BYE BYE ROY!!!!!

[the count]

Speculating I know, but I suspect that the people who say that the squad isn't good enough this year to achieve a top four spot would have said that the manager wasn't good enough last year to do the same.
Of course the reverse likely applies as well.

 

[Oncy]

If we didnt believe the squad should be doing better we may as well stick with Roy.

I think the squad is horribly imbalanced and i genuinely think we arent good enough to perform at that top 4 level consistently enough to achieve it. I think Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Spurs and City are all better teams and squads and in the natural order of things this squad should finish top 6, within a handful of points of 4th.

What isnt acceptable is Wigan, Stoke, Birmingham, Blackpool, Northampton, Sunderland and Everton taking the fucking piss out of us. We may not be top TOP class at the moment but we should always be getting points off these types of teams. Rafa failed to consistently do that and now Roy is.
If we lose the games against the big clubs then you could understand it, but not turning up against Stoke and Wigan is a pisstake and should result in dismissal.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=the count link=topic=42120.msg1218892#msg1218892 date=1289849819]
Speculating I know, but I suspect that the people who say that the squad isn't good enough this year to achieve a top four spot would have said that the manager wasn't good enough last year to do the same.
Of course the reverse likely applies as well.
[/quote]


exactly. last season was shit, but 63 points is/was still enough to 'challenge' for a CL spot. you can't have it both ways - if we underachieved last year and benitez deserved the sack then it obviously follows that we're capable of more and should be doing better this year.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42120.msg1218896#msg1218896 date=1289850432]
[quote author=the count link=topic=42120.msg1218892#msg1218892 date=1289849819]
Speculating I know, but I suspect that the people who say that the squad isn't good enough this year to achieve a top four spot would have said that the manager wasn't good enough last year to do the same.
Of course the reverse likely applies as well.
[/quote]


exactly. last season was shit, but 63 points is/was still enough to 'challenge' for a CL spot. you can't have it both ways - if we underachieved last year and benitez deserved the sack then it obviously follows that we're capable of more and should be doing better this year.
[/quote]I agree. Although the loss of 35m worth of CM hasnt helped Roys cause, that said 18m of that is his decision so fuck'im

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42120.msg1218891#msg1218891 date=1289849384]
i'm sure if we went through each of the expected top four squads and compared their squads to ours player by player, we'd be under no illusions over where we belong
[/quote]

Im sure if we went trough the Blackpool, Wigan and Stoke squad,s and compared them to ours we'd be under no illusion that we should have eight points more than we have now.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42120.msg1218896#msg1218896 date=1289850432]
[quote author=the count link=topic=42120.msg1218892#msg1218892 date=1289849819]
Speculating I know, but I suspect that the people who say that the squad isn't good enough this year to achieve a top four spot would have said that the manager wasn't good enough last year to do the same.
Of course the reverse likely applies as well.
[/quote]


exactly. last season was shit, but 63 points is/was still enough to 'challenge' for a CL spot. you can't have it both ways - if we underachieved last year and benitez deserved the sack then it obviously follows that we're capable of more and should be doing better this year.
[/quote]

my point exactly.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42120.msg1218898#msg1218898 date=1289850625]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42120.msg1218896#msg1218896 date=1289850432]
[quote author=the count link=topic=42120.msg1218892#msg1218892 date=1289849819]
Speculating I know, but I suspect that the people who say that the squad isn't good enough this year to achieve a top four spot would have said that the manager wasn't good enough last year to do the same.
Of course the reverse likely applies as well.
[/quote]


exactly. last season was shit, but 63 points is/was still enough to 'challenge' for a CL spot. you can't have it both ways - if we underachieved last year and benitez deserved the sack then it obviously follows that we're capable of more and should be doing better this year.
[/quote]I agree. Although the loss of 35m worth of CM hasnt helped Roys cause, that said 18m of that is his decision so fuck'im
[/quote]


hmmm, i've always been a bit undecided on the aquilani 'question'. i was one of those who felt that he couldn't really play effectively in the PL in the alonso role, but looked very promising in behind a lone striker, where gerrard obviously plays. it's very complicated:

