Are we a manager away ? or quality players away ?

[Judge Jules]

That's uncharacteristically extreme and unnecessary. Our displays this season have given everyone pause for thought - to say the least - but one doesn't have to be a RCDNW merchant to say that not everything's his fault, let alone to make a reasoned case to show why not.

 

[manwithnoname]

I don't look back on last season with any fondness

We won no trophies

We got murdered by Chelsea and went out of Europe

We came second.
*shrug*

The *only* positive was the feeling that we were one or two players away being Champions.

Unfortunately, Benitez sold a world-class player and replaced him with an injured Italian who isn't very good, reckoned that Eggnog, Voronin and Babel was good enough attacking support for Torres, and thought TIC and Masher was a decent CM partnership

And look at us

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1048426#msg1048426 date=1265186465]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1048409#msg1048409 date=1265182563]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1047945#msg1047945 date=1265099547]
Thanks to those confirming my points. We spend less in total than numerous clubs, you can't divorce fees from wages as they both go to make total spend.

During Rafa's stay Arsenal, Everton and Villa have won next to nothing.

Oh yeah, and Arsenal's wage bill is higher than ours anyway.

Cash counts, and claiming trophies have been won under Rafa as in spite of him is a bit juvenile, no?

It's almost as if expectations exceed reality. Surely not, eh?

More cash to match expectations, I say.


[/quote]

Have you got any facts and figures to back this supposition up ?

Realiable figures for wage bills are difficult to come by, but the last reliable ones I saw had the Arsenal wage bill higher than our and it was mainly on account of a 10m loyalty bonus paid to Henry.

That said if you take wage bills + transfer fees we've still outspent Arsenal in Rafa's time here. There's probably not a huge difference between us and United, given how low their net transfer spend is. Chelsea are an exceptional case, Man City are becoming another one.

Nobody expects us to win the league every season, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that when Chelsea and United slip up the way they did last season that we should be able to push our advantage home instead of not winning against shite teams thanks largely to overcautious approaches to the games.

Do you reckon Lyon and Fiorentina spend more than us too ?

Our spending over the last five years is probably in the top 10 in Europe, we're certainly not in the Europe top 10 at the moment.
[/quote]

Facts and figures are from:

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/article/b698526bd32fb110VgnVCM100000ba42f00aRCRD.htm

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/uploads/assets/docstore/2009_annual_report.pdf

The supposition about Spurs and Man City is from an accountant friends reading of the source above and general consensus that Citeh are spending and paying more than us (no links I'm afraid).

I concur that we should be able to take advantage of slip ups by others and indeed we did finish 2nd last year so we fulfilled that criteria.

Given all that I think we should come to the realisation that cash is king and we are likely to fall further behind (I'm told that both Villa and Sunderlands spends are increasing) and to get better we need more quality players and thus better finances before we need a change of Manager in my opinion.
[/quote]

I'll never agree that we took full advantage of others underperforming when we finished second, that's just lower talk. It's all the Benitez apologists do these days.

Well I'm not paying 600 quid to see that. I've seen a shorter (newer) free version that differs in some regards. Those figures are a couple of years old now. I don't actually know what I'm supposed to look at in the Spurs report. Is it the operating costs are £92m bit ? Wages are included in that but they don't give a figure.


Anyway from the excerpt of the D&T report did you notice the following:

Chelsea became the first club to report over £80m gross transfer spending in one season. Three others,
Liverpool (£70m), Manchester City (£62m) and Portsmouth (£53m) had gross transfer spend in excess of £50m.

Poor the Liverpool.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Jexy makes a valid point:

"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2007/08
are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, and Newcastle United £75m".

How the hell did the barcodes manage to spend that much with the squad they had?

 

[Rosco]

Jexy is your opinion that until we can outspend the competition that we can't expect to be better than them ?

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38729.msg1048907#msg1048907 date=1265279389]
We got our highest points total in 21 fucking years, but we 'slipped up'.

