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Match Thread Cup Final - Newcastle (Anfield South) - Sun 16:30

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peterhague said:
Just saying that if we agree the players look tired, then fewer games and more rest between the games we had would probably have helped.

Isn't that obvious? It MIGHT not have made a difference, but it's not ridiculous to assume it did.
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I think we traded an insane run of fixtures in January that usually gives us a hangover in February for the same but in February for March.

Its just odd to blame fixture congestion on deep commitments to cups when we peaced out of two fairly early and the other one contributed one fixture to the period that was congested.
 
Farkmaster said:
I think we traded an insane run of fixtures in January that usually gives us a hangover in February for the same but in February for March.

Its just odd to blame fixture congestion on deep commitments to cups when we peaced out of two fairly early and the other one contributed one fixture to the period that was congested.
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For me it's not really about the detail of exactly when the burden became too much. Maybe you're right that the few extra games in the Carabao made little difference - it's possible. Maybe the real culprit is the CL, say, and to that extent it's effectively unavoidable. I'm just irritated when Stevie smugly talks down to DB as if his entire argument is ridiculous. I don't think it is. I think we've got decent reason to believe that extra fixtures have hurt us in a few seasons now. It's a legit concern.
 
peterhague said:
For me it's not really about the detail of exactly when the burden became too much. Maybe you're right that the few extra games in the Carabao made little difference - it's possible. Maybe the real culprit is the CL, say, and to that extent it's effectively unavoidable. I'm just irritated when Stevie smugly talks down to DB as if his entire argument is ridiculous. I don't think it is. I think we've got decent reason to believe that extra fixtures have hurt us in a few seasons now. It's a legit concern.
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I definitely have wanted to bin off the domestic cups in previous seasons, and thought it got in the way. I just don't think it applies here, particularly. It's definitely not a silly argument on its face, more generally.
 
peterhague said:
For me it's not really about the detail of exactly when the burden became too much. Maybe you're right that the few extra games in the Carabao made little difference - it's possible. Maybe the real culprit is the CL, say, and to that extent it's effectively unavoidable. I'm just irritated when Stevie smugly talks down to DB as if his entire argument is ridiculous. I don't think it is. I think we've got decent reason to believe that extra fixtures have hurt us in a few seasons now. It's a legit concern.
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Hang on a minute Peter - that’s hardly fair - I get you have an issue with me, you always have had, but I’m not exactly going in hard on Dreamie and I’ve tried to be clear that I can accept some of what he spouts, while trying to present an alternative viewpoint and backing it up with I would consider actual facts that hardly make my position ridiculous either.

And if you want through around accusations of smugness, I’d throw them back at Dreamie, who steadfastly refuses to see any other point other than his own and can’t wait to play the “I told you so card” at every possible opportunity.

We’re not going to have a fixture pile up now - in fact we’re not going to play anymore games across all competitions than any other English team in Europe - actually Spurs, Utd & Chelsea are likely to play more.

I don’t see how pointing that out is “smug”.

I’d also ask you to have a good look in the mirror too, if we’re talking about smugness.
 
I make no apology for pulling Dreamie on things I think are ridiculous.

I’m hardly the most venomous poster on here and I’d say I consistently have a crack at anything I think is nonsense - regardless of who it is.

The thing with Dreamie is - he has a method, he constantly posts something “contraversal” then doubles down on it - you all know it and see it - whether it be “hoping” to lose games, or signing shit Newcastle players or Ange being a “great” manager.

I have no problem with the concept that going out of a domestic cup competition early might have a positive effect - but Dreamie only landed in that after Peter brought that up while calling be a bit of a cunt.

Honestly… I don’t think Dreamie meant that at all, and he’s been at pains to point out how delighted he is we dropped out of cups early as if it’s a badge of honour on his part - and even though the act of dropping out early is looking very much likely to not have improved our season, he will by even come close to admitting, that maybe it was the shit hot great thing he told us it was.

If I am to be a smug bastard… this is it…. Maybe I’m not the “cunt” in all of this.
 
