Chinese "Devil Virus" - anyone worried?

[peekay]

Austria seemed to act at around the same time with the same measures as Ireland. So I don't know if was quicker or harsher. They have been quicker to ease restrictions.

The border wasn't locked down in Austria really, border checkpoints were temporarily reintroduced but they couldn't have refused entry to an EU citizen or their family. I think most were clever enough not to travel.

The Czech's seem to have ignored the EU on border control , they could be the subject of infringement proceedings but I think the Commission might be clever enough to let that slide. They won't allow a complete ban for a year on anybody entering the country like their PM wants. Their lockdown began four days earlier than Ireland's.

India too has fundamental rights which seems similar to the ones you listed. Whatever you think of the rest of India and its democracy, Kerala is an anomaly. A highly educated society that takes government and rights seriously. So it is not easy for the government to take action which disrupts people's rights, freedoms, etc. But given the context they executed it. Maybe I am biased because I was born there and someone like @dmishra maybe able to provide a more neutral perspective.

I do think Austria, even if they did not completely lockdown borders, did reduce the number of checkpoints and introduce stricter controls and checks. Given Covid-19's symptoms, they may not be effective in identifying all cases into the country but I think that additional checks will discourage a lot of folks from crossing the border.

Most of my family live in Kerala but I have family in the neighboring states of Tamil Nadu and Karnataka. They all want to get back to Kerala as Kerala has been so much more effective in dealing with this disease. The only thing which is discouraging them from travel is the checks and conditions imposed at the state border followed by quarantine requirements.

I don't know if the UK introduced any checks at airports now but my understanding was that there was no checking or quarantining at the airports as recent as March or April? Something to at least psychologically deter people from coming in. Having said that what worked in Kerala, Austria, Czech might not have worked in London just because of the scale. London is multicultural attracting travelers from all over the world in a way very few places are. It is too connected. Maybe the strategy would not have worked there. But I am not sure if the government did even think through some of these issues.

 

[rurikbird]

The UK has done the opposite and is the worst case on the planet.

Hold our Budweiser.

 

[Hyena]

If you can legislate against the human right to sell livestock in a wet market, you can legislate against the human right to spread disease to the rest of the population.

 

[Frogfish]

Interesting. But how come Czech republic, Austria were able to implement harsher lockdown quicker than other European countries?

Define harsher ? Quicker yes but I guess that's a lot easier for a country when they have relatively few international flights/airports in comparison. Land disruption can be circumvented and ignored, if required, for commercial transport.

Having been under 'lock-downs' (to use the vernacular) in two cities in China and also in Vienna, the one in Wenzhou was far more 'severe' (needing passes to leave home, checked by development security and having roads physically blocked) however I don't really see much difference (and our friends in the Czech Rep. didn't seem to indicate theirs was anything draconian) between that in Austria, Shanghai, NZ (family), Czech or even the UK (again family).

 

[Frogfish]

....The border wasn't locked down in Austria really, border checkpoints were temporarily reintroduced but they couldn't have refused entry to an EU citizen or their family. I think most were clever enough not to travel..

My nephew was in Germany at the time the borders closed and although he tried to return home via Switzerland (logistically the easiest route) he was prevented from entering Austria, even though he is Austrian by birth. They eventually let him (2nd attempt) in by him pleading he had nowhere else to live. So it seems to have been case by case.

 

[Rosco]

My nephew was in Germany at the time the borders closed and although he tried to return home via Switzerland (logistically the easiest route) he was prevented from entering Austria, even though he is Austrian by birth. They eventually let him (2nd attempt) in by him pleading he had nowhere else to live. So it seems to have been case by case.

The travel restriction was on travel into the EU rather than within the EU:

"To containt spreading of the virus, on 16 March, the European Commission recommended to Member States to apply an initial 30 days coordinated restriction of non-essential travel from third countries into the EU. Following the endorsement by EU leaders, all EU Member States (except Ireland) and all Schengen Associated Countries (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland) are applying this travel restriction."


In respect of free movement of goods , countries were allowed to screen incoming traffic but only if nobody had to wait more than 15 minutes.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52020XC0324(01)

It's typical of the Commission to say we've given you the power to do X but then put in place restrictions that make it impossible to implement.

 

[Pesam]

As of today, it's a criminal offence to not wear a mask in public spaces here.

I was surprised how quickly the face mask rule was implemented over here and how well observed it was. There's a general feeling that the average cloth mask only reduces the likelihood of spreading corona particles by 25% but also a realisation that 25% fewer corona particles in the air is worth the hassle.

