Are we putting all our eggs in the Carroll basket?

[mark1975]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=45883.msg1356309#msg1356309 date=1309212220]
Carroll is an absolute monster in the air. Didn't Keegan say Carroll is the best at heading he's ever seen or something? It makes sense if we have players who can help him utilise that talent. And as JJ says, we'll be strengthening in ways we need strengthened anyway.
[/quote]

Yep. It's not really a case of saying, well we'll cross it to Carroll and he'll head on goal. Downing is just as good putting the ball in across the deck as he is whipping in an aerial ball for someone to get their head on the end of. There's the disruption it'll cause in the backline, players picking up Carroll while others benefit. Kuyt, Ming and Gerrard will all benefit too as they're all good in the air and we've said for ages Stevie should be in there. Arsenal are a great footballing side but they regularly fall short at both ends from setpieces and really lack a plan B, we've got a team with fight, aerial ability and as we showed between January and May, we're capable of being a footballing side too.

Just because we CAN use the option of Carroll in the air it doesn't mean we'll go all route one, it just gives us more options and more for the opposition to think about.

 

[Sunny]

Carroll does actually score with his feet you know. In fact more goals are scored with his feet.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=45883.msg1356389#msg1356389 date=1309247917]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=45883.msg1356309#msg1356309 date=1309212220]
Carroll is an absolute monster in the air. Didn't Keegan say Carroll is the best at heading he's ever seen or something? It makes sense if we have players who can help him utilise that talent. And as JJ says, we'll be strengthening in ways we need strengthened anyway.
[/quote]

Yep. It's not really a case of saying, well we'll cross it to Carroll and he'll head on goal. Downing is just as good putting the ball in across the deck as he is whipping in an aerial ball for someone to get their head on the end of. There's the disruption it'll cause in the backline, players picking up Carroll while others benefit. Kuyt, Ming and Gerrard will all benefit too as they're all good in the air and we've said for ages Stevie should be in there. Arsenal are a great footballing side but they regularly fall short at both ends from setpieces and really lack a plan B, we've got a team with fight, aerial ability and as we showed between January and May, we're capable of being a footballing side too.

Just because we CAN use the option of Carroll in the air it doesn't mean we'll go all route one, it just gives us more options and more for the opposition to think about.
[/quote]

Mark, when we're under the cosh we're going to go route 1, that's what our defenders do.

 

[Fabio]

He's got a foot like a traction engine

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1356402#msg1356402 date=1309249681]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=45883.msg1356389#msg1356389 date=1309247917]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=45883.msg1356309#msg1356309 date=1309212220]
Carroll is an absolute monster in the air. Didn't Keegan say Carroll is the best at heading he's ever seen or something? It makes sense if we have players who can help him utilise that talent. And as JJ says, we'll be strengthening in ways we need strengthened anyway.
[/quote]

Yep. It's not really a case of saying, well we'll cross it to Carroll and he'll head on goal. Downing is just as good putting the ball in across the deck as he is whipping in an aerial ball for someone to get their head on the end of. There's the disruption it'll cause in the backline, players picking up Carroll while others benefit. Kuyt, Ming and Gerrard will all benefit too as they're all good in the air and we've said for ages Stevie should be in there. Arsenal are a great footballing side but they regularly fall short at both ends from setpieces and really lack a plan B, we've got a team with fight, aerial ability and as we showed between January and May, we're capable of being a footballing side too.

Just because we CAN use the option of Carroll in the air it doesn't mean we'll go all route one, it just gives us more options and more for the opposition to think about.
[/quote]

Mark, when we're under the cosh we're going to go route 1, that's what our defenders do.
[/quote]

It isn't all they do. If things continue to go as well for us next season as they have since Kenny came back we 're not going to be under the cosh often anyway, but when it does happen a long ball out of defence can sometimes be exactly what's needed.

 

[HC]

I like Carroll.

After spending such a massive amount on him I don't see how Kenny or the club cannot persue a squad and system at least partially revolving around him .

He'll score a bucket load for us next season...

 

[Mistadobalina]

We will be an unstoppable force if it all clicks into place. Batter them with Carrol or the silky skills of Suarez to unlock defenses.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=45883.msg1356436#msg1356436 date=1309253309]
We will be an unstoppable force if it all clicks into place. Batter them with Carrol or the silky skills of Suarez to unlock defenses.
[/quote]

...or we could turn into a kick and rush team. I hoping we at least try to keep the ball on the ground.

