Are we on the brink ?

[Sunny]

So. Are we? Are we on the brink of massive decline as a club? We're performing poorly. Competition is harder than ever. Teams all around us are getting investment and appear to be improving yet we have owners who can't get along, refuse to part with their money (or the truth) and seem only in it for what they can unreallistically squeeze profit wise out of the club. Our manager buys poorly, appears stubborn and does not seem able to change his tactics. We're going to struggle to qualify for the Champions League - it's highly unlikely this season. We could lose our top players because of it. We may not of course. And Lady Luck seems to have completely deserted us.

Or is this season simply a blip ? A blip in Rafas masterplan ? In the owners long term strategy ? Are we too big a club to decline really sharply ? What can be done to put it right ?

Two things have to happen in my book. A new manager is becoming increasingly obvious. Rafa - and I will always thank him and wish him well - seems unable to turn things around. It echoes of Houlliers last days but perhaps not that drastic just yet. He has turn around our form rapidly between now and end of the season and I just can't see it happening. On that basis, he should go. If we don't hit top six - he's out regardless.

More importantly, we need new owners. Either single owners or a consortium that actually can communicate with each other. Whatever the make up , they need to have the financial clout that the Yanks simply do not possess. They will not take us forward and their greed and lies is throttling our development as a club.

The next 18 months is key to our future as a club. What would you do to put it right?

 

[manwithnoname]

Sack Benitez, install Mourinho and give him £100m to buy three or four top players who can actually run quickly.

He'll immediately get rid of cunts like Insua and Lucas, and we'll be laughing.

Not sure where the £100m will come from, but anyway.

 

[Piedro]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38670.msg1043947#msg1043947 date=1264594874]


Not sure where the £100m will come from, but anyway.
[/quote]

Gate receipts from the new stadium!

Silly.

 

[the_khl]

Impossible to say really.

I do however still believe. In the club, the manager and the players. (Most of them at least).

What's all important now is to win against Bolton come Sat and then manage to build on that win with another win the next week. Football is simple isn't it?

Somehow I reckon it would be in everyones best interest not to draw to many conclusions at this stage. The players and the manager and the staff still have time to redeem themselves somehow, turn things around, although the big turn once again now lies 'in the next Season' [copyright hopelessly romantic Liverfools like meself].

I've said elsewhere that for me 4th or better equals another year to the gaffer. One or two star-additions to an already rather good-looking (on paper and when fit) squad come Summer and he can have yet a go at the title. (Should we then end up 2nd whilst winning the ChL I'd be pleased enough to hand him yet another year I reckon).

It's all about progress and this Season has got to be Rafa's last fluke if he is to keep his job.

 

[pl@yerone]

Are we on the brink? Yes

What would I change? The only conclusion I can come to is the manager.

I think the ownership issue has been a convenient distraction to Rafa's managerial performances and spending in the transfer market.

The usual players have been mentioned a million times but if you look at Babel and Keane alone that is £30-£35 million. If that money had been spent wisely that is potentially 1 or 2 players who could make a difference in times like this or when we were chasing the title last year. I'm all for giving managers time but there should be clear signs of constant progress in performances, results and playing staff. There hasn't been.

Rafa has wanted, and gained, more control over the football side. The academy is in a constant state of flux and we have a steady stream of youngsters in and out of the club who never get a chance even in cup competitions.

My biggest issue is attitude. I have become convinced something is wrong inside the dressing room just due to players body language. The only players who appear to care on the field at the moment are Kuyt and Lucas. Neither of which are 'game changing' players. Gerrard, Carragher and Torres can change a game. None of them look like they are happy. I will forgive Torres due to the frustration with injuries.

There seems to be a resigned acceptance of our fate on the pitch. The best comparison is a team like the All Blacks. Every time they go out they expect to win. Every player and every supporter has that arrogance that they are the best and will crush anybody who stands up to them. Thats what we need. The feeling that anyone who comes to Anfield will lose. The feeling that on a shitty Wednesday in Stoke we will win because we are Liverpool and we just do.

I dont think Rafa is the man to give us that. We need someone to grab the players, the owners and the fans by the balls and take us back to what makes us the most successful club in England.

 

[Sunny]

Good post. Welcome to the forum Pl@yerone

 

[Jack D Rips]

If Rafa cant see, (or is to stubborn to admit) that playing Mascher and Lucas together, especially against a team 17th in the league, is a waste of time, then we are royally fucked if he stays in charge.

We will continue to win the odd game but mostly we will go out to not lose games rather than to win them.

Last night we needed some creativity and the little we had was left on the bench.