- might the team have been better overall if gerrard had been pushed deeper or out wide to accomodate him?
- could he have been expected to stay fit? people say that his problems were solved - is this the case?
- what was his transfer value in the summer? if we could've got £10m then rather than £13m a year on, might it not have been wiser to have taken the hit rather than have a completely unproductive asset out on loan?
- his assists record since xmas was undeniably impressive. surely he might have recovered just as much of his value over an additional year in england rather than at juventus, with the advantage of LFC reaping the benefit.


it's starting to look like a horrible decision, to be fair. it's just such a fudge: either we should have sold him early in the summer - i don't believe that even then he was worth less than £10m - and brought in a striker, or given him a proper chance to build on the promise of his last few months. i wouldn't mind, but on his current form even the projected £13.5m fee looks undervalued - it's not as if the loan's going to really pay off in that respect anyway.

 

[Avmenon]

I don't think anyone can really defend HOdgson's record; because it passed absymal months ago and is nearing catastrophic.

But some of the posts last season criticising the squad for having let Rafa down look to have some truth to it after all.

Many suggested (myself included) that if a manager couldnt get the best out of his squad then he had to go.

Hodgson is going to go sooner or later; but there might be a real fear that the next manager is going to have the same problems.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1218906#msg1218906 date=1289851678]

I don't think anyone can really defend HOdgson's record; because it passed absymal months ago and is nearing catastrophic.

But some of the posts last season criticising the squad for having let Rafa down look to have some truth to it after all.

Many suggested (myself included) that if a manager couldnt get the best out of his squad then he had to go.

Hodgson is going to go sooner or later; but there might be a real fear that the next manager is going to have the same problems.
[/quote]

there are gaps to be sure;
the left backs aren't good enough
there is no depth with regards to strikers

but I think a hell of a lot of this seasons wasted points was down to tactics.
going two CM to man city three CM away from home.
defending on the edge of our bo regardless of oppersition.

even a slightly better than average manager would have seen us closer to the top.
its november and we have 16 points from 13 games and have a -4 goal difference, that is fucking GASH and a competent manager would have done better. at the very least if we had the same amount of points but I could see what he was 'trying' to do I would have more patience.

 

[Richey]

So that would essentially mean we are unmanagable then?

I don't think that is true. I think its as simple as we did not improve the squad when we should have done, relying on the same old players, who were all the time growing older. We sacked a manager who was starting to take us backwards and to make matters worse replaced him with one who hasn't or can't reverse that.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=42120.msg1218899#msg1218899 date=1289850725]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42120.msg1218891#msg1218891 date=1289849384]
i'm sure if we went through each of the expected top four squads and compared their squads to ours player by player, we'd be under no illusions over where we belong
[/quote]

Im sure if we went trough the Blackpool, Wigan and Stoke squad,s and compared them to ours we'd be under no illusion that we should have eight points more than we have now.
[/quote]

Well obviously. Did i say we should be competing for top 15? No. I said we're not good enough for top 4. That doesn't mean we're immediately relegation fodder.

Is that the only point you have to make?

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1218909#msg1218909 date=1289852113]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1218906#msg1218906 date=1289851678]

I don't think anyone can really defend HOdgson's record; because it passed absymal months ago and is nearing catastrophic.

But some of the posts last season criticising the squad for having let Rafa down look to have some truth to it after all.

Many suggested (myself included) that if a manager couldnt get the best out of his squad then he had to go.

Hodgson is going to go sooner or later; but there might be a real fear that the next manager is going to have the same problems.
[/quote]

there are gaps to be sure;
the left backs aren't good enough
there is no depth with regards to strikers

but I think a hell of a lot of this seasons wasted points was down to tactics.
going two CM to man city three CM away from home.
defending on the edge of our bo regardless of oppersition.

even a slightly better than average manager would have seen us closer to the top.
its november and we have 16 points from 13 games and have a -4 goal difference, that is fucking GASH and a competent manager would have done better. at the very least if we had the same amount of points but I could see what he was 'trying' to do I would have more patience.
[/quote]


even last season, after 13 games we had 20 points and +9 goal difference; we'd be 5th and 2 pts behind city if we had that this year. it's hard to overstate just how bad hodgson's done, but i suppose everyone knows that already.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42120.msg1218914#msg1218914 date=1289852634]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1218909#msg1218909 date=1289852113]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1218906#msg1218906 date=1289851678]

I don't think anyone can really defend HOdgson's record; because it passed ab on the symal months ago and is nearing catastrophic.