 

[Gary25]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1356440#msg1356440 date=1309253441]
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=45883.msg1356436#msg1356436 date=1309253309]
We will be an unstoppable force if it all clicks into place. Batter them with Carrol or the silky skills of Suarez to unlock defenses.
[/quote]

...or we could turn into a kick and rush team. I hoping we at least try to keep the ball on the ground.
[/quote]

We didn't have any problem playing football on the ground when Kenny took over. Played some great stuff.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Gary25 link=topic=45883.msg1356444#msg1356444 date=1309253735]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1356440#msg1356440 date=1309253441]
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=45883.msg1356436#msg1356436 date=1309253309]
We will be an unstoppable force if it all clicks into place. Batter them with Carrol or the silky skills of Suarez to unlock defenses.
[/quote]

...or we could turn into a kick and rush team. I hoping we at least try to keep the ball on the ground.
[/quote]

We didn't have any problem playing football on the ground when Kenny took over. Played some great stuff.
[/quote]

carroll was injuried and if memory served the game carroll came back we put in an awful display. hopefully we can play great football AND carroll can fill his boots.

 

[Gary25]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1356446#msg1356446 date=1309253825]
[quote author=Gary25 link=topic=45883.msg1356444#msg1356444 date=1309253735]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1356440#msg1356440 date=1309253441]
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=45883.msg1356436#msg1356436 date=1309253309]
We will be an unstoppable force if it all clicks into place. Batter them with Carrol or the silky skills of Suarez to unlock defenses.
[/quote]

...or we could turn into a kick and rush team. I hoping we at least try to keep the ball on the ground.
[/quote]

We didn't have any problem playing football on the ground when Kenny took over. Played some great stuff.
[/quote]

carroll was injuried and if memory served the game carroll came back we put in an awful display. hopefully we can play great football AND carroll can fill his boots.
[/quote]

He started and scored twice against Man City, and we played them off the park.

In the Europa Games against Braga we were pretty shocking to be fair. Ran out of ideas and just lumped it up to Carroll. Don't think we'll see that kind of gameplan from us next season although obviously at times we'll play it up to Carroll.
Any side would if they had a 6ft 5 beast of a striker.

It's just about having a plan A and B. I think we'll have that next season.

 

[Fabio]

we battered city neil. And when carroll came back he wasnt match fit. In europe we were shite because we lacked suarez. We've bought players who will provide viable options for passes in the midfield so we shouldn't kick it up to carroll and hope for the best. The players we bought (or linked to) emphasises this

 

[Ryan]

I worry that the signing of Carroll is similar to that of Barca signing Mascherano.

Masher was great and all that, but if you've got the ball for 90% of the 90 minutes, why do you need to spend a fortune on someone who's best asset is tackling and winning the ball back? Some players regardless of how good they are just don't fit in with you.

We, when on form, have a style of play that works; fast, incisive, movement everywhere, and inter-changing widemen as opposed to winners. I have absolutely no idea where Carroll fits into that because it's just not his game.

That's not to suggest Carroll's not a good player; cos he is. I just don't see how he fits into our style of play without spending a fortune on wingers, and then proceeding to either drop or ignore the likes of Gerrard, Suarez, etc etc...

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45883.msg1356978#msg1356978 date=1309329081]
I worry that the signing of Carroll is similar to that of Barca signing Mascherano.

Masher was great and all that, but if you've got the ball for 90& of the 90 minutes, why do you need to spend a fortune on someone who's best asset is tackling and winning the ball back?

We, when on form, have a style of play that works; fast, incisive, movement everywhere, and inter-changing widemen as opposed to winners. I have absolutely no idea where Carroll fits into that because it's just not his game.

That's not to suggest Carroll's not a good player; cos he is. I just don't see how he fits into our style of play without spending a fortune on wingers, and then proceeding to either drop or ignore the likes of Gerrard, Suarez, etc etc...
[/quote]

Eggzackerly... that is why my DA status is shaky.

 

[Judge Jules]

We need the option of a big front man in some games though. £35 mill.was a sod of a lot to spend on a Plan B but, with margins likely to be very tight at the top of the league, the outlay will have been worth it if it makes the difference between drawing/losing and winning enough games.

 

[Y1]

If the big man is to play the last 15 minutes as plan B when we cannot score, he is indeed a very expensive plan B

 

[keniget]

Well, it's interesting you put it like that - "option of a big front man".

Carroll doesn't really feel like someone who is going to be brought in for some games or off the bench as the big man up front 'option'. Furthermore, our transfer strategy doesnt' really reflect that. Carroll will probably start most of our games (barring some disaster) and we are buying players that we hope will combine with him effectively.