Poor the crying supporter.
[/quote]

In perspective of the entire season, fair enough, the point I think a few are trying to make is that we didn't capitalise on United's run of poor form earlier in the season. We were top remember and with points in the bag too, and we let that slip by dropping soft points against midtable/relegation fodder, meanwhile allowing United to get their act together and return to the form of Champions. If we'd won our games while they were struggling and we'd put ourselves initially in a strong position ourselves, we might well have finished with silverware.

Whatever you think of the overall improvement, there was definitely and element of 'what if' when looking back at the end of it all.

And too many times under Benitez we've come good in the second half of the season, usually when it's too late. In a position of power, on and off the pitch, too many times we've failed to capitalise and ram home our superiority. How many times has he reiterated the importance of keeping players fresh for the run in? The run in that usually arrives with us well off the pace because players were rotated too much to start with. That might not be the case of late, and injuries have hindered us this time, but it's certainly been a factor in the past.

You might be happy with the improvement, most were, but we 'could' have achieved so much more, and that's without mentioning the impact the £30m we wasted in the transfer window previous to that season.

Did Rafa aid our improvement last season? Yes, of course he did. Did he also hinder our chances? When factoring the poor form and dropped points against the likes of Stoke, and the disastrous Summer spending, then you'd have to also give a resounding yes.

There's some blinkered posters on this thread.

 

[mark1975]

People can factor in what they like about money. The point is, across two transfer windows, we've spent near £70m on:

Dossena
Keane
Brazilian Goalie
Aquilani
Johnson

The jury is out on the last two, but that's really besides the point, the first three amount to £30m worth of failure, and the last two have spent the majority of the season on the sidelines. Whether they're a future success is neither here nor there, the fact is, in a position of strength we've failed to capitalise. The Summer's spending 08/09 was disastrous and whatever the quality of Johnson and Aquilani, there were other priority positions that needed strengthening, particularly in attack. Rafa chose to spend £20m or whatever on Aquilani, knowing he wouldn't be able to hit the grounding running for us due to injury. I have no problem with him buying his first choice signings, we've argued about it enough in the past on here, but I have a problem with him then bemoaning injuries and the depth of the squad when it was his choice to buy an injured player!

And then there's the £18m right back, forgetting the fact that he simply cannot defend well, he's a cracking player, but the £18m could have bought us a class player in attack, where we've really fallen short. Yes we needed a right back, but hey ho, he's been out now any way and we've gotten by, and probably defended better too.

 

[LEMONed]

Mentioned these in another thread, just paste it over here.

My only grudge against this season is, we failed to strengthen a squad which came close to winning the title last season.

Aquilani, Johnson and Krygiakos were the only players we brought in to replace the departed first team players. Some may consider them as the "upgraded version" of the departed players (well, initially), but the fact remain the same, we 'replaced' players, but didn't strengthen the squad.

We failed to improve the personnel that saw us finished second last season. Torres' injury problem (no decent backup striker), left back (Dossena, Aurelio's injury, Insua's inexperience), left wing (inconsistent Riera, Babel) were the key reasons why we failed to win last season, but we did not address the problem in the summer, yet losing key personnels in the summer and banking on new additions to help pull us through again.

I still remember the summer transfer topics like, "we want david silva", "we want someone to replace Dossena", "we want david villa", "we want adam johnson", "we want tevez". Because we know they would have improved our squad last season, without the thought of Alonso and Arbeloa leaving.

 

[ZhaoYun]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38729.msg1049260#msg1049260 date=1265324168]
People can factor in what they like about money. The point is, across two transfer windows, we've spent near £70m on:

Dossena
Keane
Brazilian Goalie
Aquilani
Johnson

The jury is out on the last two, but that's really besides the point, the first three amount to £30m worth of failure, and the last two have spent the majority of the season on the sidelines. Whether they're a future success is neither here nor there, the fact is, in a position of strength we've failed to capitalise. The Summer's spending 08/09 was disastrous and whatever the quality of Johnson and Aquilani, there were other priority positions that needed strengthening, particularly in attack. Rafa chose to spend £20m or whatever on Aquilani, knowing he wouldn't be able to hit the grounding running for us due to injury. I have no problem with him buying his first choice signings, we've argued about it enough in the past on here, but I have a problem with him then bemoaning injuries and the depth of the squad when it was his choice to buy an injured player!