But some of the posts last season criticising the squad for having let Rafa down look to have some truth to it after all.

Many suggested (myself included) that if a manager couldnt get the best out of his squad then he had to go.

Hodgson is going to go sooner or later; but there might be a real fear that the next manager is going to have the same problems.
[/quote]

there are gaps to be sure;
the left backs aren't good enough
there is no depth with regards to strikers

but I think a hell of a lot of this seasons wasted points was down to tactics.
going two CM to man city three CM away from home.
defending on the edge of our bo regardless of oppersition.

even a slightly better than average manager would have seen us closer to the top.
its november and we have 16 points from 13 games and have a -4 goal difference, that is fucking GASH and a competent manager would have done better. at the very least if we had the same amount of points but I could see what he was 'trying' to do I would have more patience.
[/quote]


even last season, after 13 games we had 20 points and +9 goal difference; we'd be 5th and 2 pts behind city if we had that this year. it's hard to overstate just how bad hodgson's done, but i suppose everyone knows that already.
[/quote]

when gh arrived you could see he wanted a solid back 4 a quality holding midfielder and then he was going to draw teams onto us and then release owen to hurt teams on the counter attack. ultimately gh's plan was to make us very hard to beat from a team that had attacking talent but a soft center.

when rafa arrived you could see his plan was to defend high up the pitch and when we lose the ball put as much pressure high up up the pitch as possible, hence the signings of momo and then mash.

what are roy's tactics, ultimately what is it roy wants to do? is his long term plan to defend on the edge of our box and attempt to hit teams on the break (with no width or pace). fucking SHITE tactics.

 

[manwithnoname]

So, summing up, the manager that Purssslow et al chose as Benitez's replacement isn't as good. Is in fact, one of the worst Liverpool managers in history?

Well. Allow me to be the first to say 'wow'. Nobody could have foreseen this at all.

 

[Avmenon]

Good spot,Bren.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42120.msg1218929#msg1218929 date=1289853943]
So, summing up, the manager that Purssslow et al chose as Benitez's replacement isn't as good. Is in fact, one of the worst Liverpool managers in history?

Well. Allow me to be the first to say 'wow'. Nobody could have foreseen this at all.
[/quote]

you have to wonder who the board are going to come up with next though. if nesv are going to dismiss the advice of purslow and ayre

henry - 'pfft! you hired roy, like I'm going to listen to what you have to say again'

so do the yanks know enough about 'soccer' to make the decision themselves?

 

[Avmenon]

Purslow's gone though, hasn't he?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1218937#msg1218937 date=1289854508]
Purslow's gone though, hasn't he?
[/quote]

he's there, just not on the board.
they really need to get the next appointment right because we really don't want a revolving door of managers, that would suck.

 

[mark1975]

I really don't know who we go for, tbh, because no one stands out particularly well, but I would like to see someone fresh with ideals of playing good football, which would be a breath of fresh air after a decade leaning heavily towards conservatism. Not the next Kevin Keegan though, obviously, someone who does know how to get teams to defend too. I'd equally hate to see us go the other way, where we can score goals for fun but we're soft as shite at the back (which we almost seem to be at present).

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1218945#msg1218945 date=1289855054]
I really don't know who we go for, tbh, because no one stands out particularly well, but I would like to see someone fresh with ideals of playing good football, which would be a breath of fresh air after a decade leaning heavily towards conservatism. Not the next Kevin Keegan though, obviously, someone who does know how to get teams to defend too. I'd equally hate to see us go the other way, where we can score goals for fun but we're soft as shite at the back (which we almost seem to be at present).


[/quote]

that would be us coming full circle with roy evans' liverpool. all we'll need is cream suits to make the picture complete.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42120.msg1218912#msg1218912 date=1289852497]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=42120.msg1218899#msg1218899 date=1289850725]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42120.msg1218891#msg1218891 date=1289849384]
i'm sure if we went through each of the expected top four squads and compared their squads to ours player by player, we'd be under no illusions over where we belong
[/quote]

Im sure if we went trough the Blackpool, Wigan and Stoke squad,s and compared them to ours we'd be under no illusion that we should have eight points more than we have now.
[/quote]

Well obviously. Did i say we should be competing for top 15? No. I said we're not good enough for top 4. That doesn't mean we're immediately relegation fodder.