Not only was the policy adhered to strictly, very quickly people started making all sorts of designs and women started colour-coordinating the masks to their clothes. Many of our friends made masks for us (I now have 4) and refused payment.

 

[Pesam]

Define harsher ? Quicker yes but I guess that's a lot easier for a country when they have relatively few international flights/airports in comparison. Land disruption can be circumvented and ignored, if required, for commercial transport.

Having been under 'lock-downs' (to use the vernacular) in two cities in China and also in Vienna, the one in Wenzhou was far more 'severe' (needing passes to leave home, checked by development security and having roads physically blocked) however I don't really see much difference (and our friends in the Czech Rep. didn't seem to indicate theirs was anything draconian) between that in Austria, Shanghai, NZ (family), Czech or even the UK (again family).

The rules of the Czech lockdown weren't draconian; you were allowed out to the shops and for exercise etc (similar to England) but the difference was that the huge majority of Czechs obeyed the lockdown guidelines. This was partly (as mentioned previously) as a result of Czech's being quite obedient (legacy from communist rule) and partly because (unlike Britain) the guidelines were clear, unambiguous and workable.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

They are definitely on their way to "recommending" masks in Ireland. CMO finally mentioned it yesterday. Public transport unions want a rule on passengers wearing them. Lidl are advertising sale of boxes of masks from this week. Companies tend to know things before the rest of us (our company had us testing varying amount of people working from home for two weeks before we were told to stay home).

 

[Pesam]

Interesting. But how come Czech republic, Austria were able to implement harsher lockdown quicker than other European countries?

As Rosco mentions below, the Czech lockdown went against the EU freedom of movement and freedom of trade tenets but came at a stage where the whole world was just beginning to realise what was about to hit The West. I think the Czechs took a risk (as a small country) by being the first to close the borders (thus risking EU sanctions) but at the same time figured that others would have to follow suit.

 

[Frogfish]

The rules of the Czech lockdown weren't draconian; you were allowed out to the shops and for exercise etc (similar to England) but the difference was that the huge majority of Czechs obeyed the lockdown guidelines. This was partly (as mentioned previously) as a result of Czech's being quite obedient (legacy from communist rule) and partly because (unlike Britain) the guidelines were clear, unambiguous and workable.

Yes that 'obediency' is most important, they seem to have a less, shall we say 'rebellious streak' than many in the UK & USA. I believe it's likely that many of the infections in the UK / USA will have been spread both by those partying instead of isolating and by those going mask-free instead of covering up and religiously disinfecting surfaces.

 

[Delinquent]

I don't know if the UK introduced any checks at airports now but my understanding was that there was no checking or quarantining at the airports as recent as March or April? Something to at least psychologically deter people from coming in. Having said that what worked in Kerala, Austria, Czech might not have worked in London just because of the scale. London is multicultural attracting travelers from all over the world in a way very few places are. It is too connected. Maybe the strategy would not have worked there. But I am not sure if the government did even think through some of these issues.

No, they didn't. Or they did and decided it would be too much effort/expense to implement. They are just now, as we pass the peak in cases, thinking it would be a good idea to ask people coming to this country to self-isolate for two weeks. Although there are no plans in place to see that they do, or to control their movements after arriving. It's staggering really.

 

[dantes]

No, they didn't. Or they did and decided it would be too much effort/expense to implement. They are just now, as we pass the peak in cases, thinking it would be a good idea to ask people coming to this country to self-isolate for two weeks. Although there are no plans in place to see that they do, or to control their movements after arriving. It's staggering really.

I believe they were thinking about it, for several days, then weeks, still thinking, a lot to think about you see, then a month passed and just as they were about to come to a decision they realised that the virus was already inside the country being transmitted between all the people already, so it would have little effect shutting down the borders. Oh well. Next time. So then they started thinking about whether to implement a lock down, more days, more weeks, more thinking. We have a government of great thinkers. Some of the greatest thinkers in human history.

 

[Frogfish]

No, they didn't. Or they did and decided it would be too much effort/expense to implement. They are just now, as we pass the peak in cases, thinking it would be a good idea to ask people coming to this country to self-isolate for two weeks. Although there are no plans in place to see that they do, or to control their movements after arriving. It's staggering really.

I've just read that if there is no quarantine at home possible then a hotel will be made available.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Update from the land of arbitrary regulation: We're allowed to buy shoes now, as long as they are not open toe.

Makes sense.

