Biggest fuck up this summer

[ibromurph]

I think part of the problem, as ibro said in the other thread, is that in most games it's always down to fine margins. We're doing most things right and generally our issues stem from a failure to convert chances. It must be pretty maddening for the coaches and making it quite difficult for them to abandon a strategy that takes us 90% of the way.

Last year we won these same games because we often scored the first goal. Either through a set piece, a bit of luck or a bit of magic.

We also had the crowd whose sheer will helped us score goals.

We also had that teams have fear us with that 'inevitable last minute goal' looming over their heads.

Right now we don't have any of these factors in our favour.

No crowd. No Anfield fear factor.
No 'free' set piece goals.
Barely any assists from our FBs.

Football is a bit shit. But I'm not one to get too high when we're winning, or too low when we are not.

We're not that far way, in my opinion.

Get VVD and Hendo back in this team, Fab in the midfield. And we're certainly beating Brighton, Southampton, Leicester, Everton and Burnley. Chelsea and Citeh are games we can lose in any season, full team and all.

However, until then, we should probably expect more shit results. Our midfield is looking terribly lightweight and out of balance.

I think the lack of assists from the FB show this. And the amount of times we've been penetrated or counter attacked through the middle of the pitch.

Doesn't help that both Mane and Bobby are off form too.

Klopp has also got his tactics wrong. His decision to weaken the midfield to improve the defence has not paid off. We probably would have had more points if he kept Fab and Hendo in the midfield, and just played Williams/Phillips/Kabak/Davies at the back. I see complete logic to his decision making, so this is very revisionary, but the results show it simply hasn't worked, unfortunately.

Jota is the one ray of hope we have.

 

[StevieM]

Not sacrificing Dreamie at the start of the season.

It has cost us dearly.

 

[Halmeister]

It's never too late to do that...

 

[Whaddapie]

Not replacing Lovren was an error, yes. On a team with at least two dependable CBs, it would have ben a calculated risk, but on our team, with our 2nd and 3rd choice CBs both injury prone, it was an error. What happened to Virgil could not have been foreseen, what happened to Joe and Joel could - and should.

But that's where last summer's mistakes end. Thiago was brought in to add to a full strength team, with Fabs and Hendo anchoring our MF, allowing him to do his thing, and unlock parked busses. And Jota mad a sensational start to his career with us, until the injury.

Hindsight is always 20/20. But some of your utter refusal to accept that NO amount of planning could have foreseen - or prepared us for - the deluge of injuries and poor officiating and personal tragedies, etc... that this side has faced this past six months baffles me.

This has not been a normal season. No side in the world could deal with what we've been dealing with, and not be as negatively effected as we've been. Pull the four best CBs out of City's team, and how do they do..? Pull the two most important midfielders out of Salford's line up for 90% of the season, do you really think they're 2nd? When anybody's 6th or 7th sub becomes their 1st or 2nd sub, or even a starter, for a long period of time, of course things will slide.

You can't look back at last summer and say that anything we did or didn't do - except not replacing Lovren - was a mistake, just because of the shit storm that the footie gods have unleashed upon us this season.

 

[ibromurph]

Not replacing Lovren was an error, yes. On a team with at least two dependable CBs, it would have ben a calculated risk, but on our team, with our 2nd and 3rd choice CBs both injury prone, it was an error. What happened to Virgil could not have been foreseen, what happened to Joe and Joel could - and should.

But that's where last summer's mistakes end. Thiago was brought in to add to a full strength team, with Fabs and Hendo anchoring our MF, allowing him to do his thing, and unlock parked busses. And Jota mad a sensational start to his career with us, until the injury.

Hindsight is always 20/20. But some of your utter refusal to accept that NO amount of planning could have foreseen - or prepared us for - the deluge of injuries and poor officiating and personal tragedies, etc... that this side has faced this past six months baffles me.

