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City and FFP

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Mors

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Well, last year they lost 98million, and this year, they lost.........drum roll................51million.
So that's -148million over 2 of the 3 accounting periods.

So, by my calculations:

1. They need to make a profit of about £100million on their next set of books
2. FFP is an absolute load of bollocks
3. They will not be getting banned from the champions league


What actually is the point of it if only the poorer clubs take any notice? The poor clubs don't have any chance at making the champions league anyway.
 
Oh, I've just read that they're spending 350mill on a new training ground that will produce some youth players aswell, so this is allowed to be offset against the debt.
So if you build a new shiny 350mill training ground, this will offset 350mill of losses. They might aswell go out and buy a few more players now!

What a farce.
 
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So in the last few years, their matchday revenue has stayed the same, their tv money has gradually grown, but their commercial revenue has gone through the roof due to them sponsoring themselves.
 
I wonder if FSG are planning a legal challenge if Man City and Chelsea go on like this - especially if we're taking the rules seriously. With them being American and all, they're well used to lawyering up.

I imagine UEFA have given themselves enough weasel words to allow them to make it up as they go along still but it would be fucking hilarious if we did this and got some clubs kicked out.
 
I wonder if FSG are planning a legal challenge if Man City and Chelsea go on like this - especially if we're taking the rules seriously. With them being American and all, they're well used to lawyering up.

I imagine UEFA have given themselves enough weasel words to allow them to make it up as they go along still but it would be fucking hilarious if we did this and got some clubs kicked out.
It never works well for us when we go against other clubs in the league, they'd all gang up on us.
 
City's top 5 sponsors by value are:
Etihad
Nike
Etisalat
Abu Dhabi Tourism
Aaber


What a piss take.
 
Well, last year they lost 98million, and this year, they lost.........drum roll................51million.
So that's -148million over 2 of the 3 accounting periods.

So, by my calculations:

1. They need to make a profit of about £100million on their next set of books
2. FFP is an absolute load of bollocks
3. They will not be getting banned from the champions league


What actually is the point of it if only the poorer clubs take any notice? The poor clubs don't have any chance at making the champions league anyway.
What happened to the other million?
 
Daniel Geey, the competition and football law specialist at the firm Field Fisher Waterhouse, who has advised clients and written extensively on FFP, said: “ With City confident that they will comply with FFP, although the £150m headline aggregate loss figure seems high this can be recalculated when UEFA reliefs like pre 2010 wages, infrastructure, community and youth development costs are removed. As such, the club for FFP purposes are then likely to be around the permitted €45m loss cut off point.”
 
@Rosco - I'd be interested to hear your take of the FFP.
I mean, it looks like a joke to me that clubs like Chelsea, City, PSG etc. have sugar daddies with deep pockets, hence can buy success. Is FFP not supposed to block things like that?
I admit not being familiar with the details of FFP. Certainly not with all the legal aspects of it. But can you give me the principles of it as you see it?
 
Everybody should have a fixed amount to sown on washes & transfers that should not be based on financial clout.

Some of that money might have to flow back to the fans then.

Perish the thought.
 
@jimmy - I don't know anything about the legal machinations of it and I suspect we won't get a handle on it until the enforcement bit comes in, which I think is in March.

The idea behind it is on the face if it well meaning - they say they want to stop clubs spending themselves out of existence. That said I don't think many clubs cease to exist after financial problems - there's always someone willing to take them on.

It doesn't seem designed to level the playing field and make the sport more competitive - there are much more effective ways to do that. Other than obviously trying to limit the sugar daddys.
FFP was as much about giving established clubs like ourselves a solid foot hold from which to make money for the owners. It can be passed off as helping to make the game more competitive but I agree with those that argue it just maintains the status quo.

There'd be about ten things i would do before FFP to level the playing field. If the intention was truly to make the game more competitive there's way more that can be done - but clubs at our level would clearly lobby against that. And the threat of a European league

I don't know much about the exemptions - but spending on stadium facilities and youth development is encouraged which is positive. Provided the receipts back it up.

I posted an article a while back about the various little tricks you can do to take advantage of the rules - we changed our accounting year for this reason. The main issue seems to me to be the sponsorship, and I think is the issue that will decide whether FFP is a joke or not.

Our efforts to increase sponsorship/ partnerships are totally above board - no related companies are sponsoring us.

John Henry made the salient point that he's like to see the losing bids for those sponsorship deals city are doing - and if UEFA don't look at that the rules are a farce. Some of those city sponsors have absolutely nothing to gain from the deals- it's as clear as day they're bullshit covers for the owners putting more money in. PSG has the most outrageous deal for me, they signed a deal in 2013 with a related company which included selling sponsorship rights for the previous year, money for nothing.

One concern I'd have is that the waters have been sufficiently muddied by various companies l, trusts, off shore corporations etc
so that it's impossible for anyone to determine quickly who owns the companies. So UEFA will have difficulty determining what's a related company. I think Ken Bates managed to hide his ownership of Leeds for ages this way. You would hope common sense prevails, but would you bet on it ?
 
There was an article a while back that was written in a cynical fashion but avoided cleverly making any allegations.

It basically spelt out the fact that city owners representatives invited the uefa heads & FFP team to one f their five star resorts for a conference that lasted 4 days. The team stated it was to clarify the rules, one of which was around sponsorship, & they made it clear that sponsorship would be independently assessed based upon other sponsorship deals. They also made it clear that deals that were completely unique would be very difficult to rule against as there was no comparison to make.