And then there's the £18m right back, forgetting the fact that he simply cannot defend well, he's a cracking player, but the £18m could have bought us a class player in attack, where we've really fallen short. Yes we needed a right back, but hey ho, he's been out now any way and we've gotten by, and probably defended better too.

[/quote]

I read that our manager is looking for another RB. Now, clearly striker is our priority, why a RB ?

If I am the owner, I will not give a single cent to the manager.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=38729.msg1048950#msg1048950 date=1265282970]
Don't get me wrong KHL, I was very pleased with our overall performance last season. The team and management did very well and put it up to United. I, like Fabio (I think, I don't want to speak for him), was happy with last season. But in November and January we dropped points against teams we should have beaten. Yes our record against the other top four clubs made up for this, but that and our champagne football from Feb onwards did not make amends because we did not win the league.

It's open to interpretation mate, but I agree with Fabio, whether it was nerves or pressure, we slipped up last season.
[/quote]

No we f*cked up because we didn;t have enough variety in the final third to win all the games we could have. When teams sat deep happy for a point we often were found wanting.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38729.msg1049164#msg1049164 date=1265307072]
I don't look back on last season with any fondness

We won no trophies

We got murdered by Chelsea and went out of Europe

We came second.
*shrug*

The *only* positive was the feeling that we were one or two players away being Champions.

Unfortunately, Benitez sold a world-class player and replaced him with an injured Italian who isn't very good, reckoned that Eggnog, Voronin and Babel was good enough attacking support for Torres, and thought TIC and Masher was a decent CM partnership

And look at us
[/quote]

That sums it up well. Sad thing is we were given a great chance to win the thing and shot ourselves in the foot big time.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38729.msg1049337#msg1049337 date=1265347135]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38729.msg1049164#msg1049164 date=1265307072]
I don't look back on last season with any fondness

We won no trophies

We got murdered by Chelsea and went out of Europe

We came second.
*shrug*

The *only* positive was the feeling that we were one or two players away being Champions.

Unfortunately, Benitez sold a world-class player and replaced him with an injured Italian who isn't very good, reckoned that Eggnog, Voronin and Babel was good enough attacking support for Torres, and thought TIC and Masher was a decent CM partnership

And look at us
[/quote]

That sums it up well. Sad thing is we were given a great chance to win the thing and shot ourselves in the foot big time.
[/quote]

How did we?

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=38729.msg1048920#msg1048920 date=1265280903]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1048875#msg1048875 date=1265275999]
You can't argue with total spend neither with the idea that that the better players will gravitate toward the better payers. Neither is or can be skewed. Money breeds success, highest wages attract best recruits.
[/quote]

As a general principle, yeah I'd have a hard time arguing against that.

As for whether an argument is justified as using that as some sort of catch all excuse for our current predicament, well, I'd kinda have a field day.
[/quote]

You'd need a field to have a field day. I think the general principles I outlined apply and I've tried to back that up. I think this manager, a new manager, whatever manager; needs to be able to recruit on the same financial basis as Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Citeh and Spurs is all.

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049153#msg1049153 date=1265304698]

It's gone very quiet because no one wants to argue with a bunch of blinkered apologists who'd polish Rafa's balls if all he did was to keep us out of the Champuionship.
[/quote]

If you had an counter-argument you'd have made it with some evidence. Accusing posters of being apologists simply because the facts don't suit your opinion is unnecessary. In general, cash spent equals success; live with it.

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1049218#msg1049218 date=1265319013]
Jexy is your opinion that until we can outspend the competition that we can't expect to be better than them ?

[/quote]

Not quite. I think if we can match their spends (and I mean total spends = fees added together with wages*) we can allow Benitez to recruit better players. I think he has the skills to manage trophy winning teams.

* the reason I've laboured this point is, to make a comparison; if you bought a car you wouldn't count the initial purchase price (transfer fee) as the only cost and ignore the running costs (wages, agents commission etc etc etc) would you? It's why the likes of Arsenal always appear to be spending less because people only view the transfer fee in isolation when in fact they spend more over time.