To me its very simple. Rafa = 7th or worse. 7th or worse = players leaving and none coming. Players leaving and none coming = falling further down the league.

Im sorry to say that with Rafa in charge then yes we are on the brink

 

[manwithnoname]

The only players who appear to care on the field at the moment are Kuyt and Lucas. Neither of which are 'game changing' players.

Reina? Carragher? Mascherano?

 

[pl@yerone]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38670.msg1043961#msg1043961 date=1264596521]

The only players who appear to care on the field at the moment are Kuyt and Lucas. Neither of which are 'game changing' players.

Reina? Carragher? Mascherano?
[/quote]

You're right Reina does.

I dont feel Carra and Mascherano have as much as previous seasons. Arguably they went over the top like when he got sent off at OT.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38670.msg1043947#msg1043947 date=1264594874]
Sack Benitez, install Mourinho and give him £100m to buy three or four top players who can actually run quickly.

He'll immediately get rid of cunts like Insua and Lucas, and we'll be laughing.

Not sure where the £100m will come from, but anyway.
[/quote]
You are aware that we're not building an athletes team for the olympics right?

Don't get me wrong I like my players fast but most importantly in mind and on the first 2 or 3 yards.

PS Which fast players has Mourinho brought in btw? None of Ferreira, Asier del Horno, Carvalho, Juliano Belletti, Bosingwa, Ben Haim, Malouda, Ivanovic, Alexei Smertin, Joe Cole, Obi Mikel, Essien, Duff, Alex, Drogba, Mancienne or Robben strikes me as lightning fast like e.g. Babel or Torres.

Ashley Cole perhaps? And Kalou?

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38670.msg1043961#msg1043961 date=1264596521]
Reina? Carragher? Mascherano?
[/quote]

I agree all three have shown a very good attitude throughout our tribulations. As stand-in captain, I think Carragher has been more influential than Gerrard and he played a big part in our win against Spurs.

To answer the original question - are we on the brink? Well, we might be. Look at O'Leary's Leeds United when they had a spectacular plunge down through the divisions, mainly caused by spending money unwisely. Suggested solution - get some new owners with deep pockets and change the manager for somebody really good with a good track record in the summer.

 

[manwithnoname]

You are aware that we're not building an athletes team for the olympics right?

Don't get me wrong I like my players fast but most importantly in mind and on the first 2 or 3 yards.

PS Which fast players has Mourinho brought in btw? None of Ferreira, Asier del Horno, Carvalho, Juliano Belletti, Bosingwa, Ben Haim, Malouda, Ivanovic, Alexei Smertin, Joe Cole, Obi Mikel, Essien, Duff, Alex, Drogba, Mancienne or Robben strikes me as lightning fast like e.g. Babel or Torres.

Ashley Cole perhaps? And Kalou?

Are you trying to say we don't need more pace in our squad?

As for your list of bollocks, leaving to one side the fact that Mourinho didn't sign many of those players, let me kick to fucking shreds the rest of it:

Essien, Bosingwa, Carvalho, Alex, Drogba and Robben are ALL fucking quick.

No team in Premiership history has lined up with a slower team than that which took the field against Wolves last night.

NOT EVER.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043951#msg1043951 date=1264595278]
The players and the manager and the staff still have time to redeem themselves somehow
[/quote]

No, they don't. We're out of every (meaningful) competition and are playing some of the worst football I can remember from a Liverpool team. If we manage to scrape fourth, the season will still be a complete failure.

Last season aside, Rafa's tenure has been characterized by poor starts and positive finishes. Positive finishes have a tendency to breed hope, in that Rafa might start a new season as he finished the last. Six years on however, we're still seeing the same mistakes, the same stubbornness and inflexibility, and the same baffling line-ups that we saw in his first season. And we have one of the slowest teams in the Premiership. Rafa has not learned how to conquer this league, and doesn't look like doing it any time soon.

Provided there is a suitable replacement (and I don't think we'd be short of applicants), he needs to be moved on regardless of what happens in the latter part of the season. It's been an unmitigated disaster.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38670.msg1043966#msg1043966 date=1264597629]

You are aware that we're not building an athletes team for the olympics right?

Don't get me wrong I like my players fast but most importantly in mind and on the first 2 or 3 yards.

PS Which fast players has Mourinho brought in btw? None of Ferreira, Asier del Horno, Carvalho, Juliano Belletti, Bosingwa, Ben Haim, Malouda, Ivanovic, Alexei Smertin, Joe Cole, Obi Mikel, Essien, Duff, Alex, Drogba, Mancienne or Robben strikes me as lightning fast like e.g. Babel or Torres.

Ashley Cole perhaps? And Kalou?

