S
Squiggles
Guest
A decent striker would have played loads last season, and loads this season.
Spending £12-15M on a striker is perfectly justifiable.
Spending £12-15M on a striker is perfectly justifiable.
Are we a manager away ? or quality players away ?
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[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047338#msg1047338 date=1265006614]
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38729.msg1047333#msg1047333 date=1265001087]
Rafa is slowly developing a phenomenal record at selling player who then go on to meet their potential
[/quote]
such as?
[/quote]
*waits*
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38729.msg1047333#msg1047333 date=1265001087]
Rafa is slowly developing a phenomenal record at selling player who then go on to meet their potential
[/quote]
such as?
[/quote]
*waits*
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=38729.msg1047667#msg1047667 date=1265041518]
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047338#msg1047338 date=1265006614]
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38729.msg1047333#msg1047333 date=1265001087]
Rafa is slowly developing a phenomenal record at selling player who then go on to meet their potential
[/quote]
such as?
[/quote]
*waits*
[/quote]
guthrie
warnock
bellamy
riise
sissoko
kewell
the irony is its difficult to name more for the reason that rafa hangs on to the shit players, and lets go of decent ones.
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047338#msg1047338 date=1265006614]
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38729.msg1047333#msg1047333 date=1265001087]
Rafa is slowly developing a phenomenal record at selling player who then go on to meet their potential
[/quote]
such as?
[/quote]
*waits*
[/quote]
guthrie
warnock
bellamy
riise
sissoko
kewell
the irony is its difficult to name more for the reason that rafa hangs on to the shit players, and lets go of decent ones.
He got most of them
but i'd add
Hammil (why was he sold?)
Arbeloa (he was good for us but it seems he's added some more flair to his game. He is part of a more solid back line than Real Madrid's previous years(and we all know what happened re defense). I don't think Rafa could have kept him here though)
Crouch (would a Crouch Torres partnership really have been impossible to try?)
"We used Crouch and Torres because we knew how Sunderland would mark in defence. They were both playing high, but Torres was sometimes playing between the lines," Benitez said on the club’s official website.
“We knew that it could be a good partnership. One is good in the air the other one is quick. It was a good option for us today.â€
http://www.premiershiplatest.com/news/liverpool-s-benitez-backs-kuyt-explains--557798.html
People who will or could be on the list:
Keane (arguable but he could have been used better for us and he did more for spurs when he went back then you think)
Hyypia(He won't ever be better than he was for LFC. But there was nothing Rafa could have done to keep him here but play our best CB who is now leading a club to glory with a worse team in a league with more potential winners, I hope he gets a leagues medal, which I can't even put _________ Football Club into the same sentence right now...)
Cisse - you could argue he hasn't dont better since he's left but seeing as how he's continued to score and we lack so much pace you can throw it in as a freebie
I'm happy to think one Xabi Alonso may never make it to the list as he won't ever eclipse his 2008-2009 season.
Oh yeah and Ryan Babel can be added to the list already.
but i'd add
Hammil (why was he sold?)
Arbeloa (he was good for us but it seems he's added some more flair to his game. He is part of a more solid back line than Real Madrid's previous years(and we all know what happened re defense). I don't think Rafa could have kept him here though)
Crouch (would a Crouch Torres partnership really have been impossible to try?)
"We used Crouch and Torres because we knew how Sunderland would mark in defence. They were both playing high, but Torres was sometimes playing between the lines," Benitez said on the club’s official website.
“We knew that it could be a good partnership. One is good in the air the other one is quick. It was a good option for us today.â€
http://www.premiershiplatest.com/news/liverpool-s-benitez-backs-kuyt-explains--557798.html
People who will or could be on the list:
Keane (arguable but he could have been used better for us and he did more for spurs when he went back then you think)
Hyypia(He won't ever be better than he was for LFC. But there was nothing Rafa could have done to keep him here but play our best CB who is now leading a club to glory with a worse team in a league with more potential winners, I hope he gets a leagues medal, which I can't even put _________ Football Club into the same sentence right now...)