 

[Rosco]

I just won't ever agree with you Jexy.

1. Arsenal don't outspend us when you take everything into account. We've outspent them in transfers by probably about 130m Gross (135m Net ) in the Benitez era, you're saying they spend 10m more a year on wages. So we've still outspent them by 70m.

2. As Mark pointed out Benitez hasn't covered himself in glory with the last 80m that he spent. We've spent enough to be in a much better position than we are now. He's had enough to money to bring in top players as evidenced by the likes of Torres and Mascherano, the problem is he's had enough money to bring in streams of average to good players too.

3. I've always maintained that Benitez's main problem is his inability to use his resources (both money and players) correctly. Until he does that we'll never win the league. Going forward we have to expect Man City to outspend us but I'm not worried yet, they seem intent on wasting money left right and centre. 130k a week on Vieira, massively overpriced players like Robinho, Lescott, Santa Cruz. If Benitez can't spend money more wisely than City then he doesn't belong in the top flight of managers.

 

[Avmenon]

I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

They clung to their crutch, of course.

'THE FUCKING YANKS' argument was always an ace to be played.

But something was missing, wasn't it?

Lo and behold, one of the sharper ones noticed that there was a way to re-phrase the net spend argument to include 'WAGE BILLS AND BUDGET'..and verily, their Emperor was soon restored to his position of pre-eminence.

'Cash spent equals success'?

Maybe, but using what little cash you have to buy shit and then not know to play them equals disaster.

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1049347#msg1049347 date=1265355208]
I just won't ever agree with you Jexy.

1. Arsenal don't outspend us when you take everything into account. We've outspent them in transfers by probably about 130m Gross (135m Net ) in the Benitez era, you're saying they spend 10m more a year on wages. So we've still outspent them by 70m.

2. As Mark pointed out Benitez hasn't covered himself in glory with the last 80m that he spent. We've spent enough to be in a much better position than we are now. He's had enough to money to bring in top players as evidenced by the likes of Torres and Mascherano, the problem is he's had enough money to bring in streams of average to good players too.

3. I've always maintained that Benitez's main problem is his inability to use his resources (both money and players) correctly. Until he does that we'll never win the league. Going forward we have to expect Man City to outspend us but I'm not worried yet, they seem intent on wasting money left right and centre. 130k a week on Vieira, massively overpriced players like Robinho, Lescott, Santa Cruz. If Benitez can't spend money more wisely than City then he doesn't belong in the top flight of managers.
[/quote]

But we've done better than Arsenal and Man City during Rafa's tenure.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1049347#msg1049347 date=1265355208]
I just won't ever agree with you Jexy.

1. Arsenal don't outspend us when you take everything into account. We've outspent them in transfers by probably about 130m Gross (135m Net ) in the Benitez era, you're saying they spend 10m more a year on wages. So we've still outspent them by 70m.

2. As Mark pointed out Benitez hasn't covered himself in glory with the last 80m that he spent. We've spent enough to be in a much better position than we are now. He's had enough to money to bring in top players as evidenced by the likes of Torres and Mascherano, the problem is he's had enough money to bring in streams of average to good players too.

3. I've always maintained that Benitez's main problem is his inability to use his resources (both money and players) correctly. Until he does that we'll never win the league. Going forward we have to expect Man City to outspend us but I'm not worried yet, they seem intent on wasting money left right and centre. 130k a week on Vieira, massively overpriced players like Robinho, Lescott, Santa Cruz. If Benitez can't spend money more wisely than City then he doesn't belong in the top flight of managers.
[/quote]

And regards Arsenal's wages, the fact is they don't buy £20m players either. Wenger generally buys low cost relative unknowns (a point we're trying to make with regards to spending well within resources) and the occasional £8m-£15m player like Nasri.

Rafa's done well with players like Skrtel, Agger, Arbeloa, Kuyt and Reina, but when we've needed to really push forward with a player that will really help us make that final leap forward, he's fallen well short.

This is what fucking annoys me about people over last season. Sure, we improved, but the fact is it was a season when we could have capitalised on other teams poor form. When we were top of the league, United were struggling, and Chelsea didn't get their act together until late on either.