This has not been a normal season. No side in the world could deal with what we've been dealing with, and not be as negatively effected as we've been. Pull the four best CBs out of City's team, and how do they do..? Pull the two most important midfielders out of Salford's line up for 90% of the season, do you really think they're 2nd? When anybody's 6th or 7th sub becomes their 1st or 2nd sub, or even a starter, for a long period of time, of course things will slide.

You can't look back at last summer and say that anything we did or didn't do - except not replacing Lovren - was a mistake, just because of the shit storm that the footie gods have unleashed upon us this season.

I agree with most of that, but even still, we shouldn't be where we are. Getting only 2pts to Burnley, Brighton, Southampton, WBA, Newcastle is appalling whatever way you want to slice it.

I'd expect Klopp to put a team and strategy together to win at least 1, if not 2, of those 5 games.

 

[Whaddapie]

I agree with most of that, but even still, we shouldn't be where we are. Getting only 2pts to Burnley, Brighton, Southampton, WBA, Newcastle is appalling whatever way you want to slice it.

I'd expect Klopp to put a team and strategy together to win at least 1, if not 2, of those 5 games.

See, where we differ is that I think that he did, we just didn't score... We're making the chances to win most of these games, but our forwards have forgotten how to score. We should have won the West Brom and Newcastle matches at least, and gotten draws out of most all of the rest. Even last week, that cunt Pickford was MOTM and last night we should have at least one goal (Sadio) and a penalty, and gotten a 2-2 draw (their first goal should have stood).

Somebody made the point earlier that they understand why we continue to use these tactics... We're making chances, we're just not scoring. And I agree. This run is far more about key players being out of sorts, than JK suddenly forgetting how to mange.

 

[ibromurph]

See, where we differ is that I think that he did, we just didn't score... We're making the chances to win most of these games, but our forwards have forgotten how to score. We should have won the West Brom and Newcastle matches at least, and gotten draws out of most all of the rest. Even last week, that cunt Pickford was MOTM and last night we should have at least one goal (Sadio) and a penalty, and gotten a 2-2 draw (their first goal should have stood).

Somebody made the point earlier that they understand why we continue to use these tactics... We're making chances, we're just not scoring. And I agree. This run is far more about key players being out of sorts, than JK suddenly forgetting how to mange.

I agree about the Newcastle game. We had more than enough chances there. West Brom? I don't remember one decent chance in that 2nd half, but heh, we kind of got mugged sleepwalking in that game.

I personally don't think we're creating enough high quality chances. We should be creating at least having 3-4 a game against those bottom teams. At Newcastle, we did. All the others, only 1 or 2. And the few decent ones that we are creating are falling to an out of form Firmino who isn't a good finisher in the best of times anyway.

Personally, I'd have liked to have seen Jurgen just try something else up top Like a 4-2-3-1; move Thiago in the 10.. or stick with the 4-3-3 and bring Shaq in on the right, Salah in the centre. I've just been surprised at how long it's taken to try something different. And when he did make a change last night, it was to take off our best player on the night and top goalscorer, which was a head-scratching change. Almost like he was bereft of ideas.

Anyways, in Jurgen we trust, and I really hope the board back him to make the required changes in the summer. It's clear we need another option at RB, CB, DM/CM and CF. That's before even considering whether the likes of Tsimikas, Adrian or Minamino need replacing too.

 

[tomasjj]

We should have kept both Minamino and Clyne. A RB who can defend and give TAA some rest.

 

[Stevesquash]

We are playing absolutely shite now. We outplayed Shef u but apart from that we're very weak and vulnerable. It's not about small margins anymore.

We were miles off Chelsea and not fir the first time this year, by the end, we could have played all week and not scored.
The team is so mentally weak currently, you can see the difference when we concede. They panic.

We'll have all the same players (hopefully) back at some point, but the complete capitulation of this team is very concerning.

I don't remember a more steep descent so quickly in any sport. We hadn't lost at home for what 3 years, now we've lost 5 (five) in a row. Quite incredible.

