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Backroom Shake Up.. Marsh & Pascoe gone.. More to come..

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You can picture Werner and Gordon going through that huge dossier of Rodgers': '...nope, don't need that bit - rip! - no, nor that - rip!...' He would have walked out with half a page left in his hand. It's not really clear what FSG still believe in about him.
I don't think he took a dossier in with him. I think he grabbed two envelopes from the stationery cupboard and went into the meeting declaring: "At the start of the season I wrote down the names of the two people who would let the group down..."

Bye Mike, bye Colin.
 
I think he'd sell his granny to keep this job.


No, I don't think that's right at all. Remember he held back when they first offered him the job. He was determined to get it on his own terms. He's an obsessive coach, he has a huge ego as a coach, he wants The Rodgers Style to be celebrated by the media, he is dogmatic about his methods. So why would he eagerly embrace the idea of losing his yes men and having people imposed on him who will almost certainly question some of his decisions and challenge his plans and pressure him to be more flexible? Now, he's not stupid, he knows resigning will set his career back, but he's just not wired to manage on someone else's instructions. I doubt he's entirely convinced he should stay.
 
Well they'll probably have to pay more for their upgrades, so I don't see there's much in that idea.

What I meant is that sacking Rodgers is not cheap given his new contract. Paying a year salary to Pascoe and not renew Marsh is next to nothing. The upgrades will cost a small delta on top of that.
 
Yes, but there's a clause in his contract that means FSG will have to pay out far less because he failed to make the top four. If they think they need a new manager, it's cheaper as well as better to make a clean break now, rather than revamp the staff, meander on for a few months, risk more players getting alienated, then sacking Rodgers, then having to invest in a whole new set-up. I just don't think they got the calculator out for any of this. They either think Rodgers might reinvent himself if surrounded by different people, or they're waiting for their new manager to make himself available.
 
It will probably be a senior, experienced coach as the assistant manager and an ex-player as the replacement for Marsh (who deserved the sack anyway for his horrendous wall passes in the warm-ups).

If it is Paco Ayesteran as the top coach and Hyypia/Zenden then I will start to think it is Gerrard advising FSG and Rodgers is just keeping the seat warm until Stevie's back from the States with all his badges.
 
What I meant is that sacking Rodgers is not cheap given his new contract. Paying a year salary to Pascoe and not renew Marsh is next to nothing. The upgrades will cost a small delta on top of that.

I don't think the upgrades will come cheap. The upgrades have to be thought out with a longterm plan, because if Rodgers' job isn't secure, it'd be naive to bring in new staff now on big contracts, to then bring in a new manager in (say) 6 months and have to start again, with them bringing in their own staff and us having to pay off more again in compensation. Whoever we bring in will have pedigree and with that comes assurances and money.

It doesn't make sense to say that they are taking short cuts to reduce costs, either way it simply doesn't add up, it's going to be expensive whatever happens.
 
It will probably be a senior, experienced coach as the assistant manager and an ex-player as the replacement for Marsh (who deserved the sack anyway for his horrendous wall passes in the warm-ups).

If it is Paco Ayesteran as the top coach and Hyypia/Zenden then I will start to think it is Gerrard advising FSG and Rodgers is just keeping the seat warm until Stevie's back from the States with all his badges.



That's the bit I find puzzling, because, make no mistake, Rodgers sees himself as the coach - THE coach - and he's not going to welcome someone who expects to have much input into that aspect. Similarly, a very good coach is not going to be able to stand playing second fiddle to someone like Rodgers. I can't see it working unless the new assistant manager is brought in mainly to be a sounding board with tactical input, while Rodgers gets another protege in place of Marsh.
 
No, I don't think that's right at all. Remember he held back when they first offered him the job. He was determined to get it on his own terms..

That was then. I think the same ego you describe would now see him do anything and sacrifice anyone to be seen to keep the job.
 
That's the bit I find puzzling, because, make no mistake, Rodgers sees himself as the coach - THE coach - and he's not going to welcome someone who expects to have much input into that aspect. Similarly, a very good coach is not going to be able to stand playing second fiddle to someone like Rodgers. I can't see it working unless the new assistant manager is brought in mainly to be a sounding board with tactical input, while Rodgers gets another protege in place of Marsh.

It's difficult to see from the outside, we can only really judge him on his ego. I think in some respects as a coach he's been as stubborn as the rest, but then in other aspects he's shown he can be flexible and compromising. Maybe he's reached a stage, on the back of that horrendous finish, where he's admitted to himself that he needs help with certain parts of the set up. The fans can see the flaws, the pundits can, the media can, other managers certainly can, so the only way he goes from here is to either become defeatist and start digging his own grave, or he mans up and tries to go to the next level by learning and adapting his principles.