Are you trying to say we don't need more pace in our squad?

As for your list of bollocks, leaving to one side the fact that Mourinho didn't sign many of those players, let me kick to fucking shreds the rest of it:

Essien, Bosingwa, Carvalho, Alex, Drogba and Robben are ALL fucking quick.

No team in Premiership history has lined up with a slower team than that which took the field against Wolves last night.

NOT EVER.
[/quote]
I don't see neither of Essien, Bosingwa, Alex or Carvalho as 'fucking quick' but there you go.

Drogba isn't as quick as Torres either and Robben's not anywhere near as fast as Babel.

Anyways I think we need pace around the pitch but last night wasn't about the lack of pace for me. Much more so the sheer lack of gut and the ability to string four passes together.

PS Fair play, it was a rather error-prone list... Ivanovic, Joe Cole, Duff and Ben Haim wasn't Mourinho's buys.

 

[keniget]

It does feel like we are and it's getting harder and harder to feel positive about the future.

We need massive investment in the squad come the summer so that whatever happens this season, we can bounce back straight away. Even if we do miss out on the CL, if players see us making a real statement of intent in the transfer market, they'll want to come to us.

The problem is we're not going to get any money.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043975#msg1043975 date=1264598643]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043951#msg1043951 date=1264595278]
The players and the manager and the staff still have time to redeem themselves somehow
[/quote]

No, they don't. We're out of every (meaningful) competition and are playing some of the worst football I can remember from a Liverpool team. If we manage to scrape fourth, the season will still be a complete failure.

Last season aside, Rafa's tenure has been characterized by poor starts and positive finishes. Positive finishes have a tendency to breed hope, in that Rafa might start a new season as he finished the last. Six years on however, we're still seeing the same mistakes, the same stubbornness and inflexibility, and the same baffling line-ups that we saw in his first season. And we have one of the slowest teams in the Premiership. Rafa has not learned how to conquer this league, and doesn't look like doing it any time soon.

Provided there is a suitable replacement (and I don't think we'd be short of applicants), he needs to be moved on regardless of what happens in the latter part of the season. It's been an unmitigated disaster.
[/quote]
The Season will surely only be a complete failure if we fails to qualify for the ChL?

And whether he's a good starter or a good finisher is irrelevant as I see it. All that matters is the ammount of trophies and points won in the end.

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38670.msg1043947#msg1043947 date=1264594874]
Sack Benitez, install Mourinho and give him £100m to buy three or four top players who can actually run quickly.

He'll immediately get rid of cunts like Insua and Lucas, and we'll be laughing.

Not sure where the £100m will come from, but anyway.
[/quote]

Pace or guile/quality?

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043980#msg1043980 date=1264599113]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043975#msg1043975 date=1264598643]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043951#msg1043951 date=1264595278]
The players and the manager and the staff still have time to redeem themselves somehow
[/quote]

No, they don't. We're out of every (meaningful) competition and are playing some of the worst football I can remember from a Liverpool team. If we manage to scrape fourth, the season will still be a complete failure.

Last season aside, Rafa's tenure has been characterized by poor starts and positive finishes. Positive finishes have a tendency to breed hope, in that Rafa might start a new season as he finished the last. Six years on however, we're still seeing the same mistakes, the same stubbornness and inflexibility, and the same baffling line-ups that we saw in his first season. And we have one of the slowest teams in the Premiership. Rafa has not learned how to conquer this league, and doesn't look like doing it any time soon.

Provided there is a suitable replacement (and I don't think we'd be short of applicants), he needs to be moved on regardless of what happens in the latter part of the season. It's been an unmitigated disaster.
[/quote]
The Season will surely only be a complete failure if we fails to qualify for the ChL?

And whether he's a good starter or a good finisher is irrelevant as I see it. All that matters is the ammount of trophies and points won in the end.
[/quote]

So you agree that he should go, then?

 

[casser]

No team in Premiership history has lined up with a slower team than that which took the field against Wolves last night.

NOT EVER.
[/quote]


Blackburn Team 1993/94

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043982#msg1043982 date=1264599801]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043980#msg1043980 date=1264599113]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043975#msg1043975 date=1264598643]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043951#msg1043951 date=1264595278]
The players and the manager and the staff still have time to redeem themselves somehow
[/quote]

No, they don't. We're out of every (meaningful) competition and are playing some of the worst football I can remember from a Liverpool team. If we manage to scrape fourth, the season will still be a complete failure.