Cisse - you could argue he hasn't dont better since he's left but seeing as how he's continued to score and we lack so much pace you can throw it in as a freebie
I'm happy to think one Xabi Alonso may never make it to the list as he won't ever eclipse his 2008-2009 season.
Oh yeah and Ryan Babel can be added to the list already.
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38729.msg1047862#msg1047862 date=1265068361]
He got most of them
but i'd add
Hammil (why was he sold?)
Arbeloa (he was good for us but it seems he's added some more flair to his game. He is part of a more solid back line than Real Madrid's previous years(and we all know what happened re defense). I don't think Rafa could have kept him here though)
Crouch (would a Crouch Torres partnership really have been impossible to try?)
"We used Crouch and Torres because we knew how Sunderland would mark in defence. They were both playing high, but Torres was sometimes playing between the lines," Benitez said on the club’s official website.
“We knew that it could be a good partnership. One is good in the air the other one is quick. It was a good option for us today.â€
http://www.premiershiplatest.com/news/liverpool-s-benitez-backs-kuyt-explains--557798.html
People who will or could be on the list:
Keane (arguable but he could have been used better for us and he did more for spurs when he went back then you think)
Hyypia(He won't ever be better than he was for LFC. But there was nothing Rafa could have done to keep him here but play our best CB who is now leading a club to glory with a worse team in a league with more potential winners, I hope he gets a leagues medal, which I can't even put _________ Football Club into the same sentence right now...)
Cisse - you could argue he hasn't dont better since he's left but seeing as how he's continued to score and we lack so much pace you can throw it in as a freebie
I'm happy to think one Xabi Alonso may never make it to the list as he won't ever eclipse his 2008-2009 season.
Oh yeah and Ryan Babel can be added to the list already.
[/quote]
What is this "list' that you speak about Assulin? You mentalist.
He got most of them
but i'd add
Hammil (why was he sold?)
Arbeloa (he was good for us but it seems he's added some more flair to his game. He is part of a more solid back line than Real Madrid's previous years(and we all know what happened re defense). I don't think Rafa could have kept him here though)
Crouch (would a Crouch Torres partnership really have been impossible to try?)
"We used Crouch and Torres because we knew how Sunderland would mark in defence. They were both playing high, but Torres was sometimes playing between the lines," Benitez said on the club’s official website.
“We knew that it could be a good partnership. One is good in the air the other one is quick. It was a good option for us today.â€
http://www.premiershiplatest.com/news/liverpool-s-benitez-backs-kuyt-explains--557798.html
People who will or could be on the list:
Keane (arguable but he could have been used better for us and he did more for spurs when he went back then you think)
Hyypia(He won't ever be better than he was for LFC. But there was nothing Rafa could have done to keep him here but play our best CB who is now leading a club to glory with a worse team in a league with more potential winners, I hope he gets a leagues medal, which I can't even put _________ Football Club into the same sentence right now...)
Cisse - you could argue he hasn't dont better since he's left but seeing as how he's continued to score and we lack so much pace you can throw it in as a freebie
I'm happy to think one Xabi Alonso may never make it to the list as he won't ever eclipse his 2008-2009 season.
Oh yeah and Ryan Babel can be added to the list already.
[/quote]
What is this "list' that you speak about Assulin? You mentalist.
We're a manager away from being quality players away.
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=38729.msg1047870#msg1047870 date=1265072908]
We're a manager away from being quality players away.
[/quote]
Ha, there we go.
We're a manager away from being quality players away.
[/quote]
Ha, there we go.
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=38729.msg1047844#msg1047844 date=1265064937]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=38729.msg1047667#msg1047667 date=1265041518]
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047338#msg1047338 date=1265006614]
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38729.msg1047333#msg1047333 date=1265001087]
Rafa is slowly developing a phenomenal record at selling player who then go on to meet their potential
[/quote]
such as?
[/quote]
*waits*
[/quote]
guthrie
warnock
bellamy
riise
sissoko
kewell
the irony is its difficult to name more for the reason that rafa hangs on to the shit players, and lets go of decent ones.
