Are we a manager away ? or quality players away ?

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

[/quote]

Fucking hell Avvy!

Nobody has ever said that Rafa hasn't made plenty of mistakes or that his position shouldn't be looked at, but at least try to take on board some of the valid points that are being made by Jexy.

The only managers that have won more trophies than Rafa are the ones that have spent considerably more than him. Can you not see that there is a correlation between what you spend with that of your success on the pitch? Or do you just hope that shouting "we are Liverpool" will be enough?

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=38729.msg1049500#msg1049500 date=1265375637]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

They clung to their crutch, of course.

'THE FUCKING YANKS' argument was always an ace to be played.

But something was missing, wasn't it?

Lo and behold, one of the sharper ones noticed that there was a way to re-phrase the net spend argument to include 'WAGE BILLS AND BUDGET'..and verily, their Emperor was soon restored to his position of pre-eminence.

'Cash spent equals success'?

Maybe, but using what little cash you have to buy shit and then not know to play them equals disaster.
[/quote]

Or better still harp on and on and on about every single mistake the manager ever makes without ever acknowledging the cards he has been asked to play at the table, nor the cards of his opponents.

Suggesting that despite much evidence to the contrary that in some way he has "lost it" or is about to "lose it", ignoring improvements as though they are an inevitable birthright of our beloved club regardless of the current financial reality and fucking atrocious liars/owners.

Impressive victories greeted without any praise just greedy ready acceptance despite the victorys often arriving in places and against teams were teams quite simply do not go and win 4-1 or 4-0.

Relating every single failing or percieved failing both on and of the pitch to be a personal shortcoming of the incumbent manager, justified with a detailed psychological profile of said idiot, regardless of result or performances, whilst all the time hoping, yearning and praying for one of the multitude of clearly far superior managers to be installed forthwith or at the next nearest possible opportuinty ( please god) because they would all jump at the chance to guide us into the promised land, zero net spend or not.

If the manager is shit and wants sacking then I will say so, I don't want Rafa kept in place out of some kind of blind hero worship nor devout loyalty or twisted sense of masochism. I want him in place because he is one of the best managers in the world and will if given the right backing get us where we all want to go or do a fine job trying. Blame the owners or blame the manager?? ffs....

Regardless of whether you think Rafa is shit or not or a bit m'eh he doesnt even deserve to be in the same sentence as them two IMHO.


[/quote]

You're assuming I support the Yanks.

I don't; I think they're liars.

As for '...an inevitable birthright of our beloved club regardless of the current financial reality...', I'm sorry, but this is the exact kind of attitude that we have to stop NOW.

I have praised good performances even if we dont win; and how many of those have we had?

Is it so simple to just blame our owners when so many games see us playing like a bunch of lost Cub Scouts?

I haven't listed some detailed some psychological profile, Molby...just seen the bloody obvious.

Anyway fuck it, any more of this and I'll be accused of hoping we lose to the Bitters this weekend.

 

[Squiggles]

Blowing 27M on Keane and Dossena isn't just a mistake though. It's huge.

Rafa may have less room for error than some of his rivals - that's fair enough. But suggesting he hasn't had adequate resources to build a better squad than this is wholly inaccurate.

Drag up a list of all the players Benitez has signed for us. I suspect only 1 in 10 is fit to wear the Liverpool shirt. Maybe less. And that's just not good enough.

Nobody here is suggesting Benitez should be lifting the Premiership. We want a team that can compete for the Premiership and compete for the Champions League. That isn't asking too much.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38729.msg1049526#msg1049526 date=1265379070]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

[/quote]

Fucking hell Avvy!

Nobody has ever said that Rafa hasn't made plenty of mistakes or that his position shouldn't be looked at, but at least try to take on board some of the valid points that are being made by Jexy.

The only managers that have won more trophies than Rafa are the ones that have spent considerably more than him. Can you not see that there is a correlation between what you spend with that of your success on the pitch? Or do you just hope that shouting "we are Liverpool" will be enough?
[/quote]

I agree,Raf..but how much you spend is still less important than WHO you spend it on.

Jexy's 'wage bill' argument doesnt justify those.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38729.msg1049532#msg1049532 date=1265379741]
Blowing 27M on Keane and Dossena isn't just a mistake though. It's huge.

Rafa may have less room for error than some of his rivals - that's fair enough. But suggesting he hasn't had adequate resources to build a better squad than this is wholly inaccurate.