Whatever the progress it was also a missed opportunity. If we'd spent that £30m more wisely, who knows? Now look at us. United and Chelsea are back in the form of Champions, Arsenal and City are a threat again and Spurs are pushing us too. Football is about seizing whatever small opportunities come your way. The last time we finished 2nd was in 2002. Is it going to be another 7 years before we do that again? And what about finishing as Champions? 20 years and counting?

Yeah we progressed but we also needed to make the most of the problems of our competitors and it's something that we should rightfully be regretting.

Poor the fan.. Yeah right. Success is measured by who finished first, the mark of Champions is building on a position of strength and seizing the initiative. We never, we finished second and half the forum seem intent on wanking themselves silly over it for the next decade.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1049352#msg1049352 date=1265356089]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1049347#msg1049347 date=1265355208]
I just won't ever agree with you Jexy.

1. Arsenal don't outspend us when you take everything into account. We've outspent them in transfers by probably about 130m Gross (135m Net ) in the Benitez era, you're saying they spend 10m more a year on wages. So we've still outspent them by 70m.

2. As Mark pointed out Benitez hasn't covered himself in glory with the last 80m that he spent. We've spent enough to be in a much better position than we are now. He's had enough to money to bring in top players as evidenced by the likes of Torres and Mascherano, the problem is he's had enough money to bring in streams of average to good players too.

3. I've always maintained that Benitez's main problem is his inability to use his resources (both money and players) correctly. Until he does that we'll never win the league. Going forward we have to expect Man City to outspend us but I'm not worried yet, they seem intent on wasting money left right and centre. 130k a week on Vieira, massively overpriced players like Robinho, Lescott, Santa Cruz. If Benitez can't spend money more wisely than City then he doesn't belong in the top flight of managers.
[/quote]

But we've done better than Arsenal and Man City during Rafa's tenure.
[/quote]

And? We might still do better than them this season. It's pretty irrelevant really, whatever they've spent is their issue. The point is we finished second last season and during those two transfer windows we've spent £80m, none of which can be considered a resounding success. What if half of it was eh?

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

They clung to their crutch, of course.

'THE FUCKING YANKS' argument was always an ace to be played.

But something was missing, wasn't it?

Lo and behold, one of the sharper ones noticed that there was a way to re-phrase the net spend argument to include 'WAGE BILLS AND BUDGET'..and verily, their Emperor was soon restored to his position of pre-eminence.

'Cash spent equals success'?

Maybe, but using what little cash you have to buy shit and then not know to play them equals disaster.
[/quote]

My dark room contains facts and figure, yours just the echo of your latest rant.

Any right minded person can see that Rafa has made mistakes (who doesn't) but only a few have won more than him during his time at Liverpool and they've spent more. If we get him the same money as the others, I think it's reasonable to think he may win more.

 

[Avmenon]

Yes, let's get him another shit-load of money for more top top TOP players.

Oh wait.

There should be an apologist coming along soon to talk about Veron, Nani and Francis Jeffers.

It's a good thing the likes of Reading, Wolves et. al don't read this forum, they might just surrender without a fight.

Ah, here's another apologist talking about how 'all the best teams lose sometimes'.

Those the 'facts and figures' you're talking about?

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049357#msg1049357 date=1265357383]

Yes, let's get him another shit-load of money for more top top TOP players.

Oh wait.

There should be an apologist coming along soon to talk about Veron, Nani and Francis Jeffers.

It's a good thing the likes of Reading, Wolves et. al don't read this forum, they might just surrender without a fight.

Ah, here's another apologist talking about how 'all the best teams lose sometimes'.

Those the 'facts and figures' you're talking about?
[/quote]

No.I've never mentioned those players, teams or phrases.

The thread's about:

Re: Are we a manager away ? or quality players away ?

I think it's quality players for the reasons I've given before.

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38729.msg1049354#msg1049354 date=1265356257]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1049352#msg1049352 date=1265356089]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38729.msg1049347#msg1049347 date=1265355208]
I just won't ever agree with you Jexy.