[/quote]
Guthrie aside, I don't think you can call the other players as "potentials".
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=38729.msg1047667#msg1047667 date=1265041518]
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047338#msg1047338 date=1265006614]
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38729.msg1047333#msg1047333 date=1265001087]
Rafa is slowly developing a phenomenal record at selling player who then go on to meet their potential
[/quote]
such as?
[/quote]
*waits*
[/quote]
guthrie
warnock
bellamy
riise
sissoko
kewell
the irony is its difficult to name more for the reason that rafa hangs on to the shit players, and lets go of decent ones.
[/quote]
Guthrie aside, I don't think you can call the other players as "potentials".
[quote author=Wilko7 link=topic=38729.msg1047328#msg1047328 date=1264998778]
Some good points, Wizardry. There have been several players that Rafa's bought that make me wonder if he really had a clear plan as to exactly how they were going to be used.
Case in point, Aquilani. He looks tailor made for an attacking midfielder role behind a front two, seeing the strikers' runs and pinging first time passes into space. The problem is that we line up (fitness prevailing) with Torres as a lone striker and Gerrard playing off him which leaves no room for Alberto where he should be most effective.
My chief complaint with Rafa is that, more often than not, he fails to get the best from his players and often doesn't seem to know how to use them properly.
[/quote]
Against bolton, Gerrard was tightly marked by muamba and other players, thus free up more space for Aquilani to roam around, which he did manage an assist to Kuyt. It was nice to let both Gerrard and Aquilani to interchange positions, in Rafa's phrase, it offers more "possibilities".
Some good points, Wizardry. There have been several players that Rafa's bought that make me wonder if he really had a clear plan as to exactly how they were going to be used.
Case in point, Aquilani. He looks tailor made for an attacking midfielder role behind a front two, seeing the strikers' runs and pinging first time passes into space. The problem is that we line up (fitness prevailing) with Torres as a lone striker and Gerrard playing off him which leaves no room for Alberto where he should be most effective.
My chief complaint with Rafa is that, more often than not, he fails to get the best from his players and often doesn't seem to know how to use them properly.
[/quote]
Against bolton, Gerrard was tightly marked by muamba and other players, thus free up more space for Aquilani to roam around, which he did manage an assist to Kuyt. It was nice to let both Gerrard and Aquilani to interchange positions, in Rafa's phrase, it offers more "possibilities".
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38729.msg1047576#msg1047576 date=1265031866]
While Rafa's record in the market is admittedly very patchy (in the medium price range anyway - he does a lot better with "marquee signings"😉[/quote]
To be fair, "marquee signings" are more secured than mid range transfers. As you know, quality does come with a price. Those mid range transfers are just gambles.
The problem is, how many "marquee signings" can we afford to?
While Rafa's record in the market is admittedly very patchy (in the medium price range anyway - he does a lot better with "marquee signings"😉[/quote]
To be fair, "marquee signings" are more secured than mid range transfers. As you know, quality does come with a price. Those mid range transfers are just gambles.
The problem is, how many "marquee signings" can we afford to?
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38729.msg1047040#msg1047040 date=1264971320]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38729.msg1046998#msg1046998 date=1264969477]
If we could find £30-£40m from somewhere (+ sales), we'd be challenging for the title next season.
[/quote]
Do you still have 100% belief in Rafa to spend that amount of money, should he get it?
[/quote]
I concur. Let's change the manager first before we get any fund. I have totally lost faith in him in practically EVERYTHING.
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38729.msg1046998#msg1046998 date=1264969477]
If we could find £30-£40m from somewhere (+ sales), we'd be challenging for the title next season.
[/quote]
Do you still have 100% belief in Rafa to spend that amount of money, should he get it?
[/quote]
I concur. Let's change the manager first before we get any fund. I have totally lost faith in him in practically EVERYTHING.
I am of the opinion that Rafa should go with the kind of season that we are having. However, there is a case for and against it. I'll leave you guys to argue the merits.