Last season aside, Rafa's tenure has been characterized by poor starts and positive finishes. Positive finishes have a tendency to breed hope, in that Rafa might start a new season as he finished the last. Six years on however, we're still seeing the same mistakes, the same stubbornness and inflexibility, and the same baffling line-ups that we saw in his first season. And we have one of the slowest teams in the Premiership. Rafa has not learned how to conquer this league, and doesn't look like doing it any time soon.

Provided there is a suitable replacement (and I don't think we'd be short of applicants), he needs to be moved on regardless of what happens in the latter part of the season. It's been an unmitigated disaster.
[/quote]
The Season will surely only be a complete failure if we fails to qualify for the ChL?

And whether he's a good starter or a good finisher is irrelevant as I see it. All that matters is the ammount of trophies and points won in the end.
[/quote]

So you agree that he should go, then?
[/quote]
Not if we get enough points to secure 4th, no. Then I'd give him another year to win us trophies.

We could still end up with a 4th spot and a trophy this Season mind. I know the Europa League counts for close to nothing but it would be a trophy nonetheless. And having read somewhere that last years finalst actually manage to scrape as many money together as teams beeing knocked out of the Quarters in the Champions League that wouldn't be to shabby either, everything taken into consideration.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=casser link=topic=38670.msg1043987#msg1043987 date=1264600184]


No team in Premiership history has lined up with a slower team than that which took the field against Wolves last night.

NOT EVER.
[/quote]


Blackburn Team 1993/94
[/quote]
The year they won with Sherwood & Co.?

 

[Paddy]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043989#msg1043989 date=1264600366]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043982#msg1043982 date=1264599801]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043980#msg1043980 date=1264599113]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043975#msg1043975 date=1264598643]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043951#msg1043951 date=1264595278]
The players and the manager and the staff still have time to redeem themselves somehow
[/quote]

No, they don't. We're out of every (meaningful) competition and are playing some of the worst football I can remember from a Liverpool team. If we manage to scrape fourth, the season will still be a complete failure.

Last season aside, Rafa's tenure has been characterized by poor starts and positive finishes. Positive finishes have a tendency to breed hope, in that Rafa might start a new season as he finished the last. Six years on however, we're still seeing the same mistakes, the same stubbornness and inflexibility, and the same baffling line-ups that we saw in his first season. And we have one of the slowest teams in the Premiership. Rafa has not learned how to conquer this league, and doesn't look like doing it any time soon.

Provided there is a suitable replacement (and I don't think we'd be short of applicants), he needs to be moved on regardless of what happens in the latter part of the season. It's been an unmitigated disaster.
[/quote]
The Season will surely only be a complete failure if we fails to qualify for the ChL?

And whether he's a good starter or a good finisher is irrelevant as I see it. All that matters is the ammount of trophies and points won in the end.
[/quote]

So you agree that he should go, then?
[/quote]
Not if we get enough points to secure 4th, no. Then I'd give him another year to win us trophies.

We could still end up with a 4th spot and a trophy this Season mind. I know the Europa League counts for close to nothing but it would be a trophy nonetheless. And having read somewhere that last years finalst actually manage to scrape as many money together as teams beeing knocked out of the Quarters in the Champions League that wouldn't be to shabby either, everything taken into consideration.
[/quote]

Your Mum's so fat, when she fell down the stairs I thought EastEnders was starting.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=Paddy link=topic=38670.msg1043994#msg1043994 date=1264600492]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043989#msg1043989 date=1264600366]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043982#msg1043982 date=1264599801]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043980#msg1043980 date=1264599113]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38670.msg1043975#msg1043975 date=1264598643]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043951#msg1043951 date=1264595278]
The players and the manager and the staff still have time to redeem themselves somehow
[/quote]

No, they don't. We're out of every (meaningful) competition and are playing some of the worst football I can remember from a Liverpool team. If we manage to scrape fourth, the season will still be a complete failure.

Last season aside, Rafa's tenure has been characterized by poor starts and positive finishes. Positive finishes have a tendency to breed hope, in that Rafa might start a new season as he finished the last. Six years on however, we're still seeing the same mistakes, the same stubbornness and inflexibility, and the same baffling line-ups that we saw in his first season. And we have one of the slowest teams in the Premiership. Rafa has not learned how to conquer this league, and doesn't look like doing it any time soon.

Provided there is a suitable replacement (and I don't think we'd be short of applicants), he needs to be moved on regardless of what happens in the latter part of the season. It's been an unmitigated disaster.
[/quote]
The Season will surely only be a complete failure if we fails to qualify for the ChL?

And whether he's a good starter or a good finisher is irrelevant as I see it. All that matters is the ammount of trophies and points won in the end.
[/quote]

So you agree that he should go, then?
[/quote]
Not if we get enough points to secure 4th, no. Then I'd give him another year to win us trophies.

