Are we putting all our eggs in the Carroll basket?

[spider-Neil]

my personal opinion is at home you have quick mobile strikers up front and then you bring on the tall option late in the game if you've failed to break the deadlock in 70 mins.
the tall striker away from home is ideal as you'd hope he will be able to hold up the and relieve pressure when you are under the cosh. basically the tall guy is an option, a string in your bow but with carroll costing THIRTY FIVE MILLION POUNDS STERLING then you've got to play him and further more to have to tailer your team to play to his strengths.

also with carra and skrtel as our centre backs no one is going to convince me the ball is NOT going to be sent long more often than not, put it this way, I'll believe it when I see it.
all that is of course by the by if carroll absolutely lays waste to the league and allows us to win games after game. I go on about flowing attacking football but what I want above all else is WINNING football and if we are winning games with carroll I couldn't give a shit what style of football we play.

 

[Woland]

He's going to be boss next season.

 

[SummerOnions]

[quote author=Krump link=topic=45883.msg1357236#msg1357236 date=1309349981]
He's going to be boss next season.
[/quote]

Is right.

 

[Woland]

Better than that stinking bird turd we burgled Chelsea for 50m for.

He reckons he'll be twice as good for them next season. So we can expect to see 2 goals.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1357235#msg1357235 date=1309349956]
my personal opinion is at home you have quick mobile strikers up front and then you bring on the tall option late in the game if you've failed to break the deadlock in 70 mins.
the tall striker away from home is ideal as you'd hope he will be able to hold up the and relieve pressure when you are under the cosh. basically the tall guy is an option, a string in your bow but with carroll costing THIRTY FIVE MILLION POUNDS STERLING then you've got to play him and further more to have to tailer your team to play to his strengths.

also with carra and skrtel as our centre backs no one is going to convince me the ball is NOT going to be sent long more often than not, put it this way, I'll believe it when I see it.
all that is of course by the by if carroll absolutely lays waste to the league and allows us to win games after game. I go on about flowing attacking football but what I want above all else is WINNING football and if we are winning games with carroll I couldn't give a shit what style of football we play.
[/quote]

I think this is far too simplistic Neil, there have been plenty of games where we've failed to hold the ball up at home and we've invited pressure. I agree that you need pace in the side, but in honesty, it's probably shown itself to be more essential away from home on the break (not that it's not required at home too). Whatever issues we've had in the past over hoofing it, it's being massively exaggerated here and it's something we've consciously tried to cut down under Kenny. Sometimes it's required, you can't say there's NO place for it because sometimes it's the best form of defence in certain situations, but it's been a long time since we've looked clueless and hit hopeful balls continuously over the top, we're not playing under Ged, Rafa or Roy now.

Also that last bit about not giving a shit about what football we play would have to be seen to be believed because you continuously over emphasise the less pretty sides of our play. Carragher and Skrtel are far from the most elegant of footballers, but they're not hoof-merchants with no clue how to pass the ball 10 yards either.

You're simplifying and pigeon-holing Carroll's role and what you 'think' he'll end up doing. Anyone who's watched him for Newcastle would tell you that he's reasonably quick, has good feet, good awareness and can pass the ball. You make it sound like we've got a £35m Kevin fucking Davies on our hands.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=Krump link=topic=45883.msg1357236#msg1357236 date=1309349981]
He's going to be boss next season.
[/quote]

I just can't see it happening for him.
I would love you be right on this one though.

 

[Mamma Mia]

[quote author=Krump link=topic=45883.msg1357236#msg1357236 date=1309349981]
He's going to be boss next season.
[/quote]

Yep. Luis will overshadow him to an extent but I reckon he's gonna be great.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=45883.msg1357253#msg1357253 date=1309351497]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1357235#msg1357235 date=1309349956]
my personal opinion is at home you have quick mobile strikers up front and then you bring on the tall option late in the game if you've failed to break the deadlock in 70 mins.
the tall striker away from home is ideal as you'd hope he will be able to hold up the and relieve pressure when you are under the cosh. basically the tall guy is an option, a string in your bow but with carroll costing THIRTY FIVE MILLION POUNDS STERLING then you've got to play him and further more to have to tailer your team to play to his strengths.

also with carra and skrtel as our centre backs no one is going to convince me the ball is NOT going to be sent long more often than not, put it this way, I'll believe it when I see it.
all that is of course by the by if carroll absolutely lays waste to the league and allows us to win games after game. I go on about flowing attacking football but what I want above all else is WINNING football and if we are winning games with carroll I couldn't give a shit what style of football we play.
[/quote]

I think this is far too simplistic Neil, there have been plenty of games where we've failed to hold the ball up at home and we've invited pressure. I agree that you need pace in the side, but in honesty, it's probably shown itself to be more essential away from home on the break (not that it's not required at home too). Whatever issues we've had in the past over hoofing it, it's being massively exaggerated here and it's something we've consciously tried to cut down under Kenny. Sometimes it's required, you can't say there's NO place for it because sometimes it's the best form of defence in certain situations, but it's been a long time since we've looked clueless and hit hopeful balls continuously over the top, we're not playing under Ged, Rafa or Roy now.

