BYE BYE ROY!!!!!

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209347#msg1209347 date=1288608168]
All this hindsight regarding Rafa is rich really. He wasn't sacked because of one shit season, he went because of numerous failings over his whole tenure, finishing 7th and his mistakes during that season just really compounded the theory that we weren't getting any closer to the title with him in charge.

Hodgson might not be good enough, but that's a completely separate issue. Rafa went because we were haemorrhaging money on shit players and still enduring the same issues on the pitch that we had in his first season. Yes he was a success, particularly in Europe, but he was brought in to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and in 5 seasons we only got close once and when we did get ourselves in a position of strength we failed to capitalise due to poor decision making all round, on the pitch, in the transfer market, in the press, etc.
[/quote]

season 1 - CL/5th
season 2 - FAC/3rd
season 3 - 3rd
season 4 - 4th
season 5 - 2nd
season 6 - 7th

that is is rafa's record in black and white. if rafa wasn't sacked for one bad season then why the fuck was he sacked?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42120.msg1209359#msg1209359 date=1288608880]

No one said it was right or wrong, but saying there were no justifiable reasons for getting rid is also wrong.

Absolutely. It's all very well to say that it was Benitez's only really terrible season, but there were times that he seemed to have lost the plot altogether, and it would have been perfectly reasonable to assume that he wouldn't have done any better this year.

Essentially, the unproveable argument is whether or not last season was a "blip".
[/quote]

exactly, and rafa had EARNED the right for another season to prove it one way or the other.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209377#msg1209377 date=1288610199]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42120.msg1209359#msg1209359 date=1288608880]

No one said it was right or wrong, but saying there were no justifiable reasons for getting rid is also wrong.

Absolutely. It's all very well to say that it was Benitez's only really terrible season, but there were times that he seemed to have lost the plot altogether, and it would have been perfectly reasonable to assume that he wouldn't have done any better this year.

Essentially, the unproveable argument is whether or not last season was a "blip".
[/quote]

exactly, and rafa had EARNED the right for another season to prove it one way or the other.
[/quote]

Hmmmm. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209374#msg1209374 date=1288610044]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209347#msg1209347 date=1288608168]
All this hindsight regarding Rafa is rich really. He wasn't sacked because of one shit season, he went because of numerous failings over his whole tenure, finishing 7th and his mistakes during that season just really compounded the theory that we weren't getting any closer to the title with him in charge.

Hodgson might not be good enough, but that's a completely separate issue. Rafa went because we were haemorrhaging money on shit players and still enduring the same issues on the pitch that we had in his first season. Yes he was a success, particularly in Europe, but he was brought in to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and in 5 seasons we only got close once and when we did get ourselves in a position of strength we failed to capitalise due to poor decision making all round, on the pitch, in the transfer market, in the press, etc.
[/quote]

season 1 - CL/5th
season 2 - FAC/3rd
season 3 - 3rd/CL Runners up
season 4 - 4th
season 5 - 2nd
season 6 - 7th

that is is rafa's record in black and white. if rafa wasn't sacked for one bad season then why the fuck was he sacked?
[/quote]

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209374#msg1209374 date=1288610044]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209347#msg1209347 date=1288608168]
All this hindsight regarding Rafa is rich really. He wasn't sacked because of one shit season, he went because of numerous failings over his whole tenure, finishing 7th and his mistakes during that season just really compounded the theory that we weren't getting any closer to the title with him in charge.

Hodgson might not be good enough, but that's a completely separate issue. Rafa went because we were haemorrhaging money on shit players and still enduring the same issues on the pitch that we had in his first season. Yes he was a success, particularly in Europe, but he was brought in to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and in 5 seasons we only got close once and when we did get ourselves in a position of strength we failed to capitalise due to poor decision making all round, on the pitch, in the transfer market, in the press, etc.
[/quote]

season 1 - CL/5th
season 2 - FAC/3rd
season 3 - 3rd
season 4 - 4th
season 5 - 2nd
season 6 - 7th

that is is rafa's record in black and white. if rafa wasn't sacked for one bad season then why the fuck was he sacked?
[/quote]

He answered your question in the post your responded to!

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209374#msg1209374 date=1288610044]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209347#msg1209347 date=1288608168]
All this hindsight regarding Rafa is rich really. He wasn't sacked because of one shit season, he went because of numerous failings over his whole tenure, finishing 7th and his mistakes during that season just really compounded the theory that we weren't getting any closer to the title with him in charge.