Either way, this coming season will make or break his career, IMO.
 
Dont worry about Mr Rodgers guys.
He got this.

Every time you call him Mr Rodgers, I just can't get the image of Mr Ed out of my head - who he seems like becoming.

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That was then. I think the same ego you describe would now see him do anything and sacrifice anyone to be seen to keep the job.



Look: I'm very, very confident, thanks to certain sources, that Rodgers is thoroughly pissed off about this and had absolutely no desire to lose Pascoe and tried to resist it. If you want to argue (and argue and argue) the contrary, fine, but, yet again, it's going nowhere.
 
That's the bit I find puzzling, because, make no mistake, Rodgers sees himself as the coach - THE coach - and he's not going to welcome someone who expects to have much input into that aspect. Similarly, a very good coach is not going to be able to stand playing second fiddle to someone like Rodgers. I can't see it working unless the new assistant manager is brought in mainly to be a sounding board with tactical input, while Rodgers gets another protege in place of Marsh.

Of course he is THE Coach. Who else could be clever enough to come up with four different systems in one smi final against Tim Sherwood and Aston Villa? Just to bad the occacion was to big for a small charlie club like ours and suited Tim and the Villains better.....
 
It's difficult to see from the outside, we can only really judge him on his ego. I think in some respects as a coach he's been as stubborn as the rest, but then in other aspects he's shown he can be flexible and compromising. Maybe he's reached a stage, on the back of that horrendous finish, where he's admitted to himself that he needs help with certain parts of the set up. The fans can see the flaws, the pundits can, the media can, other managers certainly can, so the only way he goes from here is to either become defeatist and start digging his own grave, or he mans up and tries to go to the next level by learning and adapting his principles.

Either way, this coming season will make or break his career, IMO.

Certainly his LFC career, and maybe thereby his top-flight career. However his time here comes to an end, I suspect he'll still get jobs afterwards, but if he doesn't leave Liverpool on a high note those jobs are unlikely to be at the same level.
 
Certainly his LFC career, and maybe thereby his top-flight career. However his time here comes to an end, I suspect he'll still get jobs afterwards, but if he doesn't leave Liverpool on a high note those jobs are unlikely to be at the same level.

At the moment our level is low, fighting for UEFA cup qualification against Villa, Swansea and - god forbid -Stoke City.... And the worst thing is that I guess your right... He belongs a level down from there.
 
Yeah we're fighting it out with Villa who were nearly relegated.
Fucking hell.
 
Our current level isn't indicative of our overall standing as a club and, regardless of how we're currently doing, people in football know that. Klopp wouldn't be interested in the job otherwise, to take just one example. It's true that we have a long way to go to close the gap between our performance and our expectations, but that in itself is one of the things which make the Liverpool job such a big one.
 
Of course he is THE Coach. Who else could be clever enough to come up with four different systems in one smi final against Tim Sherwood and Aston Villa? Just to bad the occacion was to big for a small charlie club like ours and suited Tim and the Villains better.....


You're not going to get me disagreeing. But I'm not saying I like him. I'm simply saying what he's like.
 
Yeah we're fighting it out with Villa who were nearly relegated.
Fucking hell.

People wonder why I get riled by criticism that's completely lacking in any sort of perspective. It's like, yeah I hate him, so I'll take it as far to the extreme as I can. Macca and a few others know how to talk about him objectively, even though their stance is clear, and I'm happy to talk about it for hours with them on here, it's constructive and it gets somewhere, it's interesting hearing different, knowledgeable and well thought out angles.

And then you have Sean, Insig and Jono who are beyond reasoning with.
 
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And then you have Sean, Insig and Jono who are beyond reasoning with.


Why do you get so riled though?

Have the argument once, twice, ten times even but after that point, if they are beyond reasoning with as you say, it's kinda akin to yelling at people on TV.
 
People wonder why I get riled by criticism that's completely lacking in any sort of perspective. It's like, yeah I hate him, so I'll take it as far to the extreme as I can. Macca and a few others know how to talk about him objectively, even though their stance is clear, and I'm happy to talk about it for hours with them on here, it's constructive and it gets somewhere, it's interesting hearing different, knowledgeable and well thought out angles.

And then you have Sean, Insig and Jono who are beyond reasoning with.