Now that's not to say the likes of Downing can't combine well with the likes of Suarez also, but if you were going to buy a player that will fit into the style of play Ryan described and complement the likes of Suarez in the best way possible, Downing wouldn't be top of the list as we could probably get someone who fits the bill a little more closely.

Barcelona are an interesting example, but I'd go with the case of Ibrahimovic rather than Mascherano. He was brought in to give them some variation in attack and an aerial presence in the box, which is perhaps not a million miles away from the reasons we bought Carroll. Ibrahimovic probably doesn't have a rival (in the front man stakes) when it comes to technique so perhaps the idea was that he could provide that variation in attack whilst also keeping in sync with all the tippy tappy bellends buzzing around him. That didn't quite pan out because Barcelona, whilst being fantastic in possession, are all about movement and they missed the movement that Eto'o gave them in the past (and that Villa gives them now). Ibra is more static and what's more, when he receives the ball he isn't quite as fast as the rest of them so he slowed the play down. He did try and move around and often ended up on the left wing, but when you've got Ibra on the left wing you're really missing the point - you're not getting the benefit of him there and on top of that you could be playing someone else that would complement the team more.

We're not quite as tied into a style of play as Barcelona are so there is far more room for flexibility, however the prevailing attitude in this thread and others is that it'll all just work because options are good and Carroll will be another option and it will all just work... what's the problem. I don't think it's as easy as all that because things don't always work out in practice as they do on paper (as Barca found out). There is an issue of how we find a balance between the style of play Suarez thrives under and the style of play Carroll would benefit from.

Now that's not to say it won't just work seamlessly come the first game of the season, but if it does then that's down to Kenny and co. and they'll deserve a lot of credit.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=45883.msg1357009#msg1357009 date=1309333636]
We're not quite as tied into a style of play as Barcelona are so there is far more room for flexibility, however the prevailing attitude in this thread and others is that it'll all just work because options are good and Carroll will be another option and it will all just work... what's the problem. I don't think it's as easy as all that because...
[/quote]

a) "In Kenny we trust" seems to be the naive, blinkered hope
and/or
b) we don't quite want to admit we may have spent 35M on the wrong option.

 

[Judge Jules]

Excellent post keni, wouldn't disagree with any of it outright, but would be less certain than you about how Carroll will be used. Back in the glory days there was no assumption that big signings would immediately get in the team and play most of the games. We knew that we needed certain types of players and that they had to be of top quality, and we went for the ones we wanted on that basis. Once they were signed they had an equal claim, not a prior one, on a place in the team depending on (a) their form and (b) how we wanted the team set up for any given game. It's true to say that the game has changed a great deal over the past 20 years, but Kenny's been explicit about wanting to run our transfer business the Liverpool way again, so I don't think he'll hesitate to go back to practices which he thinks will still help us today.

 

[keniget]

I've made a few posts in the last month or two along the lines of "it'll be interesting to see how it all fits together" because at the moment it's hard to see it and you're just left hoping that Kenny has some master plan that'll have you sitting back at the start of the season and thinking "Wow, I was concerned for nothing because all of this.. it just works".

In terms of 35M on the wrong option, it's an interesting one. I personally don't think we should've signed Carroll in Jan. If we desperately wanted him than maybe go back in the summer, but on a number of levels I just think it was a bad transfer deal for us. I do wonder now how much focus has been placed on making it work.

 

[refugee]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=45883.msg1357019#msg1357019 date=1309334255]
I personally don't think we should've signed Carroll in Jan. If we desperately wanted him than maybe go back in the summer, but on a number of levels I just think it was a bad transfer deal for us. I do wonder now how much focus has been placed on making it work.
[/quote]

I agree with your previous post, but not this.

We needed to sign 2 strikers in Jan because we were dangerously close to being pulled into the relegation zone and we had just lost the Spanish twat. Relying solely on Suarez to hit the ground running was two dangerous a gamble and we needed to hedge our bets by signing 2 strikers. We may as well have got someone we wanted i.e. Carroll rather than a stopgap whilst we wait for the Summer transfer window to get Carroll as well.