A couple of weeks later the Etihad deal was signed & included a very specific, unique & expensive deal to sponsor the surrounding area & specific businesses & organisations around the stadium.

It's bent as fuck.

I also read in another article that the independent assessors will be made up of representation from football finance experts, many of whom are working for the company's employed by the richest clubs to ensure they comply with the FFP rules!
 
There was an article a while back that was written in a cynical fashion but avoided cleverly making any allegations.

It basically spelt out the fact that city owners representatives invited the uefa heads & FFP team to one f their five star resorts for a conference that lasted 4 days. The team stated it was to clarify the rules, one of which was around sponsorship, & they made it clear that sponsorship would be independently assessed based upon other sponsorship deals. They also made it clear that deals that were completely unique would be very difficult to rule against as there was no comparison to make.

A couple of weeks later the Etihad deal was signed & included a very specific, unique & expensive deal to sponsor the surrounding area & specific businesses & organisations around the stadium.

It's bent as fuck.

I also read in another article that the independent assessors will be made up of representation from football finance experts, many of whom are working for the company's employed by the richest clubs to ensure they comply with the FFP rules!

Typical.

In a similar note the Gazprom Champions League deal is very iffy too
 
@Rosco - thanks for some eye opening insights. So the name FFP is really misleading, isn't it? I always thought FFP was about keeping the game fair in terms of making every club to spend only about as much as the level of revenues it can produce. Turns out that it's very easy to work around it as you mentioned in your post re sponsorship deals and PSG.
Also @FoxForceFive - thanks for the Etihad story, which emphasises the point made by Rosco.

So it looks indeed that the rich and powerful ones will always find the ways to bend the rule their way, employing the top experts and in many cases those same experts who make the rules... I guess that as Rosco said - we too have an interest in Status Quo. At least to some degree...

As an example - I find it outrageous that a company like Emirates sponsors 4 of Europe's top clubs - Real Madrid, PSG, AC Milan and Arsenal + many more. It's hard to believe that in and age where airlines suffer massive loses, there is one that can spend so much money on sponsorship deals.
 
On a sidenote, Everton:
[article=http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2014/01/30/everton-announce-financial-results]• Turnover increased by almost £6m
• Gate receipts increased by £0.7m to £17.5m
• Broadcast revenue increased by £2.9m
• Other operating costs reduced by almost £1m and down 8.4% from 2009/10
• Operating profit before player trading of £0.7m versus £6.4m loss in 2011/12
• Net profit swing of £10.7m
• No increase in borrowings

Everton Football Club is well placed to capitalise on the new Premier League broadcast deal after the 2013 Annual Report and Accounts revealed its turnover had increased by 7.3% to £86.4m due to increased commercial revenues (up by £2.3m) and a strong Barclays Premier League campaign that resulted in a 6th placed finish, generating an increase in broadcast revenue (£2.9m) and improved gate receipts (£0.7m).

The Club made an operating profit of £0.7m before player trading, compared to a loss of £6.4m in the previous 12 months. There was also a small decrease in borrowings for the period of £0.7m, and a decrease in other operating costs from £22.7m to £21.8m.

The Club continued to invest in the playing squad with the permanent re-signing of Steven Pienaar, the arrivals of Steven Naismith, Kevin Mirallas, John Stones and Bryan Oviedo, alongside awarding new contracts to Leon Osman, Phil Jagielka, Sylvain Distin, Seamus Coleman and Tim Howard.

Profit on player sales increased to £15.6m (Jack Rodwell, Joseph Yobo, Tim Cahill and others) from £14.1m in 2011/12, and with the inclusion of amortisation of player contracts (£10.6m compared to £12.9m a year earlier), the financial results show a £10.7m swing in net profit from a £9.1m loss in 2011/12 to a £1.6m profit in 2012/13. The figures published do not take into account the new Premier League broadcast deal that began in August 2013. [/article]
 
Colin Murray (yes, I know) said before that one of the big inputs to city's increased commercial revenue is by selling their intellectual property rights to other clubs.

The other clubs being? Manchester City ladies FC.
Melbourne Hearts.
New York FC.

All of whom they fucking own.
 
Exactly. If it's blatant to us lot, then surely accountants can see straight through it. I can only presume it was like a parent threatening a child with a smack if they don't behave, but they dont actually believe in smacking children and would never actually do it. I presume they hoped the warning that they might do 'something' was enough to scare a few clubs into sorting themselves out. But by allowing them to sponsor themselves, and write off debt by having more debt building a new training ground is ludicrous. 'Oh, we've overspent by 200million, we'd better go and spend another 200million on the training ground to cover it'.
 
Exactly. If it's blatant to us lot, then surely accountants can see straight through it. I can only presume it was like a parent threatening a child with a smack if they don't behave, but they dont actually believe in smacking children and would never actually do it. I presume they hoped the warning that they might do 'something' was enough to scare a few clubs into sorting themselves out. But by allowing them to sponsor themselves, and write off debt by having more debt building a new training ground is ludicrous. 'Oh, we've overspent by 200million, we'd better go and spend another 200million on the training ground to cover it'.

It's blatant, but it's not against the rules though, so it doesn't matter at all.

It's like tax avoidance, it's not illegal, so if you could do it, you fucking would.
 
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