Also that last bit about not giving a shit about what football we play would have to be seen to be believed because you continuously over emphasise the less pretty sides of our play. Carragher and Skrtel are far from the most elegant of footballers, but they're not hoof-merchants with no clue how to pass the ball 10 yards either.

You're simplifying and pigeon-holing Carroll's role and what you 'think' he'll end up doing. Anyone who's watched him for Newcastle would tell you that he's reasonably quick, has good feet, good awareness and can pass the ball. You make it sound like we've got a £35m Kevin fucking Davies on our hands.
[/quote]

I was talking about the big target man as a concept rather than carroll's actual ability as a player.
also in regards to us keeping the ball on the ground, we sent it long with crouch (who was TERRIBLE in the air and much better on the deck) and sent it long with heskey, admitedly this happened under gh and rafa but I remain unconvinced it wont happen under kenny, our defenders are too eager to get rid.

 

[The Slugmonster]

[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45883.msg1357265#msg1357265 date=1309353045]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=45883.msg1357236#msg1357236 date=1309349981]
He's going to be boss next season.
[/quote]

Yep. Luis will overshadow him to an extent but I reckon he's gonna be great.
[/quote]

If we can get 40 goals between the of them it'll be fantastic!!

 

[grjt]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1357275#msg1357275 date=1309353929]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=45883.msg1357253#msg1357253 date=1309351497]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=45883.msg1357235#msg1357235 date=1309349956]
my personal opinion is at home you have quick mobile strikers up front and then you bring on the tall option late in the game if you've failed to break the deadlock in 70 mins.
the tall striker away from home is ideal as you'd hope he will be able to hold up the and relieve pressure when you are under the cosh. basically the tall guy is an option, a string in your bow but with carroll costing THIRTY FIVE MILLION POUNDS STERLING then you've got to play him and further more to have to tailer your team to play to his strengths.

also with carra and skrtel as our centre backs no one is going to convince me the ball is NOT going to be sent long more often than not, put it this way, I'll believe it when I see it.
all that is of course by the by if carroll absolutely lays waste to the league and allows us to win games after game. I go on about flowing attacking football but what I want above all else is WINNING football and if we are winning games with carroll I couldn't give a shit what style of football we play.
[/quote]

I think this is far too simplistic Neil, there have been plenty of games where we've failed to hold the ball up at home and we've invited pressure. I agree that you need pace in the side, but in honesty, it's probably shown itself to be more essential away from home on the break (not that it's not required at home too). Whatever issues we've had in the past over hoofing it, it's being massively exaggerated here and it's something we've consciously tried to cut down under Kenny. Sometimes it's required, you can't say there's NO place for it because sometimes it's the best form of defence in certain situations, but it's been a long time since we've looked clueless and hit hopeful balls continuously over the top, we're not playing under Ged, Rafa or Roy now.

Also that last bit about not giving a shit about what football we play would have to be seen to be believed because you continuously over emphasise the less pretty sides of our play. Carragher and Skrtel are far from the most elegant of footballers, but they're not hoof-merchants with no clue how to pass the ball 10 yards either.

You're simplifying and pigeon-holing Carroll's role and what you 'think' he'll end up doing. Anyone who's watched him for Newcastle would tell you that he's reasonably quick, has good feet, good awareness and can pass the ball. You make it sound like we've got a £35m Kevin fucking Davies on our hands.
[/quote]

I was talking about the big target man a concept rather than carroll's actual ability as a player.
also in regards to us keeping the ball on the ground, we sent it long with crouch (who was TERRIBLE in the air and much better on the deck) and sent it long with heskey, admitedly this happened under gh and rafa but I remain unconvinced it wont happen under kenny, our defenders are too eager to get rid.
[/quote]

Yep, Carras and Skrtels propensity to play a short, intricate passing game has been effected by the signing of Carroll.

Im worried that now we have signed the big man, all they seem to want to do is hoof it forwards...........

 

[Mamma Mia]

[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=45883.msg1357279#msg1357279 date=1309354265]
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45883.msg1357265#msg1357265 date=1309353045]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=45883.msg1357236#msg1357236 date=1309349981]
He's going to be boss next season.
[/quote]

Yep. Luis will overshadow him to an extent but I reckon he's gonna be great.
[/quote]

If we can get 40 goals between the of them it'll be fantastic!!
[/quote]

I think we'll have goals coming from almost everywhere next season. Lucas may even get one.