Farkmaster said:
I definitely have wanted to bin off the domestic cups in previous seasons, and thought it got in the way. I just don't think it applies here, particularly. It's definitely not a silly argument on its face, more generally.
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My issue is yes we won the other games in those periods where the league cup and CL first phase were running and the crazy Xmas period but at what cost? We picked up significant injuries and put a mental and physical strain on the squad to reach the least valuable cup final and to crash out of the CL at the first proper hurdle. Now yes we were unlucky that we met a great side and maybe we’ve have lost anyway but for me not having the first half of the season conjested with the league cup would have helped maybe just maybe we wouldn’t have faced PSG horribly off form and with some key players injured or lacking confidence or knackered.
We will also try to win the CL and win the league so for me I would happy for us to sacrifice the league cup and fa cup in that pursuit until they do something with the fixtures.
 
StevieM said:
I make no apology for pulling Dreamie on things I think are ridiculous.

I’m hardly the most venomous poster on here and I’d say I consistently have a crack at anything I think is nonsense - regardless of who it is.

The thing with Dreamie is - he has a method, he constantly posts something “contraversal” then doubles down on it - you all know it and see it - whether it be “hoping” to lose games, or signing shit Newcastle players or Ange being a “great” manager.

I have no problem with the concept that going out of a domestic cup competition early might have a positive effect - but Dreamie only landed in that after Peter brought that up while calling be a bit of a cunt.

Honestly… I don’t think Dreamie meant that at all, and he’s been at pains to point out how delighted he is we dropped out of cups early as if it’s a badge of honour on his part - and even though the act of dropping out early is looking very much likely to not have improved our season, he will by even come close to admitting, that maybe it was the shit hot great thing he told us it was.

If I am to be a smug bastard… this is it…. Maybe I’m not the “cunt” in all of this.
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Controversial me hole. Dropping out of the FA Cup absolutely helps us win the league which is one of two primary goals every season.

If we had dropped out of the league cup earlier too then I will always believe it would have increased our chances of beating PSG.

We went deep in 4 a couple of times recently and won neither the league or CL.

This year we didn’t and we look very likely to win the league.

I get enough shit on here so yes I’ll absolutely say my assertion was more on the miners than yours.

Most people think I’m a cunt anyway so that will never bother me.
 
When was the fixture congestion from the cup earlier this season? The additional fixtures, excepting the final, coincided with times when the CL wasnt going, and us resting the team to get knocked out by Plymouth in the cup. It was at worst midweek and weekend which is kind of normal.

I think it's reasonable to look askance at the idea that if we'd binned off that final we'd be better. Surely by your logic we could fuck our league chances by not being out of that.

We've looked questionable for weeks and it's not just because of tiredness.

We are talking about this year. Nothing else. You've repeatedly gone back to this idea like it's a revelation that some cups can be a poisoned chalice, but you're crow barring it in here.
 
I’m bored on a train to London so decided to do some cups killing our Champions League journey and contributing to us throwing away the league.

25 September- West Ham

Liverpool: Kelleher, Gomez, Endo (Morton, 81), Nunez, Chiesa (Salah, 59), Jones, Gakpo, Jota (Mac Allister, 59), Tsimikas (Robertson, 81), Quansah, Bradley.

Only Salah and Mac got minutes from our “best XI” and that was just half an hour. With Robbo barely getting a sweat.

Good minutes for Gomez, Endo, Gakpo, etc

30 October - Brighton

Jaros, Gomez, Endo (Nyoni, 64), Diaz, Szoboszlai (Nunez, 70), Jones, Gakpo (Salah, 70), Robertson, Quansah (Konate, 90+1), Morton (Mac Allister, 64), Bradley.
Hardly full strength yet again. No trent, Virgil and Salah barely got on the pitch. Same for Mac and Konate. Valuable minutes for the rest.

18 December - Southampton

Liverpool: Kelleher, Gomez (Tsimikas, 46), Endo, Nunez, Mac Allister (McConnell, 63), Gakpo (Jota, 63), Elliott, Alexander-Arnold (Chiesa, 46), Quansah, Morton, Nyoni (Danns, 86).

Mac started but didn’t finish. Trent hit a half. Valuable minutes for other squadies.

