Poll Best manager since Kenny?

[mark1975]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114440#msg1114440 date=1275839064]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114428#msg1114428 date=1275837513]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40492.msg1114426#msg1114426 date=1275837321]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114423#msg1114423 date=1275837148]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114421#msg1114421 date=1275836944]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40492.msg1114410#msg1114410 date=1275835495]
It's obviously Benitez, followed by Houllier.

Any other answer makes you look dim, or mental, or both
[/quote]

Evan's did put together the 2nd best team in the country. Houllier dismantled it and put in its place the 3rd best team. Benitez dimantled than one about put together the 4th best.

In addition Evan's never presided over anything as pathetic as the final seasons of houllier and benitez. Moreover we always played good attacking cohesive football under Evans. Which judging by the last decade seems to have been an extrememly difficult thing to achieve.
[/quote]

Didn't we finish 7th in Evans' last season? 3rd the season before, and 4th the season before that.
[/quote]

ha ha
[/quote]

Evans' highest finish was 3rd (twice I think). And when you consider he finished 7th in a league that was arguably competitively inferior to last seasons...
[/quote]

you're laughing about the season houllier was joint manager
[/quote]

Right, and... ? He still wasn't manager of the second best team in the country, given he finished 3rd twice and 4th twice.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114441#msg1114441 date=1275839115]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114440#msg1114440 date=1275839064]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114428#msg1114428 date=1275837513]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40492.msg1114426#msg1114426 date=1275837321]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114423#msg1114423 date=1275837148]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114421#msg1114421 date=1275836944]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40492.msg1114410#msg1114410 date=1275835495]
It's obviously Benitez, followed by Houllier.

Any other answer makes you look dim, or mental, or both
[/quote]

Evan's did put together the 2nd best team in the country. Houllier dismantled it and put in its place the 3rd best team. Benitez dimantled than one about put together the 4th best.

In addition Evan's never presided over anything as pathetic as the final seasons of houllier and benitez. Moreover we always played good attacking cohesive football under Evans. Which judging by the last decade seems to have been an extrememly difficult thing to achieve.
[/quote]

Didn't we finish 7th in Evans' last season? 3rd the season before, and 4th the season before that.
[/quote]

ha ha
[/quote]

Evans' highest finish was 3rd (twice I think). And when you consider he finished 7th in a league that was arguably competitively inferior to last seasons...
[/quote]

you're laughing about the season houllier was joint manager
[/quote]

Right, and... ? He still wasn't manager of the second best team in the country, given he finished 3rd twice and 4th twice.
[/quote]

i guess we look at things differently. are you going to tell me that we are the 7th best team in the country today? are villa a better team than us?

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114444#msg1114444 date=1275839337]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114441#msg1114441 date=1275839115]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114440#msg1114440 date=1275839064]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114428#msg1114428 date=1275837513]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40492.msg1114426#msg1114426 date=1275837321]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114423#msg1114423 date=1275837148]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114421#msg1114421 date=1275836944]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40492.msg1114410#msg1114410 date=1275835495]
It's obviously Benitez, followed by Houllier.

Any other answer makes you look dim, or mental, or both
[/quote]

Evan's did put together the 2nd best team in the country. Houllier dismantled it and put in its place the 3rd best team. Benitez dimantled than one about put together the 4th best.

In addition Evan's never presided over anything as pathetic as the final seasons of houllier and benitez. Moreover we always played good attacking cohesive football under Evans. Which judging by the last decade seems to have been an extrememly difficult thing to achieve.
[/quote]

Didn't we finish 7th in Evans' last season? 3rd the season before, and 4th the season before that.
[/quote]

ha ha
[/quote]

Evans' highest finish was 3rd (twice I think). And when you consider he finished 7th in a league that was arguably competitively inferior to last seasons...
[/quote]

you're laughing about the season houllier was joint manager
[/quote]

Right, and... ? He still wasn't manager of the second best team in the country, given he finished 3rd twice and 4th twice.
[/quote]

i guess we look at things differently. are you going to tell me that we are the 7th best team in the country today? are villa a better team than us?
[/quote]

I don't get your point. We're not the 7th best team in the country, because we know the same squad finished 2nd the season before. So average it, Evans finished 3rd and 4th twice, and then 7th with a managerial partner, so how does that equate to us being the second best team in the country?