Ill be fair and give you a 50% correct on this. I could have spent each post putting Things into perspective and it might be that a forum like this deserves that. But if I have a lot on my heart that is put into perspective it is easier to put it in the paper over here.But it takes time and it takes energy. So I havent done that much since the Rafa days....

However, I give it a try. There is a lot about the business model With FSG that even includes Rodgers that you would wish worked. In US sports these model do work, but the frame conditions for i.e. NHL is different. Your not allowed to spend more on wages than a certain percentage of turnover, and you have no right to sell players, only trade them. So the basics for having this work in Our kind of game is not present.

FSG has been good for us for a transition period. They saved us, but have during the period decided that they are the New kids on the Block who are to show the rest of the football world how Things will work. It is hard to see it work out based on their lack of history in the game, their lack of passion for the game, and their lack of understanding for the game. They do know their business yes, but football is equally amounts of understanding, passion and history combined With the business model.

As for Rodsgers, he has fail trmendously this year. Just as much as he came in on a high, through his envelope trick, brought in players and were ready for a shake up. He could have succeeded, but he didn't. Allen i.e (this is not an Allen thread so please feel free to disagree without reasoning why) were not even Close to work the Magic prmoised by Rodgers. He played constantly for the months after he took over and it was not until he was injured and changes were forced upon Rodgers that his midfield started to get Things going. Henderson, a KD signing given up by Rodgers, has become his Next captain. All fine, Rodgers in not the guy that i.e. of Henderson would admit others were right in their judgement and him not, in his head Henderson is probably (I am 99,99 confident only) some poor prospect made a full international based on his Rodgers own Magics.

It is been said again and again that last year is overlooked from Rodgers critics. Well the core of the team was what he inherited, and his own signings didn't exactly put the team on fire (bar Couthinho and Sturridge but then again it is that constant question on who decides on the transfers. If they are good should he get the credit and when they stink it is covered by some comitee shit?). So in my perspective he has tried and tried to put his stamp Down, and again and again got bailed out by the core that he inherited. I wil give him credit for not i.e. putting Allen back in even if I know he really want to prove everyone wrong by making Allen a banker in the team.

He has got rid of all leaders in the Squad. Agger is one that would easily say against him. It is easy to see Agger as a scape goat for poor defensive performances last season as he was pushed out for free, but the New set up is not better defensively. So put in perspective you got rid of a Natural leader and is worse off having spent a fortune.

Rodgers probably is a promising manager for a mid tabel team. But in my eyes he doesn't have what it takes for a Club like Ours. We should be better off. Having spent a lot of Money all we get is excuses. Excuses of who signed the players, of which players were injured, of not being a Club ready for the occasions, about every issue that is actually in the Control of the manager. We are not a small Charlie Club.... But we are moving in that direction. It is not solely his fault, it started With Hodgson. Kenny was, if you look at all that happened, a tad unlucky, but replacing him With a former Reading and Swansea manager is continuing slipping Our Club further Down instead of moving it up.

So back to last year. One major thing that he will never take the blame from is how we ended up not beating CP in the end. We let in Three soft goals in what seem to be a unexpalinable collaps. However, under Rodgers Our team has never defended well, so put in perspective it was probably Down to him anyway? The only difference from that crazy season was that Suarez could'nt score that important fourth goal....

So Ill put Things more into perspective going forward, but in the end this is nothing but a football forum on internet for reds fans, and here is a good Place to went som dissapointment and anger when Things are shit the same way as we sing praise and happiness when Things goes well.... But they haven't gone to welll over the last Three years have they?

PS - Things are and will be put in black and white here. If you want fifty shades of grey there are forms for that as well 🙂
 
That's better. I don't really agree about him being a midtable manager (midtable is something you regularly level at him, while comparing us to relegation fodder) and I don't agree that excuses have been made. I think people on the forums who are for and against him have said that the transfer situation is too clouded, Rodgers has never come out and blamed anyone for signing X player, fans have. So I don't think that's a criticism you can fairly level at him.

And like I've said, there's nothing wrong with venting. I'd had it with him after Palace and Stoke, but when I came back down to earth I looked at the bigger picture. The difference I was pointing out was that there was continuous venting and repetition, which was boring and pointless.
 
From the ECHO, someone said the other day that they've gone incredibly pro the club, I think they are anything but these days. They seem highly cynical about the whole thing..

Who’d have thought it, eh? All that investigating, all that speculating, and it turns out the butler did it.
Or, rather, the assistant manager and the first-team coach.

