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Match Thread Cup Final - Newcastle (Anfield South) - Sun 16:30

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Notice how we scored a goal yesterday from a midfielder playing a defence splitting pass? Not running to the penalty box, and then passing it sideways for 10 minutes?

A midfielder who can pick a pass. A forward willing to make a run. 2 simple things which we seem to have forgotten or sacrificed for "control".
 
Agreed. The main innovation to our build up play from slot was that we had was a much more aggressive vertical ball to a midfielder that broke the lines. As our midfield has tired, and as our team has lost confidence and spent more time defending, especially gravy, we've been finding that ball less and less, and instead going long. Then we've been playing with a deep 9 or no 9 to try to develop that idea again but with a forward. It isn't an awful idea. Jota used to be pretty good at that. I think Nunez is much worse on the eye doing it, but actually better, if people could look stop punching themselves in the cock three times every time they hear his name.

Instead what's happened is that the old Benítez blanket has covered our toes but we're getting the cold shoulder.

One of the reasons I'm not afraid of change is because its going to happen anyway. The other reason is that I'm bored.

I'm bored having an asymmetrical team left to right. I'm bored not having someone who runs off the last shoulder. The longer we persist with some of the core of the old concept the more I'll just be watching it be worse.
 
StevieM said:
Firstly - I never said we should go full strength in the FA Cup - that’s a figment of your imagination - I said we should have played a bit of a stronger team against Plymouth and give fringe players playing time.

So, no Dreamy, I still disagree with your desire to have us lose cup games.

90% of our first teamers played no part in the FA Cup this season.

Here’s a list of players with zero minutes in the FA Cup:
Allison
Robbo
Konate
Virgil
Gravy
Macca
CJ
Mo
Gakpo

You can add to that the players who played less than 90 mins :
Trent
Gomez
Bradley
Dom
Morton
And Diaz played bang on 90 mins.

So it’s, whatever you want to call it, misleading, inaccurate or just plain bullshit to suggest that our participation in the FA Cup negatively impacted our season.

We would not be any better or worse off in the league and the “weekend off” we had made no difference.

Now if you want to take a different view - you could say that dropping out curtailed the minutes that Slot had for players like Endo, Jota, Chiesa, Harvey & Quansah to get them that little bit more match fit so that they may have been able to have more of an impact when called on.

That’s also before we get into what sort of psychological effect losing has on confidence, etc

Winning breeds winning, while losing doesn’t and it’s not the first time we’ve crumbled from a position of strength.

I’m thankful we’re so far ahead in the league because it’s not the physical impact of the games that worries me, it’s the mental impact of effectively being “bottlers”.

We’re effectively becoming the bottle merchants we accuse Arsenal of being - and they are now likely to play more games than us this season, certainly they now can’t play less games than us. (City also will end up playing much the same amount of games as us).

So no Dreamie, I still don’t believe losing is a good idea or indeed something that should be encouraged.
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The league cup had a bigger impact and we’d have been better binning it off too and maybe we’d have been in better shape to beat PSG.
 
Dreambeliever said:
The league cup had a bigger impact and we’d have been better binning it off too and maybe we’d have been in better shape to beat PSG.
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I think you're over playing this idea a bit, and youve got the general right idea, but just like make some adjustments here and there in terms of how much you're trotting it out and it won't seem so stale. You don't need to bin it off completely, but once in a while it needs a rest and then it'll be refreshed.
 
Dreambeliever said:
The league cup had a bigger impact and we’d have been better binning it off too and maybe we’d have been in better shape to beat PSG.
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The League Cup has no bearing on the PSG game, but I’d have happily seen us use more squad players.

Not sure what your definition of “binning off” is.

We should have used domestics cup games and some league games more to increase the minutes of fringe players - if that results in us progressing, that’s great and we should embrace it - if it results in us going out, that’s also fine - the words should do is have players “more match fit” and ready to step in if required in the primary comps - EPL & CL - it also fosters a winning habit, hopefully.

I don’t see how that’s controversial or even not a sensible approach.
 