 

[monsieurdantes]

thats what i mean about looking at things differently. why don't you average arsenal's finishes,
12th 5th 3rd 1st 2nd

or chelsea's
11th 11th 6th 4th 3rd

now tell me, on average who was the second best team in the country?

 

[Richey]

Its between GH and Benitez certainly. Benitez probably just shades it in terms of success - 2 CL finals, one semi final, one FA cup, runner up in league - but I would say he wouldn't have taken us that far without Houllier's groundwork.

Houllier did some great work, took us as far as he could, Benitez took us further but still ultimately only as far as he could, not far enough.

 

[gene hughes]

Well, I voted Ged too, like Oncy and Vlad (in the other thread).

Evans may have had the team playing some champagne football at times but we were a bit of a joke and had some real chancers at the club. I remember Houllier coming along and it really felt like he professionalized things again. He also introduced a strong physical and athletic dimension to the squad, which we'd been missing. In just a couple of transfer windows he brought in Hamann, Hyypia, Henchoz, Heskey, Babbel and Westerveld and we weren't just outplaying teams, we were steamrollering them at times. Carragher, who'd always looked very dodgy to me under Evans, was given time and encouragement and started to play his socks off and become the player we've come to know. Gerrard was brought through, I don't need to tell you how important that was. He had the stones to get rid of Fowler, and few would dispute the wisdom of that decision now. We lost McManaman too, but still we improved.

We went from being a joke in Europe to taking the first steps to regaining respectability, a famous UEFA Cup win and one memorable CL run which resulted in an unfortunate loss to Leverkeusen (was it?) in the QF. I thought we could have won it that year.

Then things started to go a bit stale, no question and we had an awful 2002 Summer transfer window. All three signings were a disaster, we were all appalled, 20 million down the tubes eh? There was a lot less money available to him after that.

Anyway, then along came Rafa, he said we were doing something like 60% of stuff right when he took over and promised that would increase. He inherited a strong squad of players (and a few cabbages too) and won a European Cup with a group of players made up mainly of Houllier signings or local lads Houllier had nurtured - Alonso and Garcia were the notable exceptions (thank God Morientes was cup tied in Europe or we would have won nothing).

Using the Houllier back 6 (Dudek, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Finnan, Hamann - all great signings) we made it through to the final despite having an awful group stage (Gerrard bailed us out of that) - although personally I think we rode our luck against Chelsea. In the final our tactics were a disaster, rafa's attempt to change things for the second half was mercifully prevented by an injury to Finnan forcing him to bring on Hamann and we ended up having the best night of our lives because Hamman's presence set Gerrard free. Personally, I regard our successful campaign in Europe that year as being mainly due to Gerrard, not rafa. I know a lot of Liverpool fans don't like Gerrard, so I don't expect this to be a popular view.

After 2005 Rafa gradually got greater and great control of the transfer budget, something he had never had in his career (Valencia having denied him that repeatedly). Thanks to some Americans borrowing money we were now able to buy some pricey players. He had two big successes, two big failures and one on which the jury is out. But the biggest issue with rafa was the enormous number of shit players he brought in. He made over 100 signings apparently, and I would argue that about 90% were poor. Every manager is allowed to make mistakes, but that's just crazy. In the time he was at the club, he also failed to bring through any young players, or locals from the academy. Warnock was sold even though he's better than any left back currently at the club.

As for the quality of the football, here I think the two eras were quite similar. We never got the style of play we saw from valencia, in fact it was still a bit one dimensional and often conservative, as it was under Ged. We've also gone from over reliance on one pacey striker to over reliance on another.

Looking at the premiership by way of comparison, I actually think it's not too different in terms of its competitiveness. Both had to deal with strong manchester United sides, Chelsea were stronger during rafa's time but I think Arsenal were much stronger when Ged was with us. Ged also had to compete with strong Newcastle and Leeds sides so I don't wanna hear any shit about Spurs or Man City.

I'm not denying rafa was a good manager and did some great things and in terms of the value of trophies, the European Cup is greater than any of the trophies we won under Ged but I would judge them based on what they inherited and what they were then able to go on and achieve. We won the CL with rafa but generally speaking, I don't think we're in a much better position than we were in 2004. I think between 98 and 2004, Ged really got us back on our feet.