8th January- Spurs 1st leg

Alisson, Van Dijk, Mac Allister (Konate, 80), Salah, Jones, Gakpo (Diaz, 60), Jota (Nunez, 60), Tsimikas, Gravenberch, Quansah (Endo, 30), Bradley (Alexander-Arnold, 60).

Stepped it up a little. Some minutes management with Konate, Mac, Gakpo/Diaz, Jota, Nunez and Bradley/Trent.

Keep in mind we had Accrington Stanley the weekend after this seemed like a good game to have 1st teamers play before Forest the weekend after so it’s not 10 days off.


11 January- Accrington Stanley

Kelleher, Endo (Nyoni, 78), Szoboszlai (Chiesa, 46), Nunez, Elliott, Jota, Tsimikas, Alexander-Arnold (Bradley, 60), Ngumoha (Danns, 72), Quansah, Morton (McConnell, 60).
Slobby gets 45 and Trent 60 following is mong show against the scum. The rest squaddies got valuable minutes.

29 January - PSV

I’ve included this as a dead rubber.

Kelleher, Endo, Chiesa, Gakpo (Morton, 51), Elliott, Tsimikas, Robertson (Nyoni, 64), McConnell, Danns (Nallo, 83), Quansah, Bradley.

Only Robertson, Gakpo and Bradley can make a serious case to get into our best XI. Rest left at home.

9 February- Plymouth.

Kelleher, Gomez (Mabaya, 10 [Nunez, 58]), Endo, Diaz, Chiesa, Elliott, Jota, Tsimikas, McConnell, Quansah, Nyoni (Kone-Doherty, 76).

Who there would start a league game? Diaz. That’s it. Gomez did get injured but that’s what Gomez does.

Conclusion. The cups had next to no impact outside of our core/best XI to perform in the league or champions league.

The real issue is the amount of minutes van Dijk, Salah, Mac, Szoboszlai, etc have played when you have Elliott and Endo getting fewer than 800 minutes pitch time up to now then having and McConnell and Chiesa with even less.
 
Farkmaster said:
When was the fixture congestion from the cup earlier this season? The additional fixtures, excepting the final, coincided with times when the CL wasnt going, and us resting the team to get knocked out by Plymouth in the cup. It was at worst midweek and weekend which is kind of normal.

I think it's reasonable to look askance at the idea that if we'd binned off that final we'd be better. Surely by your logic we could fuck our league chances by not being out of that.

We've looked questionable for weeks and it's not just because of tiredness.

We are talking about this year. Nothing else. You've repeatedly gone back to this idea like it's a revelation that some cups can be a poisoned chalice, but you're crow barring it in here.
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I think van Dijk is mentally drained. He’s made some silly mistakes recently. Gravenberch looks leggy as does Slobby and Mac. Only Diaz has been overplayed and that’s only recently. There’s no excuse for the other.

Our problem has been a gaping hole up front. Jota is broken and Nunez checked out. We can’t get the ball to stick up front which means we are on the back foot way more than we should b
 
It's a long held tradition on this forum that Australian based posters end up having a spat with each other. Stevie is a perfect gent when compared to Ryan.

However, he has once again, besmirched our own beloved DB when he said:

StevieM said:
I’d throw them back at Dreamie, who steadfastly refuses to see any other point other than his own and can’t wait to play the “I told you so card” at every possible opportunity.
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The poor Galway exile has NEVER used the "I told you so card". He does, however, have a full deck of these cards:

i-informed-you-thusly-sheldon.gif
 
tombrown said:
It's a long held tradition on this forum that Australian based posters end up having a spat with each other. Stevie is a perfect gent when compared to Ryan.

However, he has once again, besmirched our own beloved DB when he said:



The poor Galway exile has NEVER used the "I told you so card". He does, however, have a full deck of these cards:

i-informed-you-thusly-sheldon.gif
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You mean Irish Australian immigrants? There’s a theme.
 
Dreambeliever said:
Controversial me hole. Dropping out of the FA Cup absolutely helps us win the league which is one of two primary goals every season.

If we had dropped out of the league cup earlier too then I will always believe it would have increased our chances of beating PSG.