Fabio said:
Notice how we scored a goal yesterday from a midfielder playing a defence splitting pass? Not running to the penalty box, and then passing it sideways for 10 minutes?

A midfielder who can pick a pass. A forward willing to make a run. 2 simple things which we seem to have forgotten or sacrificed for "control".
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We also had a forward who found space for a midfielder to pass in to. With just a bit of intent we made opportunities - just look at Jones' chance too. But we spent far too long without any, and giving the team on for the last 20 mins such an uphill task was what ultimately cost us.
 
Modo said:
When was the last time you saw someone in our midfield play this kind of pass:

View: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=736852293570136
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For me, this is why you play an outright 10. Not some 8/10 hybrid nonsense. Just someone who's job is to press and create.

Jones, Elliott or even Szobcan play that pass. But why on earth aren't they allowed to?

Is it solely because all our 9s are that fucking shit?

Has to be tactical
 
Fabio said:
For me, this is why you play an outright 10. Not some 8/10 hybrid nonsense. Just someone who's job is to press and create.

Jones, Elliott or even Szobcan play that pass. But why on earth aren't they allowed to?

Is it solely because all our 9s are that fucking shit?

Has to be tactical
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I don't think it's tactical, I just think we don't have anyone making those sorts of runs anymore. Diaz has never been able to do it, Jota is done, Nunez is shit.
 
StevieM said:
The League Cup has no bearing on the PSG game, but I’d have happily seen us use more squad players.

Not sure what your definition of “binning off” is.

We should have used domestics cup games and some league games more to increase the minutes of fringe players - if that results in us progressing, that’s great and we should embrace it - if it results in us going out, that’s also fine - the words should do is have players “more match fit” and ready to step in if required in the primary comps - EPL & CL - it also fosters a winning habit, hopefully.

I don’t see how that’s controversial or even not a sensible approach.
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It makes a huge difference when the all the club staff are concentrating on a cup game instead of giving them more time to prepare for the next league game. Players aside competing in multiple comps and having the fixture congestion we have in England means it will always be super difficult for an English team to go the distance in the CL and the league in the same season and next to impossible when you throw in other cups.
Cheating cunts aside. The EPL would beds to drop to 16 teams for it to be a level playing field.
 
Szoboszlai's decline in his ability on the ball needs to be studied. His work rate is invaluable, especially with Trent behind him and Salah ahead, but on the ball, he's gone from resembling a De Bruyne-esque clone to looking bang average. There's been some nice moments here and there, but nowhere near enough consistent output.

Despite his flaws, Jones has been far more involved in both starting and finishing attacking moves recently. With him passing and driving through the middle, we've looked noticeably more cohesive and fluid. I think he needs to be starting consistently until he side regains some sense of form.

Gakpos return may cover up some cracks and boost numbers, too.
 
Squiggles said:
Szoboszlai's decline in his ability on the ball needs to be studied. His work rate is invaluable, especially with Trent behind him and Salah ahead, but on the ball, he's gone from resembling a De Bruyne-esque clone to looking bang average. There's been some nice moments here and there, but nowhere near enough consistent output.

Despite his flaws, Jones has been far more involved in both starting and finishing attacking moves recently. With him passing and driving through the middle, we've looked noticeably more cohesive and fluid. I think he needs to be starting consistently until he side regains some sense of form.

Gakpos return may cover up some cracks and boost numbers, too.
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Szobo looks terrified to play a incisive pass or to shoot. Its just bizarre
 
We played 6 games in 15 days, and one of those games went ET and Pens. We then had play again on Sunday in a cup final. The schedule killed us. Mentally and physically it doesn't matter who you are it will take it out of you.
I just want to make sure we get a reaction from the players after they return from international break
 
Squiggles said:
Szoboszlai's decline in his ability on the ball needs to be studied. His work rate is invaluable, especially with Trent behind him and Salah ahead, but on the ball, he's gone from resembling a De Bruyne-esque clone to looking bang average. There's been some nice moments here and there, but nowhere near enough consistent output.