 

[Halmeister]

Good post Gene. I still think Rafa, but that post makes it a lot closer in my head.

I couldn't agree more about how we're still reliant on one star striker and Gerrard 6 years after Houllier has left.

 

[gene hughes]

I deliberately didn't go into the way each manager behaved in the media, although that's clearly part of the job these days.

 

[jexykrodic]

I can understand disagreements about Rafa's teams and tactics what I don't understand is this 'not respecting him as a man' view. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Given that (as far as I know) that no-one here has met him, spoken to him or his family, friends and associates, hasn't worked with him or been personally effected by his decisions what is it that means he didn't merit respect?

If it's a view based on opinion pieces or forum rumour or perception based on hearsay is that really the basis for rancour? If there is a genuine example of an act he has undoubtably committed that means he can't be respected what was it?

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114452#msg1114452 date=1275840033]
thats what i mean about looking at things differently. why don't you average arsenal's finishes,
12th 5th 3rd 1st 2nd

or chelsea's
11th 11th 6th 4th 3rd

now tell me, on average who was the second best team in the country?
[/quote]

I give up. We never finished 2nd under Evans, EVER. So again, how were we the second best team in the country?

 

[Avmenon]

I'm still trying to figure out if Dantes is asking a trick question.

'Are we the 7th best team in the country'?

Well,yes.

That's what the table says.

 

[Judge Jules]

An uncharacteristically long post from you, gene, which makes me wish you'd do more of them.

But I must still disagree. IMO what you've put up there is, at most, a case for the two men's equivalence as managers, and arguably a reinforcement of the majority view that Rafa takes the prize. Yes, GH had quite a rebuilding job on his hands, but when you look at the league positions achieved by Uncle Roy the extent of what GH had to do frankly doesn't look any greater than the task which faced Rafa. Yes, the squad with which Rafa won the CL was largely GH's, but (a) it needed vital additions brought in by Rafa and (b) GH was never going to win Bigears with those players. Yes, Rafa made mistakes on the night of the Istanbul miracle but (a) he'd masterminded our path to the Final and (b) he made the right decisions at half-time. Yes, Carra improved under GH, but as a LB (initially because we had no-one else) and it took Rafa to bring out of him the excellent CB he's since proven to be - under GH he was a liability in that position.

All in all - close, but no cigar IMHO.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=40492.msg1114465#msg1114465 date=1275842571]
I'm still trying to figure out if Dantes is asking a trick question.

'Are we the 7th best team in the country'?

Well,yes.

That's what the table says.
[/quote]

I understand his point, partly. The table doesn't lie so they say, but do you believe that we're the 7th best team in the country? I don't, there are so many factors effecting it. But, to say Evans was in charge of the second best team in the country, when that team finished 3rd(x2), 4th(x2) and 7th, well someone point me in the right direction, because I'm fucked if I can see why that means we were the 2nd best team.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40492.msg1114462#msg1114462 date=1275842277]
I can understand disagreements about Rafa's teams and tactics what I don't understand is this 'not respecting him as a man' view. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Given that (as far as I know) that no-one here has met him, spoken to him or his family, friends and associates, hasn't worked with him or been personally effected by his decisions what is it that means he didn't merit respect?

If it's a view based on opinion pieces or forum rumour or perception based on hearsay is that really the basis for rancour? If there is a genuine example of an act he has undoubtably committed that means he can't be respected what was it?
[/quote]

I'm not sure if you'd be able to boil it down to just one act committed.

I actually had no problem with his style; although I think the best managers knew when to be tough and strict and when to be more encouraging.

The problem was it began to work a lot less well as time progressed.

 

[vantage]

It seems that 75% of 6CM rate Rafa the top of the pile. Which is interesting. Given we are apparantly on teh verge of signing Uncle Woy or Madman O Neill......

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114463#msg1114463 date=1275842429]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=40492.msg1114452#msg1114452 date=1275840033]
thats what i mean about looking at things differently. why don't you average arsenal's finishes,
12th 5th 3rd 1st 2nd

or chelsea's
11th 11th 6th 4th 3rd

now tell me, on average who was the second best team in the country?
[/quote]

I give up. We never finished 2nd under Evans, EVER. So again, how were we the second best team in the country?
[/quote]

4th in a two horse race?