We went deep in 4 a couple of times recently and won neither the league or CL.

This year we didn’t and we look very likely to win the league.

I get enough shit on here so yes I’ll absolutely say my assertion was more on the miners than yours.

Most people think I’m a cunt anyway so that will never bother me.
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There’s an idea that to win the League you need to play as few players as possible, promoting consistency. Certainly data will show that, for example, when you have a more consistent CB pairing (and we’re talking good players) your defence is better.

The problem with that is you are much more likely to exhaust players- particularly when you’re in Europe and the fact that it’s a league format means the same theory of less changes applies - though in this case there’s more opportunity to change due to some games being against lower rated teams.

If we’d been playing the same players in the FA Cup as the league and/or Champions league, you’d have a very valid point - but this year we largely haven’t.

Momo has done the legwork - but time-iterate, you’re still banging the drum that dropping out of the FA Cup helped us win the league - which doesn’t stack up because none of our key players that play in the league or champions league regularly had minutes in the FA Cup.

That may not have been the case in previous years - so the best case scenario is you’re conflating previous seasons with the current season and it means you’re missing what’s likely the main cause of our fatigue and why we went out of the CL and lost the LC Final - which is we’ve overloaded key players in EPL & CL games and under-utilised key fringe players can those games.

You talk about Endo being your favourite player - let’s take him as a case study.

He’s logged less minutes in the league than the 2 FA Cup games he played and logged less minutes in the CL & League combined than in the League Cup - is he fatigued, burnt out, injured or have his performances suggested he’s woefully out of form?

Only once in the League has Endo played more than 30 minutes and as far as the League Cup goes he started the first 3 games before dropping to the bench for the semis and final.

There are instances when we’ve had opportunity to rest key players in league games that we haven’t taken - that’s what’s causing player fatigue - not cup games in which they didn’t play.
 
StevieM said:
.

There are instances when we’ve had opportunity to rest key players in league games that we haven’t taken - that’s what’s causing player fatigue - not cup games in which they didn’t play.
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I looked across other fixtures, and haven’t looked into the data on it, but what appeared to me is the Slott likes to make subs with

Left backs
Combos of Mac, Slobby and Jones
Diaz, Gakpo, Jota and Nunez

That’s it. To me, this is bonkers. With those you could swap and change spreading full games between those three groups.

Take the 5-0 over West Ham. Salah played the full 90 and Gakpo was taken off. Robertson for Tsimikas. McConnell and Danns were unused. To me that’s illogical.
 
Call me a silly goose if you must, but I always thought winning stuff gave extra motivation to win more in other competitions

Momo showed that a lot of the standard first xi didn't play in the cups. Arguably only THE CL league games. Should we have played the kids against Madrid so we could have energy for now?

Should we me hole
 
I half think it's a motivation issue as well tbh. We've been some variation of poor since new year. We managed to grind out results, but we've not looked our best.
 
Momos’s right and the data is clearly showing that Slot hasn’t shuffled his pack in league games as much as he might have.

I can only assume it’s down to the principle of winning leagues with a tight team using as few players as possible. Slot’s been pretty clear that he saw the cup games as an opportunity to give fringe players more game time and was disappointed we went out of the FA Cup early - and in the League Cup he didn’t ramp up key player involvement unto the semis.

Again… I’ll say it… we got the weekend off before the first PSG that Dreamie was so desperate for us to have - it didn’t help us.

iIf we wanted players fresh for the 2nd PSG game why didn’t we start Harvey rather than bring him on at half time and why did we wait till the 81st minute to bring on Endo for Gravy?

If we thought we’d be tired for the League Cup Final after playing extra time against PSG, why didn’t we start with CJ, Harvey & Endo given they weren’t involved until extra time v PSG.

Now, I think Slot hasn’t shuffled been great and I’ll happily chalk this Up to experience and I have the benefit of hindsight - but it’s as clear as day to me that had different calls been made, there’s a good chance we’d have one trophy in the bag, still have a chance to win 2 more trophies and still be on the verge of winning the league.
 