People discount the amount of injuries that we have had to key players throughout the season. As a result, we haven't been at our best and we have been devoid of confidence for a large part of the season. Considering the financial restraints that Rafa has faced, he has done a decent job.
Yes we largely have the same squad that we had last season but missing a major factor......Xabi Alonso! His imperious form made us tick. Gerrard's form has been patchy at best not to mention Carra who was extremely poor. Defensively as a unit, we weren't performing. The lack of another striker to deputise for Torres has hurt us. The system that Rafa plays is too predictable. We need to play different formations and getting another striker to partner Torres is essential. Blow the entire xfr budget on getting David Villa.
It is up to Rafa to address these issues and he needs to plan better. He needs to turn things around and move away from playing 2 defensive midfielders. His love affair with Lucas is inexplicable!
People discount the amount of injuries that we have had to key players throughout the season. As a result, we haven't been at our best and we have been devoid of confidence for a large part of the season. Considering the financial restraints that Rafa has faced, he has done a decent job.
Yes we largely have the same squad that we had last season but missing a major factor......Xabi Alonso! His imperious form made us tick. Gerrard's form has been patchy at best not to mention Carra who was extremely poor. Defensively as a unit, we weren't performing. The lack of another striker to deputise for Torres has hurt us. The system that Rafa plays is too predictable. We need to play different formations and getting another striker to partner Torres is essential. Blow the entire xfr budget on getting David Villa.
It is up to Rafa to address these issues and he needs to plan better. He needs to turn things around and move away from playing 2 defensive midfielders. His love affair with Lucas is inexplicable!
Everything you say Roland is very obvious to even casual observers. It's either not obvious to Rafa or he lacks the ability to resolve them. Financial restraints make his job more difficult but he's dug his own hole. I'm not sure whether it's better to lose him now or at the end of the season but I'd be surprised if he was able to win my vote back.
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047331#msg1047331 date=1264999241]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047072#msg1047072 date=1264972657]
The right manager would take us to the title with little money.
[/quote]
he'll also turn water into wine.
[/quote]
If Rafa had bought wisely two summers ago with 30m to spend we could have won the league. Alot of the squad is good enough they just need the right man to guide them.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047072#msg1047072 date=1264972657]
The right manager would take us to the title with little money.
[/quote]
he'll also turn water into wine.
[/quote]
If Rafa had bought wisely two summers ago with 30m to spend we could have won the league. Alot of the squad is good enough they just need the right man to guide them.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047925#msg1047925 date=1265095865]
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047331#msg1047331 date=1264999241]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047072#msg1047072 date=1264972657]
The right manager would take us to the title with little money.
[/quote]
he'll also turn water into wine.
[/quote]
If Rafa had bought wisely two summers ago with 30m to spend we could have won the league. Alot of the squad is good enough they just need the right man to guide them.
[/quote]
We don't pay sufficient wages to attract the 'wise' buys you assert. How many times have you heard that we have agreed personal terms with the player to then have the transfer fall through? I'll tell you - none.
Players are attracted primarily by money; we don't have enough. We need more and better players, Benitez is a proven coach over time with an impressive haul of trophies.
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047331#msg1047331 date=1264999241]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047072#msg1047072 date=1264972657]
The right manager would take us to the title with little money.
[/quote]
he'll also turn water into wine.
[/quote]
If Rafa had bought wisely two summers ago with 30m to spend we could have won the league. Alot of the squad is good enough they just need the right man to guide them.
[/quote]
We don't pay sufficient wages to attract the 'wise' buys you assert. How many times have you heard that we have agreed personal terms with the player to then have the transfer fall through? I'll tell you - none.
Players are attracted primarily by money; we don't have enough. We need more and better players, Benitez is a proven coach over time with an impressive haul of trophies.
Money Money Money.
Gerrard £140k, Torres £140k, Johnson 90k - 140k depending on who you believe, Reina £95k, Agger 75k. We definitely don't spend enough on wages to be able to attract players .......
And re: the Benitez is proven, he's proven he can win trophies when taking over someone else's squad and making some changes to it. He's failed to show he's capable of building a squad.