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40492.msg1114469#msg1114469 date=1275842727]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=40492.msg1114465#msg1114465 date=1275842571]
I'm still trying to figure out if Dantes is asking a trick question.

'Are we the 7th best team in the country'?

Well,yes.

That's what the table says.
[/quote]

I understand his point, partly. The table doesn't lie so they say, but do you believe that we're the 7th best team in the country? I don't, there are so many factors effecting it. But, to say Evans was in charge of the second best team in the country, when that team finished 3rd(x2), 4th(x2) and 7th, well someone point me in the right direction, because I'm fucked if I can see why that means we were the 2nd best team.
[/quote]

I don't think we have the 7th best team, but we clearly play the 7th best football...if that makes any sense.We have better players, but what the point if we cant get them to play good football.It's a bit like Crazy Horse's post a few posts ago; does anyone think Rafa is a worse manager than MON or Hodgson?

Not a chance; both have the inferior record...but as has been said, do we stay on the path we're on now and hope for the best or i the gamble made?I personally feel the right decision was made; even if the next manager has a poorer track record..and he will.

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=40492.msg1114472#msg1114472 date=1275842785]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40492.msg1114462#msg1114462 date=1275842277]
I can understand disagreements about Rafa's teams and tactics what I don't understand is this 'not respecting him as a man' view. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Given that (as far as I know) that no-one here has met him, spoken to him or his family, friends and associates, hasn't worked with him or been personally effected by his decisions what is it that means he didn't merit respect?

If it's a view based on opinion pieces or forum rumour or perception based on hearsay is that really the basis for rancour? If there is a genuine example of an act he has undoubtably committed that means he can't be respected what was it?
[/quote]

I'm not sure if you'd be able to boil it down to just one act committed.

I actually had no problem with his style; although I think the best managers knew when to be tough and strict and when to be more encouraging.

The problem was it began to work a lot less well as time progressed.


[/quote]

I'd be open to hearing about several acts that mean he can't be respected as a man. Go ahead I'm intrigued.

 

[Avmenon]

The handling of Crouch,the handling of Alonso, the handling of Keane, his obsessive need for cautious play, the constant conveyor belt of players leaving and coming, the freezing out of players he didnt like, the dropping of players irrespective of how well they played, players playing no mnatter how well the played, and yes, the rotation.

NOthing major; but when these things accumulate year after year and we see the quality of football deteriorate, I'm not surprised some get a little frustrated.

(I'm sure others can add to thism I'm just thinking off the top of my head)

 

[gene hughes]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40492.msg1114467#msg1114467 date=1275842656]
An uncharacteristically long post from you, gene, which makes me wish you'd do more of them.

But I must still disagree. IMO what you've put up there is, at most, a case for the two men's equivalence as managers, and arguably a reinforcement of the majority view that Rafa takes the prize. Yes, GH had quite a rebuilding job on his hands, but when you look at the league positions achieved by Uncle Roy the extent of what GH had to do frankly doesn't look any greater than the task which faced Rafa. Yes, the squad with which Rafa won the CL was largely GH's, but (a) it needed vital additions brought in by Rafa and (b) GH was never going to win Bigears with those players. Yes, Rafa made mistakes on the night of the Istanbul miracle but (a) he'd masterminded our path to the Final and (b) he made the right decisions at half-time. Yes, Carra improved under GH, but as a LB (initially because we had no-one else) and it took Rafa to bring out of him the excellent CB he's since proven to be - under GH he was a liability in that position.

All in all - close, but no cigar IMHO.
[/quote]

Jules, I think only 2 of the 2005 CL final players were bought by rafa so I don't know how you can say we'd never win the CL with "those players". I don't think Carra was a liability at left back. In fact he's probably still the best left back at the club (since Riise and Warnock left).

I don't think we're going to agree on this Jules.

To me simply put, every year we've moved further from Gad's 2004 squad of players and the fewer there have been, the less we've won. We're not getting to finals now that it's rafa's squad.