 

[Holle]

The border wasn't locked down in Austria really

What?

I live 100 metres from the Swiss border. It's not only closed, it's barricaded.

 

[Rosco]

What?

I live 100 metres from the Swiss border. It's not only closed, it's barricaded.

Then you probably know that Switzerland is not an EU member state and isn't bound by the Free Movement Directive.

 

[Holle]

Then you probably know that the Swiss-EU bilateral agreement on the free movement of people contains the same rights both for Swiss and EEA nationals and their family members as directive 2004/38/EC on free movement.

 

[Athens]

What?

I live 100 metres from the Swiss border. It's not only closed, it's barricaded.

Do you live in constant fear of an invasion of the Swiss army? I'm sure they could make light work of any barricades with the right tool from their knives.

 

[peekay]

Define harsher ? Quicker yes but I guess that's a lot easier for a country when they have relatively few international flights/airports in comparison. Land disruption can be circumvented and ignored, if required, for commercial transport.

Having been under 'lock-downs' (to use the vernacular) in two cities in China and also in Vienna, the one in Wenzhou was far more 'severe' (needing passes to leave home, checked by development security and having roads physically blocked) however I don't really see much difference (and our friends in the Czech Rep. didn't seem to indicate theirs was anything draconian) between that in Austria, Shanghai, NZ (family), Czech or even the UK (again family).

When I used the word harsher I meant restrictions on movement, quarantine requirements if you enter from outside, as well as clearer guidelines. In Kerala initially, they had uniform restrictions on movement all over. You were allowed to go outside to do groceries, medicines but there were police deployed at all major and semi-major streets and intersections who stop people and constantly ask about the purpose of going outside. Again, just that hassle, discouraged folks from venturing outside.

Depending on the number of cases in each district, later on, they implemented measures on a district by district basis also. Districts with a higher incidence of cases had very strict guidelines. All of this supported by high-level contact tracing.

Again, the key difference being very clear guidelines and strict enforcement.

 

[peekay]

Yes that 'obediency' is most important, they seem to have a less, shall we say 'rebellious streak' than many in the UK & USA. I believe it's likely that many of the infections in the UK / USA will have been spread both by those partying instead of isolating and by those going mask-free instead of covering up and religiously disinfecting surfaces.

Definitely.

 

[dantes]

Rees-Mogg makes a very good point about politicians working from home, whilst advising their electorate to go out to work. The delusional masses obviously berated him with a bunch of classist abuse. The point still stands however.

 

[Farkmaster]

The USA is not a rebellious country by nature. It likes militarized police, the last time there were significant strikes or protests of any real impact, students were shot, and since 1960 the common man in the usa has bent over further and further to get fucked in the ass by corporations. One day under any number of current us working laws and most of Europe would grind to a halt.

It is individualistic, and happy to be ignorant of science, though. so yay!

 

[FoxForceFive]

Rees-Mogg makes a very good point about politicians working from home, whilst advising their electorate to go out to work. The delusional masses obviously berated him with a bunch of classist abuse. The point still stands however.

I find the £10,000 expenses available to MPs to buy home working equipment most galling, as we have just been told, as 'normal' civil servants, we can have £40 for a monitor (plus any other dse stuff, like keyboard, mouse, cables etc), £80 for a chair, & £120 for a desk.

I have no clue where they got those figures from, as it's literally impossible to buy a monitor with a high enough resolution to display the 9 systems I need to put on it for £40, even used, never mind the adapters & cables also needed.

A grand total of £240 per person. Clearly 10k is obscene, but that disparity is utterly ridiculous considering the demands will be very similar, & arguably more so for workers as we need more systems to be shown on screen.

 

[dantes]

I find the £10,000 expenses available to MPs to buy home working equipment most galling, as we have just been told, as 'normal' civil servants, we can have £40 for a monitor (plus any other dse stuff, like keyboard, mouse, cables etc), £80 for a chair, & £120 for a desk.

I have no clue where they got those figures from, as it's literally impossible to buy a monitor with a high enough resolution to display the 9 systems I need to put on it for £40, even used, never mind the adapters & cables also needed.

A grand total of £240 per person. Clearly 10k is obscene, but that disparity is utterly ridiculous considering the demands will be very similar, & arguably more so for workers as we need more systems to be shown on screen.

If you opt for a standing desk like they use in the city, then that saves you £200 for an actual desk and chair, which leaves the full £240 budget. It should be just about enough to get a chinese monitor. Best to put some electrical tape over the webcam though.