Colin Pascoe and Mike Marsh are the first victims of Liverpool’s end-of-season review, the first major casualties of a season which started badly, briefly threatened to improve, and ended shambolically.

Their departures were agreed during Tuesday’s meeting between Brendan Rodgers, Reds chairman Tom Werner and Mike Gordon, the Fenway Sports Group executive. “Mutually agreed,” is the suggestion. Believe that if you will.

Actually, in a sense, that’s correct. Basically, the proposal was put to Rodgers, and he, after discussion, signed up. He stays, while two of his key confidantes depart, and the rest of the world is left to speculate.

For the manager, it is a chastening end to a chastening week. At best, it's a stripping away of his authority. At worst, it could be perceived as an act of treachery. He survives, while his chief lieutenants pay the price.

Harsh? Possibly. But then this is an unusual step. It is rare for a club to change its staff without it affecting the manager’s position.
So have Liverpool simply picked on the easy targets? In truth it is difficult to assess, accurately, exactly what kind of impact the departures will have.

Much of a coach's work, generally, is intangible, subjective even. What works for one player may not for another. We can make educated guesses based on results and performances, but ask players about a coach, and their answers may not tally with the common perception.

It is not known whether senior Liverpool players were consulted by FSG prior to this decision. What is known is that departures of Pascoe and Marsh, who have been by Rodgers' side since he walked through the door three years ago, will certainly affect the manager, and his network of power at the club.

“My staff here are absolutely critical to what we’ve done,” he said when the Reds were flying high in April 2014. “I couldn’t do it on my own.”

He won’t be asked to do it on his own, of course, but the perception now is that whoever comes in will be FSG appointments, with the manager told to simply get on with it. And with them.

Rodgers rejected, last season, the idea that more top-level experience was needed on his staff. “We don’t need it,” was his response to suggestions a specialist defensive coach was required after a sloppy start to the campaign.

That was in October. By February, with his team’s form on the up, he was able to joke about the issue with reporters. “Must be that new defensive coach, eh?” he smiled. His joke would return to haunt him.

Now, the clamour is back. FSG’s feeling is that more experience IS needed, and that a reshuffle is for the best. They are also aware that, in Marsh, they have sacrificed a coach with a genuine affinity to the club. It would be no surprise if his replacement was another ex-player.

Already, the likes of Sami Hyypia and Jamie Carragher, as well as Pako Ayesteran, the former assistant of Rafa Benitez at Anfield, are being linked.

All would be welcomed by Reds fans, though all would, you feel, add to the pressure on Rodgers if they were appointed – all would be seen as possible replacements, looming large behind him should he stutter next season.

Of course that pressure will there regardless. Rodgers knows that better than anyone. He knows his neck is on the line, and that without Marsh, and in particular Pascoe, he has been left even more exposed. Not quite flying alone, but with less protection, less support from within, than he did have.

There is an acceptance, from both the club and its supporters, that something needed to change after last season. Sticking with the status quo was never really an option after the way the campaign ended.

Fresh eyes, fresh voices, fresh ideas on the training field – they can all help. The key now, for Rodgers especially, is that the transition as handled smoothly and professionally. No politicking, just a team pulling in the same direction, for the same cause - to bring success to Liverpool Football Club.

He’s had his warning, the manager, and he knows that the scrutiny will be enormous once pre-season gets underway. A clear, and immediate, improvement is required, both in terms of results and performances.

Fail, and the consequences are obvious. This may not be the last-chance saloon for Brendan Rodgers at Liverpool, but it is sure starting to feel like it.
 
Well, I don't see the "Echo" except for the snippets posted on this site, but tbh, mark, once you get past the headline that article reads to me as fairly complimentary towards what the owners have now done. The main target of any criticism in the article seems to be Rodgers himself.
 
Look: I'm very, very confident, thanks to certain sources, that Rodgers is thoroughly pissed off about this and had absolutely no desire to lose Pascoe and tried to resist it. If you want to argue (and argue and argue) the contrary, fine, but, yet again, it's going nowhere.
I wasn't arguing Macca I was expressing an opinion and we are all entitled to disagree with yours from time to time. I think your patronising tone was completely out of order but let's not allow it to spill over into one of your hysterical meltdowns eh?
 
There was no patronising tone at all. I really don't know what your problem is but you do this every now and again - start arguing, make the same point over and over again (not stated as opinion, incidentally, but rather as fact), then claim that people object to you having an opinion. If you read back through this exchange there's only one person being even slightly patronising and that's you.
 
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