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=40492.msg1114482#msg1114482 date=1275843474]

The handling of Crouch,the handling of Alonso, the handling of Keane, his obsessive need for cautious play, the constant conveyor belt of players leaving and coming, the freezing out of players he didnt like, the dropping of players irrespective of how well they played, players playing no mnatter how well the played, and yes, the rotation.

NOthing major; but when these things accumulate year after year and we see the quality of football deteriorate, I'm not surprised some get a little frustrated.

(I'm sure others can add to thism I'm just thinking off the top of my head)
[/quote]

These are opinions about his managerial style, I'm sure you'd find a counter-argument to all of them. Frankly how he personally operated is unknown to us, we weren't privy to what went on.

When people say they can't respect him as a man I thought they knew something about him personally that meant he couldn't be respected.

It's funny how some can respect the job he did but not the man without knowing him or a reason for it.

 

[singlerider]

I would imagine the issue is how he conducted himself in the media glare.

There was probably a bit too much dirty laundry being aired in public for some people's liking.

Plus, even the most die-hard RCDNWer would not be able to find any justifiable reason for the treatment of Crouch and Riise when they were on their way out. He could have played them in the final game at home, a nothing game that had little or significance, and the faithful could have said a proper goodbye to two decent servants to the club.

For me that has to rank as one of the lowest points of his tenure

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40492.msg1114487#msg1114487 date=1275844322]
I would imagine the issue is how he conducted himself in the media glare.

There was probably a bit too much dirty laundry being aired in public for some people's liking.

Plus, even the most die-hard RCDNWer would not be able to find any justifiable reason for the treatment of Crouch and Riise when they were on their way out. He could have played them in the final game at home, a nothing game that had little or significance, and the faithful could have said a proper goodbye to two decent servants to the club.

For me that has to rank as one of the lowest points of his tenure
[/quote]

He could be ruthless, no doubt. Personally I don't have a problem with that, it's a trait that's needed in high pressure positions but of course you can temper it with a little empathy.

I can't say that episode would (and didn't) make me question the respect I had for Rafa.

 

[singlerider]

If the game had meant anything, I could have forgiven it, like you say - sometimes you've got to be ruthless to succeed.

However, the fact that we had nothing to play for, and there was no reason not to play them other than sheer bloody-mindedness, reflects very badly on him in my books. I thought it was disrespectful to the players (especially JAR, who was a fantastic servant to the club) and disrespectful to the fans, who should have been given the opportunity to show their appreciation for two well-liked players.

Hey ho, all in the past now

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=40492.msg1114483#msg1114483 date=1275843575]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40492.msg1114467#msg1114467 date=1275842656]
An uncharacteristically long post from you, gene, which makes me wish you'd do more of them.

But I must still disagree. IMO what you've put up there is, at most, a case for the two men's equivalence as managers, and arguably a reinforcement of the majority view that Rafa takes the prize. Yes, GH had quite a rebuilding job on his hands, but when you look at the league positions achieved by Uncle Roy the extent of what GH had to do frankly doesn't look any greater than the task which faced Rafa. Yes, the squad with which Rafa won the CL was largely GH's, but (a) it needed vital additions brought in by Rafa and (b) GH was never going to win Bigears with those players. Yes, Rafa made mistakes on the night of the Istanbul miracle but (a) he'd masterminded our path to the Final and (b) he made the right decisions at half-time. Yes, Carra improved under GH, but as a LB (initially because we had no-one else) and it took Rafa to bring out of him the excellent CB he's since proven to be - under GH he was a liability in that position.

All in all - close, but no cigar IMHO.
[/quote]

Jules, I think only 2 of the 2005 CL final players were bought by rafa so I don't know how you can say we'd never win the CL with "those players". I don't think Carra was a liability at left back. In fact he's probably still the best left back at the club (since Riise and Warnock left).

I don't think we're going to agree on this Jules.

To me simply put, every year we've moved further from Gad's 2004 squad of players and the fewer there have been, the less we've won. We're not getting to finals now that it's rafa's squad.
[/quote]

I was going to mention this in the other thread but it seems more appropriate in this one now.

My favourite back 4 in Rafa's era is the one he got from Ged, but this is the crucial bit, that back 4 became great under Rafa. In that last season under Ged when it first played as a unit, it was distinctly average. They conceded more goals in the league in Ged's last season than our current back 4 in the one just gone.