Despite his flaws, Jones has been far more involved in both starting and finishing attacking moves recently. With him passing and driving through the middle, we've looked noticeably more cohesive and fluid. I think he needs to be starting consistently until he side regains some sense of form.

Gakpos return may cover up some cracks and boost numbers, too.
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Comes down to fatigue management for me. Just a few weeks ago he was at the centre of almost everything good on the pitch.

And then poo again. Like he was last season after a bright start.

We've seen it with Gravy. We've seen it with Szobo. Macca intermittently looks world class and bypassed.

For all the success this year, Slot's big challenge for next year is maintaining the quality of the squad and it's key players across an entire season.
 
Dreambeliever said:
It makes a huge difference when the all the club staff are concentrating on a cup game instead of giving them more time to prepare for the next league game. Players aside competing in multiple comps and having the fixture congestion we have in England means it will always be super difficult for an English team to go the distance in the CL and the league in the same season and next to impossible when you throw in other cups.
Cheating cunts aside. The EPL would beds to drop to 16 teams for it to be a level playing field.
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Jesus Dreamie - you know that’s nonsense - can you just stop doubling down- you’re going so low it’s embarrassing.

Is it so hard for you to accept the possibility that there are some positives in not losing every cup game at the first possible opportunity. I mean, I concede that less games can be a benefit - it just depends on whether you like winning things or not - the key thing about dominant teams is they compete and win multiple trophies - whether that be City, Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal or even us in our heyday.

You know City can’t have a bigger squad than us, don’t you?

Also… you realise which league has supplied the most CL finalists in… well pick a timescale, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years… the answer is the same (albeit tied in some timelines), so your assertion that it’s “super difficult” for English teams to progress to the final is utterly wrong - if you bother to actually check the facts.
 
Squiggles said:
Szoboszlai's decline in his ability on the ball needs to be studied. His work rate is invaluable, especially with Trent behind him and Salah ahead, but on the ball, he's gone from resembling a De Bruyne-esque clone to looking bang average. There's been some nice moments here and there, but nowhere near enough consistent output.

Despite his flaws, Jones has been far more involved in both starting and finishing attacking moves recently. With him passing and driving through the middle, we've looked noticeably more cohesive and fluid. I think he needs to be starting consistently until he side regains some sense of form.

Gakpos return may cover up some cracks and boost numbers, too.
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It's definitely irritating to see when you feel like the quality is hidden in there somewhere but it's just not coming through.

Maybe this is the real Szobo and the De Bruyne esque glimpses we see are actually the exception. Who knows.

The only hope is that perhaps if / when he has to do less leg work that he can focus more on his game. I think we saw this happen to some extent with Henderson as well who also was lauded for his work rate (less so his actual ability) and gradually managed to step up the quality on the ball. Took a few years though.
 
Fabio said:
Szobo looks terrified to play an incisive pass or to shoot. Its just bizarre
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I wonder if Slot's message of control and recycle is having an effect. Especially since Szobo's best form was early season with the scent of Klopp still in his nostrils.
 
StevieM said:
Jesus Dreamie - you know that’s nonsense - can you just stop doubling down- you’re going so low it’s embarrassing.

Is it so hard for you to accept the possibility that there are some positives in not losing every cup game at the first possible opportunity. I mean, I concede that less games can be a benefit - it just depends on whether you like winning things or not - the key thing about dominant teams is they compete and win multiple trophies - whether that be City, Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal or even us in our heyday.

You know City can’t have a bigger squad than us, don’t you?

Also… you realise which league has supplied the most CL finalists in… well pick a timescale, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years… the answer is the same (albeit tied in some timelines), so your assertion that it’s “super difficult” for English teams to progress to the final is utterly wrong - if you bother to actually check the facts.
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lol yes mate the one that’s embarrassed is the one being proven right yet again that chasing all four trophies was fucking stupid.

if we had strengthened from a position of dominance going for more trophies could make sense but we never have and we can’t afford to. With the resources at our disposal we should be looking at the league and CL only if we want to give ourselves the best possible chance to win both.

I can’t wait to celebrate us winning the league again even if it’s limping over the line but I will lament the fact we could have big ears too if we had fucked off the domestic cups.