Drag up a list of all the players Benitez has signed for us. I suspect only 1 in 10 is fit to wear the Liverpool shirt. Maybe less. And that's just not good enough.

Nobody here is suggesting Benitez should be lifting the Premiership. We want a team that can compete for the Premiership and compete for the Champions League. That isn't asking too much.
[/quote]

We did compete last year though. This year - we've never replaced Alonso properly, we've been defensively shaky and our attacking options are even less. We should have built on last year not reduced our capacity to perform. It's so fucking frustrating

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049534#msg1049534 date=1265379820]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38729.msg1049526#msg1049526 date=1265379070]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

[/quote]

Fucking hell Avvy!

Nobody has ever said that Rafa hasn't made plenty of mistakes or that his position shouldn't be looked at, but at least try to take on board some of the valid points that are being made by Jexy.

The only managers that have won more trophies than Rafa are the ones that have spent considerably more than him. Can you not see that there is a correlation between what you spend with that of your success on the pitch? Or do you just hope that shouting "we are Liverpool" will be enough?
[/quote]

I agree,Raf..but how much you spend is still less important than WHO you spend it on.

Jexy's 'wage bill' argument doesnt justify those.
[/quote]

Of course it doesn't justify the flop signings that Rafa has made mate, and thats probably one of the main reasons why not a single poster on here considers him unsackable.

After seeing how we've gone so far this season, imo it's the first time that the calls for Rafa to go can be justified. Personally i'd still stick with him because he's proven to be a top manager and his past record with us merits the chance of one more season (+ please take into account the likely alternatives).

 

[Squiggles]

True, but it's also safe to say we're now paying greatly for past mistakes made in the transfer market, not just this summers failure to capitalise. I don't particular blame the owners for not having a positive net-spend this summer. If we can't afford it, we can't afford it. So long as Rafa knew how much he had to spend at the start of the window so he could prioritise his signings then there's no problem. Or if the banks suddenly stepped in and demanded money, then what else can we do? All you ask is the manager gets it right when money is free and available, and in recent times our record has been appalling.

The list of reasons why we're in this mess is as long and doesn't really did listing. I believe Benitez is responsible, in part, for most of them. Others don't. C'est la vie.

Ultimately though, it's a collective failure from all those at the highest levels of the clubs. And there's a decent argument to be had for removing everybody, and that's the real sad thing.

 

[LarryHagman]

If someone turned up and gave Benitez 500 million pounds and he won the League there'd be a queue saying "see, I told you he was a good Manager." Whatever. I could get us 4th with the money he's had. He has had more than enough and wasted it. I wouldn't trust him with the contents of my 2 yr old niece's piggy bank.

I appreciate other teams pay more in wages than us though although I can't remember any of our deals falling through at the last minute as players realise Chelsea might pay 5k a week more. We still have players preferring us. If Chelsea pay that much, and that's the crucial factor, how come Utd don't hand them the Prem title on Day 1, instead of winning it every fuckin year. How come Newcastle got relelgated instead of finishing 5th?

I reckon, may be wrong, in terms of net spend and wages, we are probably 2nd to Chelsea over the last 6 years, maybe 3rd. If not, it's close. The problem is, it's not close on the pitch.

 

[krissr]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38729.msg1049554#msg1049554 date=1265383423]

If someone turned up and gave Benitez 500 million pounds and he won the League there'd be a queue saying "see, I told you he was a good Manager." Whatever. I could get us 4th with the money he's had. He has had more than enough and wasted it. I wouldn't trust him with the contents of my 2 yr old niece's piggy bank.

I appreciate other teams pay more in wages than us though although I can't remember any of our deals falling through at the last minute as players realise Chelsea might pay 5k a week more. We still have players preferring us. If Chelsea pay that much, and that's the crucial factor, how come Utd don't hand them the Prem title on Day 1, instead of winning it every fuckin year. How come Newcastle got relelgated instead of finishing 5th?

I reckon, may be wrong, in terms of net spend and wages, we are probably 2nd to Chelsea over the last 6 years, maybe 3rd. If not, it's close. The problem is, it's not close on the pitch.


[/quote]

And there lies the problem, if can't compete off the pitch how can we expect to compete on it ?