Farkmaster said:
When was the fixture congestion from the cup earlier this season? The additional fixtures, excepting the final, coincided with times when the CL wasnt going, and us resting the team to get knocked out by Plymouth in the cup. It was at worst midweek and weekend which is kind of normal.

I think it's reasonable to look askance at the idea that if we'd binned off that final we'd be better. Surely by your logic we could fuck our league chances by not being out of that.

We've looked questionable for weeks and it's not just because of tiredness.

We are talking about this year. Nothing else. You've repeatedly gone back to this idea like it's a revelation that some cups can be a poisoned chalice, but you're crow barring it in here.
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The first round meant we played 5 games in 2 weeks and never had more than 3 days to prepare for a game or recovery from the last, whether that be tactically, physically or mentally.

The next round meant we played 6 games in 17 days against argument. Never getting a needed break through the season to recharge.

Quarter final meant zero opportunity for rest through the crazy Xmas period.

The two legged semi final along with the FA Cup meant we were shagged by the middle if Feb.

Having a 7/8 days rest 3/4 times during the insane fixture congestion could have made all the difference.

A game of high intensity and importance every 3 days for 9 months while trying to win everything is not sustainable with our squad size has shown year after year.
 
MomoWASright said:
I’m bored on a train to London so decided to do some cups killing our Champions League journey and contributing to us throwing away the league.

25 September- West Ham

Liverpool: Kelleher, Gomez, Endo (Morton, 81), Nunez, Chiesa (Salah, 59), Jones, Gakpo, Jota (Mac Allister, 59), Tsimikas (Robertson, 81), Quansah, Bradley.

Only Salah and Mac got minutes from our “best XI” and that was just half an hour. With Robbo barely getting a sweat.

Good minutes for Gomez, Endo, Gakpo, etc

30 October - Brighton

Jaros, Gomez, Endo (Nyoni, 64), Diaz, Szoboszlai (Nunez, 70), Jones, Gakpo (Salah, 70), Robertson, Quansah (Konate, 90+1), Morton (Mac Allister, 64), Bradley.
Hardly full strength yet again. No trent, Virgil and Salah barely got on the pitch. Same for Mac and Konate. Valuable minutes for the rest.

18 December - Southampton

Liverpool: Kelleher, Gomez (Tsimikas, 46), Endo, Nunez, Mac Allister (McConnell, 63), Gakpo (Jota, 63), Elliott, Alexander-Arnold (Chiesa, 46), Quansah, Morton, Nyoni (Danns, 86).

Mac started but didn’t finish. Trent hit a half. Valuable minutes for other squadies.

8th January- Spurs 1st leg

Alisson, Van Dijk, Mac Allister (Konate, 80), Salah, Jones, Gakpo (Diaz, 60), Jota (Nunez, 60), Tsimikas, Gravenberch, Quansah (Endo, 30), Bradley (Alexander-Arnold, 60).

Stepped it up a little. Some minutes management with Konate, Mac, Gakpo/Diaz, Jota, Nunez and Bradley/Trent.

Keep in mind we had Accrington Stanley the weekend after this seemed like a good game to have 1st teamers play before Forest the weekend after so it’s not 10 days off.


11 January- Accrington Stanley

Kelleher, Endo (Nyoni, 78), Szoboszlai (Chiesa, 46), Nunez, Elliott, Jota, Tsimikas, Alexander-Arnold (Bradley, 60), Ngumoha (Danns, 72), Quansah, Morton (McConnell, 60).
Slobby gets 45 and Trent 60 following is mong show against the scum. The rest squaddies got valuable minutes.

29 January - PSV

I’ve included this as a dead rubber.

Kelleher, Endo, Chiesa, Gakpo (Morton, 51), Elliott, Tsimikas, Robertson (Nyoni, 64), McConnell, Danns (Nallo, 83), Quansah, Bradley.

Only Robertson, Gakpo and Bradley can make a serious case to get into our best XI. Rest left at home.

9 February- Plymouth.

Kelleher, Gomez (Mabaya, 10 [Nunez, 58]), Endo, Diaz, Chiesa, Elliott, Jota, Tsimikas, McConnell, Quansah, Nyoni (Kone-Doherty, 76).