As JJ already mentioned, Carra was a very good left back and very good utility player but he wasn't an outstanding centre-half when Ged was in charge and Finnan had a distinctly average first season for us. You can't take away Rafa's influence on that defensive unit, nor Pepe Reina's for that matter when he joined.

I know it's really hard not to include the trophies that both men lead us to, but if we tried to, this is the way I look at it. In terms of the squad, I would say Ged managed to put together the strongest squad. I have a memory of watching one match back then and the camera panned across our bench and you saw Litmanen, Fowler and Smicer sitting there. When I saw that, I thought bloody hell, our squad is better than United's. I never thought that under Rafa.

But, in terms of which had put together the best first 11. That goes to Rafa. Last season we had a team that could have beaten any team in any stadium in the world and you could never say that any the Liverpool teams that Ged built.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=40492.msg1114483#msg1114483 date=1275843575]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40492.msg1114467#msg1114467 date=1275842656]
An uncharacteristically long post from you, gene, which makes me wish you'd do more of them.

But I must still disagree. IMO what you've put up there is, at most, a case for the two men's equivalence as managers, and arguably a reinforcement of the majority view that Rafa takes the prize. Yes, GH had quite a rebuilding job on his hands, but when you look at the league positions achieved by Uncle Roy the extent of what GH had to do frankly doesn't look any greater than the task which faced Rafa. Yes, the squad with which Rafa won the CL was largely GH's, but (a) it needed vital additions brought in by Rafa and (b) GH was never going to win Bigears with those players. Yes, Rafa made mistakes on the night of the Istanbul miracle but (a) he'd masterminded our path to the Final and (b) he made the right decisions at half-time. Yes, Carra improved under GH, but as a LB (initially because we had no-one else) and it took Rafa to bring out of him the excellent CB he's since proven to be - under GH he was a liability in that position.

All in all - close, but no cigar IMHO.
[/quote]

Jules, I think only 2 of the 2005 CL final players were bought by rafa so I don't know how you can say we'd never win the CL with "those players". I don't think Carra was a liability at left back. In fact he's probably still the best left back at the club (since Riise and Warnock left).

I don't think we're going to agree on this Jules.

To me simply put, every year we've moved further from Gad's 2004 squad of players and the fewer there have been, the less we've won. We're not getting to finals now that it's rafa's squad.
[/quote]

Gene, those "only two" were Alonso and li'l Luis. You won't need a reminder from me of how crucial they were to our CL run. I wasn't making a general point about the squad - my point was that GH specifically would not have been able to bring the CL home with them, whereas Rafa did, and in his first season at that.

I certainly agree that Carra wasn't a liability at LB - quite the contrary. In fact I'd say he was also a better LB than either JAR or Warnock, neither of whom could defend anything like as well as he did. It was at CB that he looked a fish out of water under GH.

As for overall progress, it's only three years since we were last in the CL final, and in one of those years we damn near won the title.

If the above doesn't persuade you then no, we won't agree. But I love ya anyway.

 

[refugee]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40492.msg1114487#msg1114487 date=1275844322]
Plus, even the most die-hard RCDNWer would not be able to find any justifiable reason for the treatment of Crouch and Riise when they were on their way out. He could have played them in the final game at home, a nothing game that had little or significance, and the faithful could have said a proper goodbye to two decent servants to the club.

For me that has to rank as one of the lowest points of his tenure
[/quote]

Rafas treatment of Crouch pales in comparison to Geds treatment of Fowler, if anyone deserved a chance to say goodbye to the fans it was God.

 

[spider-Neil]

* all managers freeze out players
* all managers buy shit players
* all managers make odd choices with regards to tactics and subs
* all managers play people out of position

 

[gene hughes]

So it's decided then, all managers are the same. Thanks for clearing that up Neil.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=40492.msg1114517#msg1114517 date=1275851407]
So it's decided then, all managers are the same. Thanks for clearing that up Neil.
[/quote]

no probs 🙂

all managers do the above the managers that go onto the biggest success are the ones that can get most out of their players. like fergie, its amazing that he can drive his players season after season and his passion for the game is still as strong as ever.