It's clear as daylight, that they can afford playes in the price range we can't afford and also to be able to pay them huge wages too

It's no surprise, eveytime we are linked to Villa, Aguero, Sylva and players of that price range, it's said that we actually can't afford them

Am sure we would see a diffirent Liverpool if Rafa was allowed to buy 2 or 3 20m-30m players in the summer, because am pretty sure we would be in alot better position than we are now

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=krissr link=topic=38729.msg1049556#msg1049556 date=1265384037]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38729.msg1049554#msg1049554 date=1265383423]

If someone turned up and gave Benitez 500 million pounds and he won the League there'd be a queue saying "see, I told you he was a good Manager." Whatever. I could get us 4th with the money he's had. He has had more than enough and wasted it. I wouldn't trust him with the contents of my 2 yr old niece's piggy bank.

I appreciate other teams pay more in wages than us though although I can't remember any of our deals falling through at the last minute as players realise Chelsea might pay 5k a week more. We still have players preferring us. If Chelsea pay that much, and that's the crucial factor, how come Utd don't hand them the Prem title on Day 1, instead of winning it every fuckin year. How come Newcastle got relelgated instead of finishing 5th?

I reckon, may be wrong, in terms of net spend and wages, we are probably 2nd to Chelsea over the last 6 years, maybe 3rd. If not, it's close. The problem is, it's not close on the pitch.


[/quote]

And there lies the problem, if can't compete off the pitch how can we expect to compete on it ?

It's clear as daylight, that they can afford playes in the price range we can't afford and also to be able to pay them huge wages too

It's no surprise, eveytime we are linked to Villa, Aguero, Sylva and players of that price range, it's said that we actually can't afford them

Am sure we would see a diffirent Liverpool if Rafa was allowed to buy 2 or 3 20m-30m players in the summer, because am pretty sure we would be in alot better position than we are now
[/quote]

We finished above Chelsea last year, despite their wage bill.

 

[krissr]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38729.msg1049558#msg1049558 date=1265384340]
[quote author=krissr link=topic=38729.msg1049556#msg1049556 date=1265384037]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=38729.msg1049554#msg1049554 date=1265383423]

If someone turned up and gave Benitez 500 million pounds and he won the League there'd be a queue saying "see, I told you he was a good Manager." Whatever. I could get us 4th with the money he's had. He has had more than enough and wasted it. I wouldn't trust him with the contents of my 2 yr old niece's piggy bank.

I appreciate other teams pay more in wages than us though although I can't remember any of our deals falling through at the last minute as players realise Chelsea might pay 5k a week more. We still have players preferring us. If Chelsea pay that much, and that's the crucial factor, how come Utd don't hand them the Prem title on Day 1, instead of winning it every fuckin year. How come Newcastle got relelgated instead of finishing 5th?

I reckon, may be wrong, in terms of net spend and wages, we are probably 2nd to Chelsea over the last 6 years, maybe 3rd. If not, it's close. The problem is, it's not close on the pitch.


[/quote]

And there lies the problem, if can't compete off the pitch how can we expect to compete on it ?

It's clear as daylight, that they can afford playes in the price range we can't afford and also to be able to pay them huge wages too

It's no surprise, eveytime we are linked to Villa, Aguero, Sylva and players of that price range, it's said that we actually can't afford them

Am sure we would see a different Liverpool if Rafa was allowed to buy 2 or 3 20m-30m players in the summer, because am pretty sure we would be in alot better position than we are now
[/quote]

We finished above Chelsea last year, despite their wage bill.

[/quote]

To sustain a challenge like last year, requires a quality squad and 1st team, which we are short on in both ways, so without a quality squad and 1st team, consistency is hard to keep up, more quality will ultimately give us more consistency to do it season after season

 

[Stulikesdrums]

I don't think our starting XI is that short of quality, Krissr.

Reina
Johnson Agger Carra Insua
Kuyt Mash Aquilani Reira
Gerrard Torres

That's pretty fucking good.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=38729.msg1049590#msg1049590 date=1265387233]
I don't think our starting XI is that short of quality, Krissr.

Reina
Johnson Agger Carra Insua
Kuyt Mash Aquilani Reira
Gerrard Torres

That's pretty fucking good.
[/quote]

Looks good on paper.. but on the field.. we could certainly improve defensively.. neither Insua, Agger or Johnson are commanding at the back.

Also, in the long run, if we're to be competing for top honours. it's one of Kuyt or Riera. We need an injection of pace and skill on the wing.

Finally, Aquilani. On the field, he hasn't had the best of times and there are question marks over whether he's cut out for this league, especially in the centre of midfield. Moving Gerrard there may be what we eventually have to resort to but then that will leave a space unfilled in the team.

In short, 8 out of the 11 are fine. But there still gaps there that need to be filled and a balance (especially at the back and on the wings) that has to be addressed.