Hodgson might not be good enough, but that's a completely separate issue. Rafa went because we were haemorrhaging money on shit players and still enduring the same issues on the pitch that we had in his first season. Yes he was a success, particularly in Europe, but he was brought in to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and in 5 seasons we only got close once and when we did get ourselves in a position of strength we failed to capitalise due to poor decision making all round, on the pitch, in the transfer market, in the press, etc.
[/quote]

season 1 - CL/5th
season 2 - FAC/3rd
season 3 - 3rd
season 4 - 4th
season 5 - 2nd
season 6 - 7th

that is is rafa's record in black and white. if rafa wasn't sacked for one bad season then why the fuck was he sacked?
[/quote]

So you think everything was perfect in the other 5 seasons and there were no reasons to have doubts? Didn't you spend most of his time in charge moaning about how conservative his teams were and how poor we were in the fullback positions and how we were playing with a defence that was full of defenders and lacking 'footballers'??

The only reason you seem to have jumped to Rafa's defence of late is because of your obvious hatred of Hodgson, shown by your repetitive willingness to rip him apart at every opportunity and dissect EVERY comment he makes.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209328#msg1209328 date=1288606706]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=42120.msg1209286#msg1209286 date=1288603829]
Count old chap, I wish we could leave comparisons out of all the Roy debates, but it seems impossible, they seem inextricably linked.
I wanted Rafa gone , he had run his course and lost the plot, I can only put it down to the infighting with the owners and board, his own stubbornness, the position he had manipulated himself into as regards having the say over transfers etc and some real lack of judgement. Although there were some very admirable parts to him
He had six years, Hodgson is in his fourth month.
Now I was one of the people who welcomed the Hodgson era as a safe pair of hands and someone who had a much better idea of handling players. So yes, guilty of all charges from the anti-budgie brigade.
He has not got off to a great start, OK, he has got off to a shit start, some of which is of his own making, in, like his predecessor I hasten to add, by being too cautious, and team selection.
There are big question marks over at least one of his purchases , Pouslen, who was really a safety net given we needed someone to take over from Mascher in case he went, but at the same time, could had to be the right price in case we persuaded Mascher to stay.
Konchesky, well my jury, at least, is still out on him, it's too early given his injury interrupted start, I think he will be what he is, an average £5m left back.
One thing fo sho is he is a better average £5m left back than Dossena was.
Miereles on the other hand in these early days looks an excellent buy
As I say Roy has not helped himself, he was been unlucky with the start the fixture list threw up at him, and he has also not helped that two of our key players have completely failed to show up as yet, Torres and Cole.
I don't want to get into discussions on what the strength of the squad was that Rafa left , good or bad, but would say Roy clearly knows one of the biggest shortcomings where he did have his hands tied with the financials was the lack of quality support for Torres.
The other issue I thought might be one of Roy's strengths was his handling of the press, up to now it hasn't , it has been very poor and I can only put that down to frustration, anxiety and continually being on the back foot. I also accept his body language on the sidelines gives the wrong image, with all that head in the hands stuff.
I said some weeks ago , despite all this he would have until at least the turn of the year as far as I was concerned , and that still stands.
If he does not make it that far, If that aggravates some people that's tough, and NESV decide time is up and pull a rabbit out of the hat, I won't lose any sleep either.

regards


[/quote]

no offence vlad but finishing 7th is not losing the plot.
for every single arguement someone can bring up for wanting rafa out I can counter it by why he should have been retained, if for no other reason than seeing if the season was a blip or a trend.
[/quote]

No offence taken, I agree finishing 7th is not losing the plot

regards

 

[Rosco]

If people think Rafa was sacked just because we finished seventh, they can't have been paying much attention to what went on for the past three years.

 

[mark1975]

I think there are fans that wanted him to stay and fans that wanted rid, but I think the majority were in the camp of being not too fussed either way in the Summer. We'd had a poor season, some of our play was dreadful and our activity in the transfer market over the two Summers was terrible, but he had done well in the previous season and we'd gotten close, soured only by the fact that had he got things right with transfers and his stubborness over Robbie Keane, we might have done enough to win the title.

The capacity to succeed was always there with Rafa, but the ability to fuck it up and be his own worst enemy was also more than obvious, as was his occasional inability to see the blindingly obvious.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209387#msg1209387 date=1288610795]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209374#msg1209374 date=1288610044]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209347#msg1209347 date=1288608168]
All this hindsight regarding Rafa is rich really. He wasn't sacked because of one shit season, he went because of numerous failings over his whole tenure, finishing 7th and his mistakes during that season just really compounded the theory that we weren't getting any closer to the title with him in charge.