We could still end up with a 4th spot and a trophy this Season mind. I know the Europa League counts for close to nothing but it would be a trophy nonetheless. And having read somewhere that last years finalst actually manage to scrape as many money together as teams beeing knocked out of the Quarters in the Champions League that wouldn't be to shabby either, everything taken into consideration.
[/quote]

Your Mum's so fat, when she fell down the stairs I thought EastEnders was starting.
[/quote]

That doesn't work on any level

 

[TheBunnyman]

The next two years will be crucial, that's for sure. City's wealth will almost certainly see them emerge as title contenders, which means one of last season's top 4 will not make the CL on a regular basis. Last season, that team looked like being Arsenal; this season it's us. A new manager could still turn that round, but UEFA's upcoming rules about the amount of debt a club can carry could well prove very bad news for both us and United.

The truly worrying thing is how thin our squad looks: unless quite a few of our youngsters make it through to the first team, we're going to need to do quite a lot of rebuilding - and with our current owners and the current financial situation, we aren't going to have the cash to do it properly.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043976#msg1043976 date=1264598686]

I don't see neither of Essien, Bosingwa, Alex or Carvalho as 'fucking quick' but there you go.

Drogba isn't as quick as Torres either and Robben's not anywhere near as fast as Babel.


[/quote]

Comparing all of their players to our couple of exceptionally quick players hardly works does it?

Just because we have one fast player (Babel is not normally 'in the side' strictly speaking) it doesn't make up for the lack of pace throughout the rest of the side.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

No.

I do think we are going to go through a period of drastic change though over the next 6 months.

1. I expect us to have a new manager come the start of the season.

2. A new investor/owner

3. Work to begin on our future home

As long as 2&3 happen then i'm convinced that we'll be on the right track.

"In Purslow i trust"

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38670.msg1044001#msg1044001 date=1264601289]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38670.msg1043976#msg1043976 date=1264598686]

I don't see neither of Essien, Bosingwa, Alex or Carvalho as 'fucking quick' but there you go.

Drogba isn't as quick as Torres either and Robben's not anywhere near as fast as Babel.


[/quote]

Comparing all of their players to our couple of exceptionally quick players hardly works does it?

Just because we have one fast player (Babel is not normally 'in the side' strictly speaking) it doesn't make up for the lack of pace throughout the rest of the side.
[/quote]
Johnson and Gerrard and to some extent even Skrtel and Agger aren't exactly slow players either. I don't think it's the main problem in our team right now, the lack of pace. More so the lack of quality.

 

[spider-Neil]

you have to ask yourself how it was possible to play such sintillating football at the end of last season?
rafa needs to ask himself what is the difference then compared to now. seriously, is replacing lucas for alonso have THAT much of a hit in regards to style of play, desire etc. if that is indeed the case than alonso was the most important player in the entire squad because we have pretty much gone to pieces in his absense.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38670.msg1044026#msg1044026 date=1264603843]
you have to ask yourself how it was possible to play such sintillating football at the end of last season?
rafa needs to ask himself what is the difference then compared to now. seriously, is replacing lucas for alonso have THAT much of a hit in regards to style of play, desire etc. if that is indeed the case than alonso was the most important player in the entire squad because we have pretty much gone to pieces in his absense.
[/quote]

Someone, possibly Bilko, made a throw-away post about our form yesterday I think, along the lines of "if the defenders had someone who dropped deep to pick up the ball, then had the brains, ability and bravery to turn around and take the ball/pass the ball forwards, maybe they wouldn't hoof it so often.

If they pass it to the Invisible Cunt, they know it will just come straight back to them

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38670.msg1044027#msg1044027 date=1264604242]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38670.msg1044026#msg1044026 date=1264603843]
you have to ask yourself how it was possible to play such sintillating football at the end of last season?
rafa needs to ask himself what is the difference then compared to now. seriously, is replacing lucas for alonso have THAT much of a hit in regards to style of play, desire etc. if that is indeed the case than alonso was the most important player in the entire squad because we have pretty much gone to pieces in his absense.
[/quote]

Someone, possibly Bilko, made a throw-away post about our form yesterday I think, along the lines of "if the defenders had someone who dropped deep to pick up the ball, then had the brains, ability and bravery to turn around and take the ball/pass the ball forwards, maybe they wouldn't hoof it so often.

If they pass it to the Invisible Cunt, they know it will just come straight back to them
[/quote]

I was on koptalk for 5 years, YNWA for 2 years and I think the rest of the time I've been here, and by far (BY FAR!!) 'THE' best qoute I read in all that time was (and I qoute) 'all alonso does is pass the ball'