Right now he's the wrong man for the job.
Gerrard £140k, Torres £140k, Johnson 90k - 140k depending on who you believe, Reina £95k, Agger 75k. We definitely don't spend enough on wages to be able to attract players .......
And re: the Benitez is proven, he's proven he can win trophies when taking over someone else's squad and making some changes to it. He's failed to show he's capable of building a squad.
Right now he's the wrong man for the job.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1047933#msg1047933 date=1265097451]
Money Money Money.
Gerrard £140k, Torres £140k, Johnson 90k - 140k depending on who you believe, Reina £95k, Agger 75k.
We definitely don't spend enough on wages to be able to attract players .......
[/quote]
Eggsssssackerly.
Perspective: Villa and Everton. The perennial overachievers, they buy (fairly) well at a relatively low cost, give or take the odd big signing in the £10m-£15m range.
We spend alot more than they do generally, as pointed out, the season we signed Keane we spent £40m. If that had been spent well it would/could have been a different story. As it is the only positive out of that budget is Riera, and even he hasn't been a big success, Keane and Dossena have gone.
All this bollocks about wages being partly to blame IS bollocks. I'm sure Wenger didn't attract the likes of Adebayor, Van Persie and Arshavin by offering them £140k p/w. We've just given all of our big names lucrative new contracts and look set to do the same with Reina.
If we're in a shitty financial position now thanks to the current climate, then it just serves to show how wasteful we've been when the money has been there. Yeah we've had a certain level of success in the transfer market, notably with Torres, Kuyt and the defensive players in the side, but when it's come to adding the quality around that we've more than got it wrong, and transfer 'priorities' have been questionable to say the least.
The overriding issue again, and one that is symptomatic of our failings over the last decade and a half, is that when we've been in a position of strength, we've failed to capitalise on it, at a cost. That's the true failing of the manager.
Money Money Money.
Gerrard £140k, Torres £140k, Johnson 90k - 140k depending on who you believe, Reina £95k, Agger 75k.
We definitely don't spend enough on wages to be able to attract players .......
[/quote]
Eggsssssackerly.
Perspective: Villa and Everton. The perennial overachievers, they buy (fairly) well at a relatively low cost, give or take the odd big signing in the £10m-£15m range.
We spend alot more than they do generally, as pointed out, the season we signed Keane we spent £40m. If that had been spent well it would/could have been a different story. As it is the only positive out of that budget is Riera, and even he hasn't been a big success, Keane and Dossena have gone.
All this bollocks about wages being partly to blame IS bollocks. I'm sure Wenger didn't attract the likes of Adebayor, Van Persie and Arshavin by offering them £140k p/w. We've just given all of our big names lucrative new contracts and look set to do the same with Reina.
If we're in a shitty financial position now thanks to the current climate, then it just serves to show how wasteful we've been when the money has been there. Yeah we've had a certain level of success in the transfer market, notably with Torres, Kuyt and the defensive players in the side, but when it's come to adding the quality around that we've more than got it wrong, and transfer 'priorities' have been questionable to say the least.
The overriding issue again, and one that is symptomatic of our failings over the last decade and a half, is that when we've been in a position of strength, we've failed to capitalise on it, at a cost. That's the true failing of the manager.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047925#msg1047925 date=1265095865]
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047331#msg1047331 date=1264999241]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047072#msg1047072 date=1264972657]
The right manager would take us to the title with little money.
[/quote]
he'll also turn water into wine.
[/quote]
If Rafa had bought wisely two summers ago with 30m to spend we could have won the league. Alot of the squad is good enough they just need the right man to guide them.
[/quote]
If he didn't have to sell in order to generate more transfer kitty, maybe.
If he didn't make good progress in the Champions League, sold players for profits, do you think the owners will offer him enough money to buy Torres without asking?
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1047331#msg1047331 date=1264999241]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1047072#msg1047072 date=1264972657]
The right manager would take us to the title with little money.
[/quote]
he'll also turn water into wine.