Is that the only point you have to make?
[/quote]

I think you may have missed my point. If we had those eight points we would be in the top four. My point is that if you are going by squad strength , as you suggested, then we should be up there at thim moment in time.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=42120.msg1218954#msg1218954 date=1289855566]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42120.msg1218912#msg1218912 date=1289852497]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=42120.msg1218899#msg1218899 date=1289850725]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42120.msg1218891#msg1218891 date=1289849384]
i'm sure if we went through each of the expected top four squads and compared their squads to ours player by player, we'd be under no illusions over where we belong
[/quote]

Im sure if we went trough the Blackpool, Wigan and Stoke squad,s and compared them to ours we'd be under no illusion that we should have eight points more than we have now.
[/quote]

Well obviously. Did i say we should be competing for top 15? No. I said we're not good enough for top 4. That doesn't mean we're immediately relegation fodder.

Is that the only point you have to make?
[/quote]

I think you may have missed my point. If we had those eight points we would be in the top four. My point is that if you are going by squad strength , as you suggested, then we should be up there at thim moment in time.
[/quote]

I'm talking over the course of a season. If we start isolating individual results that we should have won by comparing our squads to weaker opposition, then we should do the same for the others. City should have trounced birmingham last weekend, spurs have dropped points against bolton, a team on paper they should beat. This of course all on paper, so the point is relatively moot.

So comparing squads on paper points us to us not being good enough for top 4, and performances on the pitch point to us not being good enough for top 4. So how we can point to our squad being good enough is slightly farcical. We're nowhere near as good as 2 years ago, and significantly weaker than last season

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=the count link=topic=42120.msg1218892#msg1218892 date=1289849819]
Speculating I know, but I suspect that the people who say that the squad isn't good enough this year to achieve a top four spot would have said that the manager wasn't good enough last year to do the same.
Of course the reverse likely applies as well.
[/quote]

When everyone was bigging us up last year I said we would struggle for fourth for same for the same reason as this year, the squad is just not good enough, not good enough because we are over reliant on Torres, who is far from reliable, not good enough as there is Zero option to Torres, not good enough because there are too many average to poor players getting games regularly, not good enough as the squad is far far too thin, not good enough magnified this year as we have lost a world class midfielder and replaced him with Poulsen ......need I go on?

This is not about the managers, the best manager in the world can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Have you seen the squads of the teams that will be competing for fourth?

Seriously some of you need to stand back from this ludicrous stance that suggests the squad is better than it is , and that the reason what we are shit is all down to Roy - it's really not, he has not helped, the other teams may be erratic, but we are miles off the quality we need to get 4th.
This thread is like something off fucking RAWK .

regards

 

[KopPoNok]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=42120.msg1219008#msg1219008 date=1289863399]
When everyone was bigging us up last year I said we would struggle for fourth for same for the same reason as this year, the squad is just not good enough, not good enough because we are over reliant on Torres, who is far from reliable, not good enough as there is Zero option to Torres, not good enough because there are too many average to poor players getting games regularly, not good enough as the squad is far far too thin, not good enough magnified this year as we have lost a world class midfielder and replaced him with Poulsen ......need I go on?

This is not about the managers, the best manager in the world can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Have you seen the squads of the teams that will be competing for fourth?

Seriously some of you need to stand back from this ludicrous stance that suggests the squad is better than it is , and that the reason what we are shit is all down to Roy - it's really not, he has not helped, the other teams may be erratic, but we are miles off the quality we need to get 4th.
This thread is like something off fucking RAWK .

regards
[/quote]

Well, I think most of us can see the point you tried to make, except the manager. If he's not responsible, then who is?

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=42120.msg1218678#msg1218678 date=1289824780]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42120.msg1218664#msg1218664 date=1289824138]
While I do agree that it goes too far sometimes, he has been very very poor
[/quote]

I think everybody has been over-rating our squad, and under-rating opposition teams. Stoke City have a pretty good home record. Every Premier League game is tough - Sunderland beat Chelsea 3-0 at Stamford Bridge ffs. Hodgson is expected to brush the likes of Stoke aside without Mascherano in the side. We miss him badly.