Hodgson might not be good enough, but that's a completely separate issue. Rafa went because we were haemorrhaging money on shit players and still enduring the same issues on the pitch that we had in his first season. Yes he was a success, particularly in Europe, but he was brought in to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and in 5 seasons we only got close once and when we did get ourselves in a position of strength we failed to capitalise due to poor decision making all round, on the pitch, in the transfer market, in the press, etc.
[/quote]

season 1 - CL/5th
season 2 - FAC/3rd
season 3 - 3rd
season 4 - 4th
season 5 - 2nd
season 6 - 7th

that is is rafa's record in black and white. if rafa wasn't sacked for one bad season then why the fuck was he sacked?
[/quote]

So you think everything was perfect in the other 5 seasons and there were no reasons to have doubts? Didn't you spend most of his time in charge moaning about how conservative his teams were and how poor we were in the fullback positions and how we were playing with a defence that was full of defenders and lacking 'footballers'??

The only reason you seem to have jumped to Rafa's defence of late is because of your obvious hatred of Hodgson, shown by your repetitive willingness to rip him apart at every opportunity and dissect EVERY comment he makes.
[/quote]

obviously I don't think things were perfect but over the course of 6 seasons rafa had proved;

a) he could out think the very best in europe and on occassion in the league as well.
b) he could have a sustained league challenge
c) he was building for the future with outstanding talent in the reserves

in the latter season rafa was hampered with what was happening off the pitch. contrast the signing of his first 3 seasons to his last 3 seasons under the yanks.
the man was a great thinker and great tactician he has made us in to THE most feared team in europe and had also won silverware. he came 7th after 3 transfer windows of transfer, admittedly he made 3 poor expensive signings. yes rafa made mistakes but he had EARNED the right to fix those mistakes and he was fucked off.

fucking bullSHIT

 

[Rosco]

He played Crouch on the left wing.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42120.msg1209391#msg1209391 date=1288611140]
If people think Rafa was sacked just because we finished seventh, they can't have been paying much attention to what went on for the past three years.[/quote]

two seasons ago liverpool were runners up.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42120.msg1209396#msg1209396 date=1288611408]
He played Crouch on the left wing.
[/quote]

so fucking what, that is ONE game.

 

[mark1975]

Neil, he did well in Europe but what was his record overall against he big sides? For the first couple of seasons we were shite in the league against the big three.

He could have a sustained title challenge? What? Once in 6 years?

He was building for the future with outstanding talent? Where? Daniel Pacheco? The best young lad we've probably brought in is Shelvey and that was because of Dalglish and after Rafa had spunked millions on about half a dozen reserve teams.

 

[keniget]

Do we really need to go through the same boring argument every single day?

 

[Rosco]

I've said it before, but getting a reputation as a tactical genius is a lot like getting one as a paedophile. Once it sticks it doesn't really matter what you do afterwards you won't change a thing.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209398#msg1209398 date=1288611455]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42120.msg1209396#msg1209396 date=1288611408]
He played Crouch on the left wing.
[/quote]

so fucking what, that is ONE game.
[/quote]

It wasn't though was it? How many shit decisions were there like that one? Robbie Fowler and Peter Crouch away at Everton? Crouch and Bellamy sat in the stands against Milan?

 

[Avmenon]

Alright,Neil.

Outside.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209400#msg1209400 date=1288611566]
Neil, he did well in Europe but what was his record overall against he big sides? For the first couple of seasons we were shite in the league against the big three.

He could have a sustained title challenge? What? Once in 6 years?

He was building for the future with outstanding talent? Where? Daniel Pacheco? The best young lad we've probably brought in is Shelvey and that was because of Dalglish and after Rafa had spunked millions on about half a dozen reserve teams.
[/quote]

yes once in 6 years but that was 2 seasons ago.
as for the reserves, take it from someone who actually watches the reserves liverpool have the best kids they've had in a decade.

I have no freaking idea what goes on behind the scenes, whether or not rafa had 'lost the dressing room' or any of that all I know is what I see on the pitch and results I see in black and white and for me the bottom line is rafa has one 'relatively' poor season and was sacked on the back of that poor season, when gh was granted another season despite not acheiving as much as rafa in his time at the club.

 

[Squiggles]

Point C is absolute bollocks, Neil.

Building for the future for Rafa meant signing a shit load of kids for a fair chunk of money, and then buying shit old freebie players to fill their potential spot in the first team.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=42120.msg1209401#msg1209401 date=1288611584]
Do we really need to go through the same boring argument every single day?
[/quote]

I'll stop when they stop.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209393#msg1209393 date=1288611334]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209387#msg1209387 date=1288610795]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209374#msg1209374 date=1288610044]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42120.msg1209347#msg1209347 date=1288608168]
All this hindsight regarding Rafa is rich really. He wasn't sacked because of one shit season, he went because of numerous failings over his whole tenure, finishing 7th and his mistakes during that season just really compounded the theory that we weren't getting any closer to the title with him in charge.