 

[Holle]

Do you live in constant fear of an invasion of the Swiss army? I'm sure they could make light work of any barricades with the right tool from their knives.

It also wouldn't take much more equipment to beat the Austrian army.

 

[Richey]

I find the £10,000 expenses available to MPs to buy home working equipment most galling, as we have just been told, as 'normal' civil servants, we can have £40 for a monitor (plus any other dse stuff, like keyboard, mouse, cables etc), £80 for a chair, & £120 for a desk.

I have no clue where they got those figures from, as it's literally impossible to buy a monitor with a high enough resolution to display the 9 systems I need to put on it for £40, even used, never mind the adapters & cables also needed.

A grand total of £240 per person. Clearly 10k is obscene, but that disparity is utterly ridiculous considering the demands will be very similar, & arguably more so for workers as we need more systems to be shown on screen.

you are right, it is too high. I have been offered no money for working at home, but some people in my team have said that they have asked for chairs, which then get delivered. I assume they are ones from the office!

I assume the raised limit (which is what it is, not a 10 grand grant. They only get up to that if they spend it) was decided by IPSA. The govt can't decide things like that. IPSA are no friends to MPs or the government and if I were a conspiratorial sort (I am not) I would wonder if they deliberately made it high!

In any case, we shall eventually see what is claimed and what is not.

One issue though is that this is not just for MPs themselves. They all have staff, usually about 4, sometimes more. A lot of them are office based either in Westminster or the constituency or both, and they don’t tend to get paid that much really. A lot of them are actually unpaid interns, which is a separate issue. This 10 grand is to buy equipment for them too (primarily I would have thought).

I am not sure really why MPs’ offices and staff can’t just be supplied with equipment by parliament without the need for this silly system (the same as with second homes etc) but there we are. They reformed the system and still left it weird.

 

[6TimesaRed]

you are right, it is too high. I have been offered no money for working at home, but some people in my team have said that they have asked for chairs, which then get delivered. I assume they are ones from the office!

I assume the raised limit (which is what it is, not a 10 grand grant. They only get up to that if they spend it) was decided by IPSA. The govt can't decide things like that. IPSA are no friends to MPs or the government and if I were a conspiratorial sort (I am not) I would wonder if they deliberately made it high!

In any case, we shall eventually see what is claimed and what is not.

One issue though is that this is not just for MPs themselves. They all have staff, usually about 4, sometimes more. A lot of them are office based either in Westminster or the constituency or both, and they don’t tend to get paid that much really. A lot of them are actually unpaid interns, which is a separate issue. This 10 grand is to buy equipment for them too (primarily I would have thought).

I am not sure really why MPs’ offices and staff can’t just be supplied with equipment by parliament without the need for this silly system (the same as with second homes etc) but there we are. They reformed the system and still left it weird.

Wont the onus be on the Council to provide additional funds for you to work from home ?

I imagine budget shortcomings will have put paid to that, I am not sure what support from central government your council is getting but many councils have a massive shortfall thanks to this pandemic, many councils government topups don't even touch the sides..

Its all quite sad really in the grand scheme of things..

 

[MomoWASright]

I find the £10,000 expenses available to MPs to buy home working equipment most galling, as we have just been told, as 'normal' civil servants, we can have £40 for a monitor (plus any other dse stuff, like keyboard, mouse, cables etc), £80 for a chair, & £120 for a desk.

I have no clue where they got those figures from, as it's literally impossible to buy a monitor with a high enough resolution to display the 9 systems I need to put on it for £40, even used, never mind the adapters & cables also needed.

A grand total of £240 per person. Clearly 10k is obscene, but that disparity is utterly ridiculous considering the demands will be very similar, & arguably more so for workers as we need more systems to be shown on screen.

I forked our about £500 for all that apart from a desk. I paid it out of my own pocket when I last moved. As I did work from home twice a week I seen it as a benefit for me over time.

Looking at those figures no way I’d get anything bar my mouse and keyboard.

 

[Richey]

Wont the onus be on the Council to provide additional funds for you to work from home ?

I imagine budget shortcomings will have put paid to that, I am not sure what support from central government your council is getting but many councils have a massive shortfall thanks to this pandemic, many councils government topups don't even touch the sides..

Its all quite sad really in the grand scheme of things..

I don't work for a council mate. I work in the heathcare sector.

As I said, my employer is providing equipment where staff need it, but not in the form of money. We were all equipped with basics to work at home anyway.

Local government funding is a different issue, though still a valid one. I am sure councils are providing for staff to work at home.