I don't honestly believe that Kenny Dalglish or any other replacement manager would be able to provide instant success. It's going to take some time to turn things round.
[/quote]

Spot on.

Some of the abuse Roy has gotten on here has been sickening. And I shudder to think of what The King may face if he does take over...

 

[KopPoNok]

I doubt Kenny will make that kinda clueless remarks like old roy did though, to be honest.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=42120.msg1218871#msg1218871 date=1289846826]
I agree with neil. For all our problems, the top teams seem to be falling over themselves NOT to open up a gap at the top of the league. We could indeed have challenged for a top four place if we hadn't been so ineptly managed.
[/quote]

The flaw in this logic is that you expect them to maintain their erratic form through the season while hoping that we are capable of putting together a run to vault them. They are more likely to put together a run of form than we are. We have more than 1 and a half a years worth of evidence backing it up. Looking at our squad, i shudder to think what might happen if Gerrard picks up a knock.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=42120.msg1219020#msg1219020 date=1289870007]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=42120.msg1219008#msg1219008 date=1289863399]
When everyone was bigging us up last year I said we would struggle for fourth for same for the same reason as this year, the squad is just not good enough, not good enough because we are over reliant on Torres, who is far from reliable, not good enough as there is Zero option to Torres, not good enough because there are too many average to poor players getting games regularly, not good enough as the squad is far far too thin, not good enough magnified this year as we have lost a world class midfielder and replaced him with Poulsen ......need I go on?

This is not about the managers, the best manager in the world can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Have you seen the squads of the teams that will be competing for fourth?

Seriously some of you need to stand back from this ludicrous stance that suggests the squad is better than it is , and that the reason what we are shit is all down to Roy - it's really not, he has not helped, the other teams may be erratic, but we are miles off the quality we need to get 4th.
This thread is like something off fucking RAWK .

regards
[/quote]

Well, I think most of us can see the point you tried to make, except the manager. If he's not responsible, then who is?
[/quote]

If you agree with Vlad, the strength of the squad is the work of his predecessor, surely? 'Cept for losing Aquaman, naturally...

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42120.msg1219024#msg1219024 date=1289871505]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=42120.msg1218871#msg1218871 date=1289846826]
I agree with neil. For all our problems, the top teams seem to be falling over themselves NOT to open up a gap at the top of the league. We could indeed have challenged for a top four place if we hadn't been so ineptly managed.
[/quote]

The flaw in this logic is that you expect them to maintain their erratic form through the season while hoping that we are capable of putting together a run to vault them. They are more likely to put together a run of form than we are. We have more than 1 and a half a years worth of evidence backing it up. Looking at our squad, i shudder to think what might happen if Gerrard picks up a knock.
[/quote]

As do I, but while SG IS there, we should be taking points off Blackpool, Stoke and Wigan.

 

[KopPoNok]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219025#msg1219025 date=1289871564]
[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=42120.msg1219020#msg1219020 date=1289870007]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=42120.msg1219008#msg1219008 date=1289863399]
When everyone was bigging us up last year I said we would struggle for fourth for same for the same reason as this year, the squad is just not good enough, not good enough because we are over reliant on Torres, who is far from reliable, not good enough as there is Zero option to Torres, not good enough because there are too many average to poor players getting games regularly, not good enough as the squad is far far too thin, not good enough magnified this year as we have lost a world class midfielder and replaced him with Poulsen ......need I go on?

This is not about the managers, the best manager in the world can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Have you seen the squads of the teams that will be competing for fourth?

Seriously some of you need to stand back from this ludicrous stance that suggests the squad is better than it is , and that the reason what we are shit is all down to Roy - it's really not, he has not helped, the other teams may be erratic, but we are miles off the quality we need to get 4th.
This thread is like something off fucking RAWK .

regards
[/quote]

Well, I think most of us can see the point you tried to make, except the manager. If he's not responsible, then who is?
[/quote]

If you agree with Vlad, the strength of the squad is the work of his predecessor, surely? 'Cept for losing Aquaman, naturally...
[/quote]

If the strength of the squad is the work of his predecessor, he should have rectify some of it before the transfer window closed. But instead of rectifying it, he made the matter worse. If he's not responsible for it, then I don't know who is.