Carroll might have been the wrong person (too early to say), but we signed him at the right time.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

all i ever hear from people is that "he's good with his feet for a big man", he's not really though is he, unless people mean he has a good shot on him, which is true, but i dont think ive ever seen him take it round anyone, at least without it being a fluke. hopefully his first touch will come back next season, and he can speed up a tiny bit

 

[Y1]

"Good feet for a big man" Is that not the description of Crouch? Except that Crouch is horrible with his headers.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

crouch might as well be tiny, theirs no point being tall if you get out-jumped by jermaine defoe

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Lewy link=topic=45883.msg1357033#msg1357033 date=1309336146]
all i ever hear from people is that "he's good with his feet for a big man", he's not really though is he, unless people mean he has a good shot on him, which is true, but i dont think ive ever seen him take it round anyone, at least without it being a fluke. hopefully his first touch will come back next season, and he can speed up a tiny bit
[/quote]

I've never really understood that expression as meaning the ability to take the ball around someone. To me it means the ability to control the ball neatly and then lay it off or shoot soon afterwards, which does apply to Carroll.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=45883.msg1357043#msg1357043 date=1309336602]
[quote author=Lewy link=topic=45883.msg1357033#msg1357033 date=1309336146]
all i ever hear from people is that "he's good with his feet for a big man", he's not really though is he, unless people mean he has a good shot on him, which is true, but i dont think ive ever seen him take it round anyone, at least without it being a fluke. hopefully his first touch will come back next season, and he can speed up a tiny bit
[/quote]

I've never really understood that expression as meaning the ability to take the ball around someone. To me it means the ability to control the ball neatly and then lay it off or shoot soon afterwards, which does apply to Carroll.
[/quote]

yeah i suppose its just the way you look at it, although andys had the first touch of a rapist for us this season, hopefully he just needs match practice

 

[mark1975]

I think people are being a bit too stereotypical about Carroll, he's by no means slow and by no means 'shit on the deck'.

I understand the concern that he may become too much of 'the' focus in attack, but there's nothing blinkered going on either, it could go either way because he's so much of an unknown quantity for us, I think he can thrive attacking the ball just as much as he can having the ball played into him to hold up, there seems to be too much focus here on the latter though. Suarez and Kuyt have shown they like to get to the byline to cut back for other players (like Ming and Maxi), while last season the biggest improvement was our ability and desire to get more players in the box, the movement was refreshing.

It doesn't have to be a case of pumping it to Carroll from deep, or looking for the aerial ball in, everytime we get in a decent crossing position. The option, if we continue where we left off, is that when we're in the final third we'll have bodies in there to attack the ball, and Carroll is an interesting prospect in that sense, both in terms of defenders worrying about his aerial ability, coupled with his aggression and the oppositions need to perhaps focus on him more, leaving the likes of Suarez to exploit the space.

That's all on paper as said, but so is the assumption that he'll promote route one football, at the end of the day it's down to Kenny and co to drum that into the side and form exactly what it is we're heading towards and I don't think it's 'naive' or particularly criminal to have some faith on that note.

 

[keniget]

I'm not suggesting he'll promote route one percentage football, but it's undeniable that we'll have to place a greater emphasis on certain things, such as crosses into to the box in order to maximize his aerial threat. That is a shift (how big that is we can debate) from the way we play at the moment.

As I was saying earlier, you can talk about a player like Downing or Carroll having more strings to their respective bows than perhaps they're given credit for, but again I feel that misses the point somewhat. I, certainly, don't want to suggest that Downing can't fit in *at all* in a pass and move system, but you must admit it's not the primary quality that is selling him to us. The same goes for Carroll and perhaps one or two others.

So with that in mind, you then say - okay, we've got these guys who can give us the sort of setup that Carroll requires and also do a bit of the other stuff as well, great. Is the benefit we get there greater than the benefit we'd get in going a different way? Or is the benefit worth the reduction in quality in other areas?

And that's really the crux of it for me.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=refugee link=topic=45883.msg1357032#msg1357032 date=1309336098]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=45883.msg1357019#msg1357019 date=1309334255]
I personally don't think we should've signed Carroll in Jan. If we desperately wanted him than maybe go back in the summer, but on a number of levels I just think it was a bad transfer deal for us. I do wonder now how much focus has been placed on making it work.
[/quote]

I agree with your previous post, but not this.

We needed to sign 2 strikers in Jan because we were dangerously close to being pulled into the relegation zone and we had just lost the Spanish twat. Relying solely on Suarez to hit the ground running was two dangerous a gamble and we needed to hedge our bets by signing 2 strikers. We may as well have got someone we wanted i.e. Carroll rather than a stopgap whilst we wait for the Summer transfer window to get Carroll as well.

Carroll might have been the wrong person (too early to say), but we signed him at the right time.
[/quote]

He was injured when we signed him though, and didn't make his debut until March. He went on to make a total of 8 appearances in all competitions, and played very little part in our revival. We could easily have waited until summer.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

I'd say that he hindered our revival!