At the end of the day, we have built a fantastic team out of fantastic characters, which was one of our strengths, and Klopp is a genius. So I believe we'll come good again with the same group. It's hard to visualise that path currently though.

 

[King Binny]

RE Suarez, just came across this. Guess there's every chance he will suffer with our team's performances.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...Benzema-Luis-Suarez-crucial-Madrid-derby.html
[article]Atletico Madrid and Real Madrid are just hoping Luis Suarez can get back in the goals and Karim Benzema can get back on the pitch in time for the title showdown.

The Uruguayan has scored 11 goals in 17 games against Real Madrid but he has not scored in his last five matches. It is a barren spell, which has coincided with the team's dip in form.[/article]

 

[peekay]

Ibrahimvoic was still considered a top quality - and still is at 39 (see the difference with Milan since he returned?).
I will respond trying to remove how Suarez could have helped us because of the current issues (players who can drive the team forward when they lack confidence/idea, few fighters on the pitch & few goalscorers) - i.e. hindsight is ...

1) Did I say "Suarez was the answer"? Suarez would have been an excellent 2-3 year option.
2) The comparison to Thiago is off - Thiago has never played in England and was a luxury signing, which didn't fit into our midfield at all. We'd have to adjust our play, one way or another, to accommodate a midfielder who was never a ball carriers or ball winner.
3) Suarez would have fit into the current set up without an issue as the #9.
4) Even if Jota was healthy, would you rather have Suarez to give Bobby a rest every 2-3 games (if not replace him?) or Origi? Are our current attacking options better than what Suarez can still offer?
5) Suarez would have a massive chip on his shoulder - try to make up for how he left the team originally and trying to give a gigantic middle finger to Barca. An already naturally motivated player with a chip on his shoulder? Yikes.
6) The comparison to Jota is silly - if it was him or Jota, obviously Jota (team refreshing etc). I'm looking for a player to strength our rotation and keep Bobby on his toes (have we ever had that) that would cost us nothing in transfer fees and be an asset to this team in the next 1-2 years.

Lastly, I haven't watched much footy outside of England this year ... and since December, I've barely watched any footy outside of the shit we've been served up ... but I do know that Athletico are still managed by a manager who's way of playing is more similar to classic Italian in terms of 'desired' result - 1-0. (Their league position is of little interest - I doubt they'd be there if Barca or Madrid were 'healthier' - physically and as squads). So league goals scored as per wiki:

Salah - 25 games, 17 goals
Suarez - 21 games, 16 goals
Mane - 23 games, 7 goals
Bobby -27 games, 6 goals

Suarez would have been among our top 3 wage earners. He is doing well in a much slower league. No guarantee he would have been able to do well in the premier league. He was never that pacy but even at his level, he looked slow. Giving him a 2-3 year contract would have been stupidity in my opinion.

What do you mean by comparison to Jota is silly? You have completely missed my point. I meant purchasing player with the same profile as Jota. Like we did with Gini, Mane, Salah. Youngish, talented, fits within our tactics and has potential to improve and deliver immediately. That is what delivered us two champions league finals, one champions league, and top quality performance in the premier league for over 2 years. Rather than spending all that money on Suarez, buy some one else with the profile we normally target.

This year has been a freak in terms of injuries. Injuries at the back meant our central midfield has been compromised also due to Fabinho and Hendo playing there. We have not been able to play our system effectively. Couple that with a loss of form of our front three. Everything that can go wrong has gone wrong which has resulted in this mess.

"Suarez playing with a chip on the shoulder"? Does that chip help in preventing CB injuries. You think this team does not know how to win. Doesn't have winners? I would rate Mane and Salah's one champions league and premier league over the countless medals Suarez has gathered playing in a league which is financially stacked in their favor and playing with the cheat code that is Messi. This is not Wengers later day Arsenal which needed a Suarez like character to get them over the line. This team has faced bigger hurdles and overcome bigger challenges than Suarez has done with Barca.
The reason this team is playing like this is they have faced one too many blows. And if we were competing in the dogturd 2021 La Liga with a disinterested Messi and Madrid down in the dumps, there is every chance we would be number 1 even with our injuries.