[/quote]
If Rafa had bought wisely two summers ago with 30m to spend we could have won the league. Alot of the squad is good enough they just need the right man to guide them.
[/quote]
If he didn't have to sell in order to generate more transfer kitty, maybe.
If he didn't make good progress in the Champions League, sold players for profits, do you think the owners will offer him enough money to buy Torres without asking?
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Good post.
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Good post.
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38729.msg1048127#msg1048127 date=1265120291]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Good post.
[/quote]
+1
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Good post.
[/quote]
+1
I don't see how anyone can defend Benitez anymore given that we are 6 years into his reign, having spent hundreds of millions of pounds, and still turn out some of the most inept Liverpool sides I have ever seen, poorly motivated despite us paying mega wages, tactically naive in the Premiership and against lower League opposition in Cup Competitions (STILL) despite some lauding him as a genius, a brand of football that is akin to watching paint dry (apart from a 6 month spell last season), more poor transfers than good, mis-use of players/players out of position, reliance of personal favourites despite obvious weaknesses/lack of form.... etc etc etc.
Given that, I still think that we can grab 4th this season with the players we have but, in terms of this season, that will be despite Benitez, not because of him.
Don't give me lack of funds, he has had sufficient funds, and sufficiently class players, that coming 4th in the Prem and enjoying a decent run in all Cup Comps should be a walk in the park. Well, 6 years in, it isn't. This form right now isn't our blip, that great form last year was. Other than that, we have always been a team scrambling for 4th during his tenure (OK 3rd on occasions).
We have had some bad luck this season. But, we have certainly had MASSIVE slices of luck during his tenure; don't forget that. Even stevens I reckon.
We are a mid-table side when Gerrard & Torres are out. Torres, great signing, Gerrard, inherited. He has failed to improve our options when those two are missing. Granted, anyone would miss them but there are plenty of other good players going round. Our squad is as weak as I can remember post Souness.
The icing is the brand of football. It's brainless in the main. Each week we line up with, effectively, 7 defensive players, and Kuyt, and wonder why we can't break the opposition down, or wonder why we have to rely on individual brillance (99% of the time from Gerrard or Torres). Doesn't take a genius.
So, answer to the question, 1 Manager, 2 or 3 quality players.
Given that, I still think that we can grab 4th this season with the players we have but, in terms of this season, that will be despite Benitez, not because of him.
Don't give me lack of funds, he has had sufficient funds, and sufficiently class players, that coming 4th in the Prem and enjoying a decent run in all Cup Comps should be a walk in the park. Well, 6 years in, it isn't. This form right now isn't our blip, that great form last year was. Other than that, we have always been a team scrambling for 4th during his tenure (OK 3rd on occasions).
We have had some bad luck this season. But, we have certainly had MASSIVE slices of luck during his tenure; don't forget that. Even stevens I reckon.
We are a mid-table side when Gerrard & Torres are out. Torres, great signing, Gerrard, inherited. He has failed to improve our options when those two are missing. Granted, anyone would miss them but there are plenty of other good players going round. Our squad is as weak as I can remember post Souness.
The icing is the brand of football. It's brainless in the main. Each week we line up with, effectively, 7 defensive players, and Kuyt, and wonder why we can't break the opposition down, or wonder why we have to rely on individual brillance (99% of the time from Gerrard or Torres). Doesn't take a genius.
So, answer to the question, 1 Manager, 2 or 3 quality players.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Have you got any facts and figures to back this supposition up ?
Realiable figures for wage bills are difficult to come by, but the last reliable ones I saw had the Arsenal wage bill higher than our and it was mainly on account of a 10m loyalty bonus paid to Henry.
That said if you take wage bills + transfer fees we've still outspent Arsenal in Rafa's time here. There's probably not a huge difference between us and United, given how low their net transfer spend is. Chelsea are an exceptional case, Man City are becoming another one.
Nobody expects us to win the league every season, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that when Chelsea and United slip up the way they did last season that we should be able to push our advantage home instead of not winning against shite teams thanks largely to overcautious approaches to the games.
Do you reckon Lyon and Fiorentina spend more than us too ?