You can call that whatever you.
 
Dreambeliever said:
lol yes mate the one that’s embarrassed is the one being proven right yet again that chasing all four trophies was fucking stupid.

if we had strengthened from a position of dominance going for more trophies could make sense but we never have and we can’t afford to. With the resources at our disposal we should be looking at the league and CL only if we want to give ourselves the best possible chance to win both.

I can’t wait to celebrate us winning the league again even if it’s limping over the line but I will lament the fact we could have big ears too if we had fucked off the domestic cups.

You can call that whatever you.
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Dreamie - we didn’t play our key players in the FA Cup.

Endo played most of his minutes in the domestic cups and his least minutes in the league.

His second least played in comp was the Champions league.

Harvey Elliot’s most comp minutes this season was the FA Cup and he played a total of 7 minutes more in the league than League Cup (and I reckon that’s only because he was injured during early cup rounds).

Don’t see the pattern here - you’ll find similar with Quansah,

The domestic cups had fuck all bearing on the CL - we were progression the League Cup while we were dominating the CL league stage and I can’t repeat again how little involvement our first team squad had in the FA Cup - most were sat on their arse at home when we played Plymouth as they didn’t even travel.

We also had a weekend off before the PSG game which looks like the moment we lost or momentum - so make of that what you will.

Its not about “chasing” cups - ive been trying to get you to stop looking so one dimensionally at this, but its really not getting through is it?

It was always about giving game time to players who aren’t getting game time in the EPL or CL so that they were match fit if needed - and if we went outo of the domestic cups, so be it, but getting those players into form could have made the difference against PSG. The added bonus was always that those couple of extra games could have led to another trophy.

Again, and I can’t believe this interesting with you - I don’t like to see us lose a single game - that includes pre-season friendlies - that doesn’t mean I don’t accept that we will lose or even that it could aid us.

This season… going out of the FA Cup early has given us nothing positive and all the positivity of getting to Slot’s first final has also been trampled by losing it.

In both cases, neither being in or out of the cups has really made that much of a difference to our league challenge - which is increasingly looking like it’s powered by Arsenal’s injuries & limitations and City’s implosion rather than us doing anything spectacularly different than last season.

Not that any of that will matter when we clinch it.
 
Did I miss where we went deep into 4 tournaments because we played every match like it was really important?

I see a team that hasn't played that many matches compared to what we could have, and has had some favourable schedule situations, esp over Christmas and with the Everton rescheduled match.

Did you want us to bin off the champions league? When exactly? After progression? We didn't exactly give a shit about the last match and we did lose it, which would be what you wanted, but that didn't help us with our matchup, did it?

I'd like us to stop binning of the concept of decent football for at least half of every recent game.
 
Everyone agrees we look knackered. The league cup run has been a fair few extra games and has contributed to our recent scheduling nightmare.

It's totally reasonable to assume that the latter has probably contributed to the former.
 
peterhague said:
Everyone agrees we look knackered. The league cup run has been a fair few extra games and has contributed to our recent scheduling nightmare.

It's totally reasonable to assume that the latter has probably contributed to the former.
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We won the games we'd rather win in this period though. I'm all for changing the domestic cups early, but if you end up going along, which we did, then what's the objection?

This period was a hard run of games that began after we had already processed to the final of the league cup and were already out of the fa cup, having not played a recognizable team.

The only cup games that contributed to the fixture congestion were the PSG games and a final. Did we not have room on our busy schedule for a final?
 
Farkmaster said:
We won the games we'd rather win in this period though. I'm all for changing the domestic cups early, but if you end up going along, which we did, then what's the objection?

This period was a hard run of games that began after we had already processed to the final of the league cup and were already out of the fa cup, having not played a recognizable team.

The only cup games that contributed to the fixture congestion were the PSG games and a final. Did we not have room on our busy schedule for a final?
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Just saying that if we agree the players look tired, then fewer games and more rest between the games we had would probably have helped.

Isn't that obvious? It MIGHT not have made a difference, but it's not ridiculous to assume it did.
 
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