I just feel that the way we've been creating chances thus far under Kenny, all we needed was a front man who could show real desire and aggression to get on the end of things. I reckon Carroll will be great for us even when he's not scoring. He's a defenders nightmare, and with Luis and a hopefully rejuvenated Stevie in the team, I'm pretty excited.

I don't share the concern on this one.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45883.msg1357288#msg1357288 date=1309354750]
[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=45883.msg1357279#msg1357279 date=1309354265]
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45883.msg1357265#msg1357265 date=1309353045]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=45883.msg1357236#msg1357236 date=1309349981]
He's going to be boss next season.
[/quote]

Yep. Luis will overshadow him to an extent but I reckon he's gonna be great.
[/quote]

If we can get 40 goals between the of them it'll be fantastic!!
[/quote]

I think we'll have goals coming from almost everywhere next season. Lucas may even get one.

I just feel that the way we've been creating chances thus far under Kenny, all we needed was a front man who could show real desire and aggression to get on the end of things. I reckon Carroll will be great for us even when he's not scoring. He's a defenders nightmare, and with Luis and a hopefully rejuvenated Stevie in the team, I'm pretty excited.

I don't share the concern on this one.
[/quote]

to be clear, my concerns aren't with carroll but how the team is set up when playing to his strengths.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Umm, I was referring to the thread title and general point, not your posts specifically. Same thing though, I don't think it's actually a worry and I don't think it will happen to any significant degree.

 

[mark1975]

There are alot of strengths within the team at the end of the day and if you look out there these days, we're not heavily reliant on one player.

When our talisman (Gerrard, Torres, Owen, whoever) was absent in the past, we'd generally lack a plan B and our initiative was to hoof it up there, when Gerrard played alongside Crouch regularly we didn't play hoofball, we gave a fair few sides a game of football, not to the degree we've shown we can do it under Kenny sometimes, but it wasn't Bolton-esque either, I think when our lack of creativity was exemplified that's when we looked a bit clueless starting attacks. That's not really the case now though with the likes of Johnson, Meireles, Gerrard, Kuyt and Suarez. All look for the ball and want it, rather than passing it off and going for a hit and hope ball, they influence each other and make each other play. Adding others to that, even if they can play to Carroll's more 'obvious' strengths, can only compound that, surely? Because I doubt whether any of the aforementioned would be happy to stand there and watch that going on. And as said, it's not just one player that we're talking about these days, we've got a few who are capable of winning a game.

 

[spider-Neil]

to go further, when heskey first joined I wasn't pleased, I wasn't impressed when he was at leicester, but hey, management know best. I was SO impressed with him in his first few months and not just the goals, his strength, his ability to hold up the ball, and then over time (after 2001) aimless punt after aimless punt was hoofed up to him and the guy just turned into a frigging donkey. sure, he was gutless and didn't have a striker's instinct but we didn't help him with the service we gave him.

how many people said crouch was great on the ground, like EVERYONE and yet, hoof, hoof, hoof, like crouch was some demon in the air (I thought his heading ability for one so tall was/is shoocking). a tall striker presents too tempting a target for defenders who aren't confident brining the ball out of defence and unfortunately we don't have alonso to pick the ball off their toes and distribute the ball for them.

when/if carroll has an extended run in the side and we are playing confident, controlled passing football despite having a huge target man up front, I will hold my hands up and say I was wrong and in this instance I'm hoping I am wrong.

 

[Avmenon]

I actually think most points in this thread are correct.

To say that having Carroll in the team will inevitably lead to a 'big man little man' combo in all instances is flawed; but there is no question that we're probably going to play differently with Carroll in the side as opposed to when we're presumaby playing a more mobile trio of Suarez, Ming Kuyt/whomever.

This is fine in itself since it gives us options, and having several formations and styles to be interchanged in between (or even during) matches might be very lethal provided our players are well drilled in both and find both seamless. A big ask maybe, but one that might prove very effective.

The problem is Carroll's pricetag is going to make him difficult to bench when he's fit and there is a danger that more fluid passing approaches might not be practiced as often as we'd like and well, basically he would be our 35 million Kevin Davies (or maybe Jan Kohler)

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=Gary25 link=topic=45883.msg1356015#msg1356015 date=1309179757]
Not really, no. Kenny had been chasing Adam before we signed Carroll, unfortunately he didn't get his man but now it looks like he will.

With Downing, it's obvious we need a proper winger...someone who can take players on, whip in a cross and be a goal-threat.
Whilst i'm not Downing's biggest fan, he's more than capable of giving us just that.

Of course Adam and Downing should be able to bring out the best in Carroll, but i certainly wouldn't say we're putting all our eggs in the Carroll basket, far from it. We've needed a ball player in midfield ever since Xabi left us, and we've needed a productive winger for god knows how long.
[/quote]

Good post. The emphasis on Carroll probably only exists in the media.

As Gary says, we need these sorts of players Carroll or not.