Our spending over the last five years is probably in the top 10 in Europe, we're certainly not in the Europe top 10 at the moment.
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Have you got any facts and figures to back this supposition up ?
Realiable figures for wage bills are difficult to come by, but the last reliable ones I saw had the Arsenal wage bill higher than our and it was mainly on account of a 10m loyalty bonus paid to Henry.
That said if you take wage bills + transfer fees we've still outspent Arsenal in Rafa's time here. There's probably not a huge difference between us and United, given how low their net transfer spend is. Chelsea are an exceptional case, Man City are becoming another one.
Nobody expects us to win the league every season, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that when Chelsea and United slip up the way they did last season that we should be able to push our advantage home instead of not winning against shite teams thanks largely to overcautious approaches to the games.
Do you reckon Lyon and Fiorentina spend more than us too ?
Our spending over the last five years is probably in the top 10 in Europe, we're certainly not in the Europe top 10 at the moment.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1048409#msg1048409 date=1265182563]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Have you got any facts and figures to back this supposition up ?
Realiable figures for wage bills are difficult to come by, but the last reliable ones I saw had the Arsenal wage bill higher than our and it was mainly on account of a 10m loyalty bonus paid to Henry.
That said if you take wage bills + transfer fees we've still outspent Arsenal in Rafa's time here. There's probably not a huge difference between us and United, given how low their net transfer spend is. Chelsea are an exceptional case, Man City are becoming another one.
Nobody expects us to win the league every season, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that when Chelsea and United slip up the way they did last season that we should be able to push our advantage home instead of not winning against shite teams thanks largely to overcautious approaches to the games.
Do you reckon Lyon and Fiorentina spend more than us too ?
Our spending over the last five years is probably in the top 10 in Europe, we're certainly not in the Europe top 10 at the moment.
[/quote]
Facts and figures are from:
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/article/b698526bd32fb110VgnVCM100000ba42f00aRCRD.htm
http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/uploads/assets/docstore/2009_annual_report.pdf
The supposition about Spurs and Man City is from an accountant friends reading of the source above and general consensus that Citeh are spending and paying more than us (no links I'm afraid).
I concur that we should be able to take advantage of slip ups by others and indeed we did finish 2nd last year so we fulfilled that criteria.
Given all that I think we should come to the realisation that cash is king and we are likely to fall further behind (I'm told that both Villa and Sunderlands spends are increasing) and to get better we need more quality players and thus better finances before we need a change of Manager in my opinion.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Have you got any facts and figures to back this supposition up ?
Realiable figures for wage bills are difficult to come by, but the last reliable ones I saw had the Arsenal wage bill higher than our and it was mainly on account of a 10m loyalty bonus paid to Henry.
That said if you take wage bills + transfer fees we've still outspent Arsenal in Rafa's time here. There's probably not a huge difference between us and United, given how low their net transfer spend is. Chelsea are an exceptional case, Man City are becoming another one.
Nobody expects us to win the league every season, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that when Chelsea and United slip up the way they did last season that we should be able to push our advantage home instead of not winning against shite teams thanks largely to overcautious approaches to the games.
Do you reckon Lyon and Fiorentina spend more than us too ?
Our spending over the last five years is probably in the top 10 in Europe, we're certainly not in the Europe top 10 at the moment.
[/quote]
Facts and figures are from:
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/article/b698526bd32fb110VgnVCM100000ba42f00aRCRD.htm
http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/uploads/assets/docstore/2009_annual_report.pdf
The supposition about Spurs and Man City is from an accountant friends reading of the source above and general consensus that Citeh are spending and paying more than us (no links I'm afraid).
I concur that we should be able to take advantage of slip ups by others and indeed we did finish 2nd last year so we fulfilled that criteria.
Given all that I think we should come to the realisation that cash is king and we are likely to fall further behind (I'm told that both Villa and Sunderlands spends are increasing) and to get better we need more quality players and thus better finances before we need a change of Manager in my opinion.