Who there would start a league game? Diaz. That’s it. Gomez did get injured but that’s what Gomez does.

Conclusion. The cups had next to no impact outside of our core/best XI to perform in the league or champions league.

The real issue is the amount of minutes van Dijk, Salah, Mac, Szoboszlai, etc have played when you have Elliott and Endo getting fewer than 800 minutes pitch time up to now then having and McConnell and Chiesa with even less.
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Like I said it’s not just the players, it’s the coaching staff and the whole club in a constant cycle of games every 3 days. No chance to catch our breath.
 
Fabio said:
I half think it's a motivation issue as well tbh. We've been some variation of poor since new year. We managed to grind out results, but we've not looked our best.
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Motivation plays a role, but I believe it's primarily about squad management regarding fitness and rotation.
It's odd to see us still playing Van Dijk and Salah for 90 minutes in nearly every game as if they're still 27 years old.
 
StevieM said:
Hang on a minute Peter - that’s hardly fair - I get you have an issue with me, you always have had, but I’m not exactly going in hard on Dreamie and I’ve tried to be clear that I can accept some of what he spouts, while trying to present an alternative viewpoint and backing it up with I would consider actual facts that hardly make my position ridiculous either.

And if you want through around accusations of smugness, I’d throw them back at Dreamie, who steadfastly refuses to see any other point other than his own and can’t wait to play the “I told you so card” at every possible opportunity.

We’re not going to have a fixture pile up now - in fact we’re not going to play anymore games across all competitions than any other English team in Europe - actually Spurs, Utd & Chelsea are likely to play more.

I don’t see how pointing that out is “smug”.

I’d also ask you to have a good look in the mirror too, if we’re talking about smugness.
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I don't have a problem with you beyond your tendency to talk to certain posters as if they're pathetic morons. It comes across as bullying.
 
peterhague said:
I don't have a problem with you beyond your tendency to talk to certain posters as if they're pathetic morons. It comes across as bullying.
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Fair enough - it’s not my intention to bully, but I admit I can be a bit exasperated by some of the more ridiculous suggestions that I reckon are foolish.

It probably reflects my personality to be flippant, “attempt humour”, swear a lot and call people out for talking bullshit - but it’s not meant to be aggressive.

I’ll take it on board though.
 
Dreambeliever said:
The first round meant we played 5 games in 2 weeks and never had more than 3 days to prepare for a game or recovery from the last, whether that be tactically, physically or mentally.

The next round meant we played 6 games in 17 days against argument. Never getting a needed break through the season to recharge.

Quarter final meant zero opportunity for rest through the crazy Xmas period.

The two legged semi final along with the FA Cup meant we were shagged by the middle if Feb.

Having a 7/8 days rest 3/4 times during the insane fixture congestion could have made all the difference.

A game of high intensity and importance every 3 days for 9 months while trying to win everything is not sustainable with our squad size has shown year after year.
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The first round is quite challenging to bin off, and we haven't had a game of high intensity and importance every 3 days. We've had games every 4 days far more often and that's a massive difference and doable.

We have had the most reasonable schedule we've had in recent memory, our bad congestion came just now, and we suffered the effects at the tail end, predictably. Slot hasn't managed minutes well, and we also haven't been comfortable enough in games to manage minutes as well recently.

If you're saying we should have risked going out by rotating more, sure. I don't have a problem with that, as I've said, I think klopp had it right, try to lose these and fail.

But, I don't think the carabao cup made or will make much difference this season. Unless you think we could have won the champions league, and then therefore had no issues with all those games later in the season for some reason. Slot could have had some players on about 10 percent less minutes now, and that may have made a difference also.

It's just like, you seem to want to edit the season ahistorically and say, well, like, I wish we had lost this fixture, then we'd be better off.

If you're going to magically make assumptions about changing the result of a fixture, I'll go with don't play like cunts against newcastle, win the cup, and we aren't talking about this.
 
Ironically, if we hadn't rested so many players in the final game of the Champions League group stage, we probably wouldn't have lost against PSV with such a weakened team and therefore wouldn't have had to play PSG in the first knockout round.
 
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