"- try to make up for how he left the team originally". He spent the two summers trying to escape from us. One summer, he was willing to antagonize everyone at the club, the city and the fanbase to "escape" to Arsenal for gods sake. And now he will come back and play with a "chip on his shoulder" to make up for that? Are we in some hollywood movie simulation?

Yes, Firmino needs competition and rest. You are correct on that. The big mistake was not not signing Suarez. The big mistake was not selling Origi and finding a suitable striking replacement. We only sell on our terms and buy the players we want on our terms. In hindsight, we should have compromised and sold Origi for the best offer we received and purchased a youngish backup striker. We did not and stuck to our guns. The upside of that strategy is the previous two seasons. The downside is this season.

The original post gave me flashbacks to 2004-2007 where we spent every transfer window pining for Michael Owen to come back and solve our striking problems. But after experiencing Torres, then Suarez, then Mane and Salah, the one thing we should learn as a fanbase is the answer is not in the past, we need to look forward.

 

[Alan Hardaker]

We look and play like a tired team..mentally and physically. Klopp looks wacked as well. And his thinking is stale. First thing for me is put Fabio back in midfield.For all his reading of the game, I don't really think he has a defenders instinct, plus Thiago is struggling to make an impact, good passer and very combative but just doesn't influence enough, offers little on the front foot. Phillips and Milner if we have to. Also, to nobody's surprise, we have overplayed the high line. No spark from midfield.Gini doing his best. Shaqiri should get a 3/4 game run to give him half a chance and encourage him to play just off the front 3..not wondering around on the wing.
Alisson.
Trent...Phillips...Milner...Robbo
Shaqiri,Fabio,Gini
Salah,Mane,Jota.

Much talk about Jones but for me he has to show more to talk in terms of him being a legend in the making.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Yes, Firmino needs competition and rest. You are correct on that. The big mistake was not not signing Suarez. The big mistake was not selling Origi and finding a suitable striking replacement. We only sell on our terms and buy the players we want on our terms. In hindsight, we should have compromised and sold Origi for the best offer we received and purchased a youngish backup striker. We did not and stuck to our guns. The upside of that strategy is the previous two seasons. The downside is this season.

The original post gave me flashbacks to 2004-2007 where we spent every transfer window pining for Michael Owen to come back and solve our striking problems. But after experiencing Torres, then Suarez, then Mane and Salah, the one thing we should learn as a fanbase is the answer is not in the past, we need to look forward.

No, because people wanted Owen back to start and be our primary striker.
Suarez was for me a back up option and quite possibly the best back up option we could have found that would have guaranteed goals, especially considering we're seeing the chances being missed by Mane & Bobby this year ...

But I'm happy to let you continue on - you're right, Suarez would have only come here on his term,s it's a terrible idea and had we signed him, it would have left us in the same place, or even worse. So waste of money. Onward and upwards.

 

[jimmy]

I'm also in the Suárez camp.
We could do with him as a rotation player in our forward line.

 

[goodspam]

Anyone think that we are missing "Buvac the brain" more than we thought we would?

 

[Squiggles]

Anyone think that we are missing "Buvac the brain" more than we thought we would?

No, and it's boring hearing about him, TBH. Where was his name being mentioned when we walked to a league title?

 

[Holle]

No, and it's boring hearing about him, TBH. Where was his name being mentioned when we walked to a league title?

Plus he also was there at Dortmund 2014/15.

 

[Halmeister]

Anyone think that we are missing "Buvac the brain" more than we thought we would?

Yeah, it went proper downhill after he left.

 

[binomial]

Why are we too nice? Where’s the anger, the aggression? Where’s the fight to win the ball high up the pitch? No urgency to get back into games? The players have given up.

 

[Modo]

Suarez would have never rejoined. I don't think he has anything against fans, it's about how he felt that the club treated him.
But yeah, I was advocating signing him.