season out injured. Some people need to give Football Manager a break, it's clouding their judgement.

As for Downing, well he was arguably Villa's player of the year last year, is hitting his peak years and has just watched the only other left sided winger at Villa go to UTD, did you really think we we're going to get him for a song?
 
Amazing ability to hit free kicks into the wall. Great.

Or to be a bit more positive - fantastic demonstration of his pin-point accuracy in open play, delivering stationary balls with deadly accuracy with 5 seconds to suss out the options and no defenders able to get near him.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=44931.msg1364721#msg1364721 date=1310603866]
Ryan is completely right, these are exorbitant fees, and while transfer fee inflation is very real and inescapable, clubs worldwide have also been able to find value.


Downing for $20 million is an astounding figure, and far more of a rip off than Andy Carroll at $35 as far as I'm concerned, because there's a small chance that Carroll could mature into some beastly unplayable forward perfectly suited for this league. There's no chance of something like that for Downing at 26. When people say that Downing is premiership proven, they are right, he's proven himself to be an above average, good, but not great winger. I feel like I've said those words before, about a littany of midfielders we've tried. This one is actually a winger, which is nice, but not at this price.


He certainly could mature into his role at Liverpool, where he'll have more talent around him than he's ever had before, but he's at the peak of his career right now and his value will only decrease. That much is certain. This is money that is totally lost to us, and while every team can do that occasionally, we can't do it that often. We are still paying for our past mistakes and the margins are thinner now. Most of our sunk costs should go to improving our situation broadly.



We know exactly how good Downing is, and how brilliant he is not, and while he could be worth more to us if he happens to fit in well with our system of play, and I hope that's the case, there's no question we are paying well over the odds for him.

I'm waiting for our overhauled scouting system to find some real value, I do worry that our profile for players this season seems to be incredibly provincial, moreso than seems necessary by the home grown rules. It'd be ok, if the province didn't produce incredibly underwhelming joyless mediocrity most of the time.


[/quote]

Absolutely spot on, especially the first four words.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=44931.msg1364661#msg1364661 date=1310598735]
I'm still slightly in shock than an Andy Carroll, a Jordan Henderson and a Stuart Downing cost you £70M.

18 months ago that lot were worth half that. Big risk.
[/quote]

They're worth half that now mate.

The pressure, particularly on Carroll, is going to be heavy. Its not as if, I think anyway, we beat off high profile competitors for these signatures, so why the astronomical fees? If it doesn't work out, the sell on fees will be a fraction of what we've paid.

Said before, I don't hate Downing, I think he's ok. Not 20M ok though, we could have trawled Europe and got the same for 7M/8M, I'm convinced. Isn't that what scouts get paid for. Plus, Downing is surely on 80k a week.

Eggs & basket comes to mind.
 
I agree the fees we're handing out for our players are scandalous, and to some other clubs fans we're probably a bit of a laughing stock but if United were buying these lads, everyone in the press etc would be foaming about Fergie's shrewd eye etc.

I think all of them will come good and this is not blind faith. I'm slightly concerned by Downing's purchase but I think he'll do well.
The rest I have no worries with.
Henderson will eventually move into Gerrard's role and Adam is as good as an Alonso we're going to get.
Carroll is going to be an absoloute monster for us. I'm convinced of that.
 
I'm delighted. Yeah he's Downing but he will add something better. The money? It's a commodities market and we're seen as moneybags. We're going to pay over the odds from here on in. Get used to it. Beats when we missed out on others for a few mill. Plus we got Adam for a song so it works out when you spread it around.

As for Carroll- watch his goals against city and let it go. He's won himself a few months judgment free with that brace for me.

I'm also delighted we can now move to other threads and players.!
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=44931.msg1364738#msg1364738 date=1310612486]
I'm delighted. Yeah he's Downing but he will add something better. The money? It's a commodities market and we're seen as moneybags. We're going to pay over the odds from here on in. Get used to it. Beats when we missed out on others for a few mill. Plus we got Adam for a song so it works out when you spread it around.

As for Carroll- watch his goals against city and let it go. He's won himself a few months judgment free with that brace for me.

I'm also delighted we can now move to other threads and players.!
[/quote]

Exactly, remember when we couldn't have Kuyt and Alves so we ended up with Kuyt and Pennant. No matter what people think of Downing, the manager wanted him and he got him, we paid what we needed to and that's a step forward.

Hopefully the Aquilani thread is next to die off, it really does my tits in checking it daily hoping for something to happen only to read the same nothing statements by himself and his agent over and over.
 
Simao on a plane comes to mind Markeh. Only to disembark over a few mill. It's coming together now...especially jova, poulsen on their way...
 
So the old liverpool was:


LFC: We want Simao for 10m
Atletico: He's yours for 12m and not a penny less
LFC: Fuck that noise, I'm going to buy a meh englishman instead. He's a proper winger who can cross the ball and everything, none of that flash shit.




But the new one is a massive improvement:
LFC: We want a meh englishman and are prepared to pay 15M!
Villa: I think we'd rather not sell at that price
LFC: Oh, alright, here's 20M, after all, english players never leave clubs when bigger offers come in, that's only greasy foreigners.
 
the old days - after our benfica defeat in the CL in 2006... When we dithered over a few mill for a target

That they effectively succumbed here at the hands of a player who might have been one of their own merely added to the deflation engulfing this arena long before the end. So hopeful had Liverpool been that the Portugal winger Simao Sabrosa would move to Merseyside last August that the chief executive Rick Parry had even mischievously suggested the player had been sitting on a plane bound for John Lennon Airport when Benfica suddenly hiked the price and wrecked the proposed £8m deal. In scoring a glorious opening goal here to push this tie away from the hosts, Simao cost Liverpool millions regardless.
 
Haha. Mata is better in basically every way and younger, so hopefully we've set a benchmark that prices Arsenal right out of buying him.
 
A few other sites claim the price was eventually 16.5 with add ons. If thats true, then it feels a little better..

I hope he's a massive success, so that we can shut Ryan and Ross up! And hopefully get some humble pie after a few months of great diplays from Stanley Devestating.
;D
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=44931.msg1364762#msg1364762 date=1310623195]
A few other sites claim the price was eventually 16.5 with add ons. If thats true, then it feels a little better..

I hope he's a massive success, so that we can shut Ryan and Ross up! And hopefully get some humble pie after a few months of great diplays from Stanley Devestating.
;D

[/quote]

At least I've been consistent in my view that we're overpaying for a slightly better than average footballer, unlike the rest of you who've flip-flopped from not wanting him in the slightest and not wanting to pay more than 8M for him, to this bullshit over the space of a few months. Based on absolutely fuck all.
 
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