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1048426#msg1048426 date=1265186465]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1048409#msg1048409 date=1265182563]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Have you got any facts and figures to back this supposition up ?
Realiable figures for wage bills are difficult to come by, but the last reliable ones I saw had the Arsenal wage bill higher than our and it was mainly on account of a 10m loyalty bonus paid to Henry.
That said if you take wage bills + transfer fees we've still outspent Arsenal in Rafa's time here. There's probably not a huge difference between us and United, given how low their net transfer spend is. Chelsea are an exceptional case, Man City are becoming another one.
Nobody expects us to win the league every season, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that when Chelsea and United slip up the way they did last season that we should be able to push our advantage home instead of not winning against shite teams thanks largely to overcautious approaches to the games.
Do you reckon Lyon and Fiorentina spend more than us too ?
Our spending over the last five years is probably in the top 10 in Europe, we're certainly not in the Europe top 10 at the moment.
[/quote]
Facts and figures are from:
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/article/b698526bd32fb110VgnVCM100000ba42f00aRCRD.htm
http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/uploads/assets/docstore/2009_annual_report.pdf
The supposition about Spurs and Man City is from an accountant friends reading of the source above and general consensus that Citeh are spending and paying more than us (no links I'm afraid).
I concur that we should be able to take advantage of slip ups by others and indeed we did finish 2nd last year so we fulfilled that criteria.
Given all that I think we should come to the realisation that cash is king and we are likely to fall further behind (I'm told that both Villa and Sunderlands spends are increasing) and to get better we need more quality players and thus better finances before we need a change of Manager in my opinion.
[/quote]
Well, you have certainly done your homework Jexy.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1048409#msg1048409 date=1265182563]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.
During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.
Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.
Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?
It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?
More cash to match expectations, I say.
[/quote]
Have you got any facts and figures to back this supposition up ?
Realiable figures for wage bills are difficult to come by, but the last reliable ones I saw had the Arsenal wage bill higher than our and it was mainly on account of a 10m loyalty bonus paid to Henry.
That said if you take wage bills + transfer fees we've still outspent Arsenal in Rafa's time here. There's probably not a huge difference between us and United, given how low their net transfer spend is. Chelsea are an exceptional case, Man City are becoming another one.
Nobody expects us to win the league every season, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that when Chelsea and United slip up the way they did last season that we should be able to push our advantage home instead of not winning against shite teams thanks largely to overcautious approaches to the games.
Do you reckon Lyon and Fiorentina spend more than us too ?
Our spending over the last five years is probably in the top 10 in Europe, we're certainly not in the Europe top 10 at the moment.
[/quote]
Facts and figures are from:
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/article/b698526bd32fb110VgnVCM100000ba42f00aRCRD.htm
http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/uploads/assets/docstore/2009_annual_report.pdf
The supposition about Spurs and Man City is from an accountant friends reading of the source above and general consensus that Citeh are spending and paying more than us (no links I'm afraid).
I concur that we should be able to take advantage of slip ups by others and indeed we did finish 2nd last year so we fulfilled that criteria.
Given all that I think we should come to the realisation that cash is king and we are likely to fall further behind (I'm told that both Villa and Sunderlands spends are increasing) and to get better we need more quality players and thus better finances before we need a change of Manager in my opinion.
[/quote]
Well, you have certainly done your homework Jexy.
[quote author=LEMONed link=topic=38729.msg1048391#msg1048391 date=1265167907]
Whether someone is a Pro-Rafa or Anti-Rafa, I'm sure most of us would agree that his squad will be better equipped if we have the same war chest of chelskis, man.city or scums.
[/quote]
Does anyone think that he'd have done much better if he'd had the war chest of Villa, Spurs or Brum over the last few years?
Whether someone is a Pro-Rafa or Anti-Rafa, I'm sure most of us would agree that his squad will be better equipped if we have the same war chest of chelskis, man.city or scums.
[/quote]
Does anyone think that he'd have done much better if he'd had the war chest of Villa, Spurs or Brum over the last few years?
What's your point, Wizardry? Which manager WOULD do better with less than he's actually had?
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