Hodgson might not be good enough, but that's a completely separate issue. Rafa went because we were haemorrhaging money on shit players and still enduring the same issues on the pitch that we had in his first season. Yes he was a success, particularly in Europe, but he was brought in to challenge for the title on a consistent basis and in 5 seasons we only got close once and when we did get ourselves in a position of strength we failed to capitalise due to poor decision making all round, on the pitch, in the transfer market, in the press, etc.
[/quote]

season 1 - CL/5th
season 2 - FAC/3rd
season 3 - 3rd
season 4 - 4th
season 5 - 2nd
season 6 - 7th

that is is rafa's record in black and white. if rafa wasn't sacked for one bad season then why the fuck was he sacked?
[/quote]

So you think everything was perfect in the other 5 seasons and there were no reasons to have doubts? Didn't you spend most of his time in charge moaning about how conservative his teams were and how poor we were in the fullback positions and how we were playing with a defence that was full of defenders and lacking 'footballers'??

The only reason you seem to have jumped to Rafa's defence of late is because of your obvious hatred of Hodgson, shown by your repetitive willingness to rip him apart at every opportunity and dissect EVERY comment he makes.
[/quote]

obviously I don't think things were perfect but over the course of 6 seasons rafa had proved;

a) he could out think the very best in europe and on occassion in the league as well.
b) he could have a sustained league challenge
c) he was building for the future with outstanding talent in the reserves

in the latter season rafa was hampered with what was happening off the pitch. contrast the signing of his first 3 seasons to his last 3 seasons under the yanks.
the man was a great thinker and great tactician he has made us in to THE most feared team in europe and had also won silverware. he came 7th after 3 transfer windows of transfer, admittedly he made 3 poor expensive signings. yes rafa made mistakes but he had EARNED the right to fix those mistakes and he was fucked off.

fucking bullSHIT
[/quote]

There were periods we we a frightening team. Somehow we just lost the foot of the pedal (maybe it only slipped, who really knows) and Rafa became moreand more frustrated in his own job. He didnt get the cash he allways talked about. He was obsessed with the new players, instead of bringing the best out of what he had.

To me it seemed sensible for both parties to have a break. A frustrated manager often more annoyed by the owners than occupied with his team only signalled a downward spiral and not a upward. That doesnt mean Rafa is a bad man given the right circumstances. BMaybe he can come back one day even better manager? Who knows.

But what I know is that we did not have exceptional talents in the reserves. We had one or two real potentials, but we in many ways the reserve team mirrored the first team.

 

[refugee]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=42120.msg1209401#msg1209401 date=1288611584]
Do we really need to go through the same boring argument every single day?
[/quote]

*2

 

[spider-Neil]

the playing people out of position is the same as the zonal marking arguement. stop looking at one game and look at the course of the entire season. over a SEASON will we conceed less goals, over a SEASON with using people out of position gleen us more points. for the record kuyt is being played 'out of position'

 

[Woland]

Naming Poulsen in the squad is playing him out of position

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209423#msg1209423 date=1288612432]
the playing people out of position is the same as the zonal marking arguement. stop looking at one game and look at the course of the entire season. over a SEASON will we conceed less goals, over a SEASON with using people out of position gleen us more points. for the record kuyt is being played 'out of position'
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=42522.0

Stop turning it into a Rafa thread.

I've made one for you, so knock yourself out.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209423#msg1209423 date=1288612432]
the playing people out of position is the same as the zonal marking arguement. stop looking at one game and look at the course of the entire season. over a SEASON will we conceed less goals, over a SEASON with using people out of position gleen us more points. for the record kuyt is being played 'out of position'
[/quote]

Kuyt has been more effective on the right than he has in the middle and he'd played on the flanks for Holland anyway. He was brought in as a striker and was then deemed not good enough to play there and was shoved outwide where he's found his niche for us.

How many players did we bring in and just not know where or how to play them? Keane, Aquilani, Dossena, Yossi, Degan, Lucas, Gonzalez, Johnson. Did he do his homework on ANY of them?

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Odd that Rafa plays Kuyt "out of position", as does Hodgson, as does whoever the Holland coach is.

Still, I'm sure we know better.

 

[Avmenon]

What's odd is that anyone thinks Rafa bought the top scorer in Holland and intended to play him as a winger.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1209425#msg1209425 date=1288612561]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1209423#msg1209423 date=1288612432]
the playing people out of position is the same as the zonal marking arguement. stop looking at one game and look at the course of the entire season. over a SEASON will we conceed less goals, over a SEASON with using people out of position gleen us more points. for the record kuyt is being played 'out of position'
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=42522.0

Stop turning it into a Rafa thread.

I've made one for you, so knock yourself out.
[/quote]

stop blaming me for hijacking threads, if people are going to bring up rafa and take a dig then I'm going to attempt to defend him (rafa).