1. Arsenal don't outspend us when you take everything into account. We've outspent them in transfers by probably about 130m Gross (135m Net ) in the Benitez era, you're saying they spend 10m more a year on wages. So we've still outspent them by 70m.

2. As Mark pointed out Benitez hasn't covered himself in glory with the last 80m that he spent. We've spent enough to be in a much better position than we are now. He's had enough to money to bring in top players as evidenced by the likes of Torres and Mascherano, the problem is he's had enough money to bring in streams of average to good players too.

3. I've always maintained that Benitez's main problem is his inability to use his resources (both money and players) correctly. Until he does that we'll never win the league. Going forward we have to expect Man City to outspend us but I'm not worried yet, they seem intent on wasting money left right and centre. 130k a week on Vieira, massively overpriced players like Robinho, Lescott, Santa Cruz. If Benitez can't spend money more wisely than City then he doesn't belong in the top flight of managers.
[/quote]

But we've done better than Arsenal and Man City during Rafa's tenure.
[/quote]

And? We might still do better than them this season. It's pretty irrelevant really, whatever they've spent is their issue. The point is we finished second last season and during those two transfer windows we've spent £80m, none of which can be considered a resounding success. What if half of it was eh?
[/quote]

I don't think the amount spent is irrelevant as I've tried to show before. I'm advocating new money (up to the level of total spend of the others) not the churn in changing players your 80m represents.

I think we don't pay high enough wages to compete with numerous clubs for the quality players we need, this is ahead of a new Manager, in my opinion of course.

Simply put, if we continue to spend less than our competitors over time we will fall behind REGARDLESS of the Manager.

 

[Asbo]

We gained the most points we have ever had in 21 bloody years, and all you hear is about the 6 points we dropped in January, (or whenever).

Its not a RCDNW statement.

How the FUCK can anyone say "United Slipped up"

They won the League with 90 points, thats the THIRD higest total EVER

HOW THE FUCK WHERE THEY SLIPPING UP???

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38729.msg1049416#msg1049416 date=1265366527]
We gained the most points we have ever had in 21 bloody years, and all you hear is about the 6 points we dropped in January, (or whenever).

Its not a RCDNW statement.

How the FUCK can anyone say "United Slipped up"

They won the League with 90 points, thats the THIRD higest total EVER

HOW THE FUCK WHERE THEY SLIPPING UP???



[/quote]

Fine they didn't slip up. They DID however drop points at poor teams (see Fulham). We did slip up however. Points win prizes mate and we wasted some glorious opportunities to take that league. I'm thrilled with our points total, absolutely proud of the boys, BUT anyone who didn't think we could improve last season is blind. Every team can improve. Ever. There's always points dropped and trophies thrown away for any club. If we begin to settle that "we didn't win but we did brilliantly anyways" attitude then we'll never win anything. We need to be pedantic to strive to be the best. We can't rest on our laurels because we've been doing that for years. And now the mancs have caught us up and will probably take our most league titles crown. It's a sickening thought.
In a world where success can be bought last year was a glimmer of hope for us. And it looks like the manager thought we were good enough and made minor changes to certain departments over the summer. Yes we lost alonso however in aquilani we thought we bought a ready made replacement. Hindsight proves this otherwise. However he spent money in areas of the park where it wasn't needed, like right back. Did we really need to blow most of our budget on a right back when torres is our ONLY striker? No. I love Johnson and he is a fantastic asset but he wasn't what we needed. I think we won't agree on this issue mate so i'm not gonna get wound up like yesterday. I'll just leave wit ha "i've said my piece" attitude

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

They clung to their crutch, of course.

'THE FUCKING YANKS' argument was always an ace to be played.

But something was missing, wasn't it?

Lo and behold, one of the sharper ones noticed that there was a way to re-phrase the net spend argument to include 'WAGE BILLS AND BUDGET'..and verily, their Emperor was soon restored to his position of pre-eminence.

'Cash spent equals success'?

Maybe, but using what little cash you have to buy shit and then not know to play them equals disaster.
[/quote]
By the looks of it you're the only one who lingers in a dark place.

Oh, to deem Johnson and Aquilani and for that instance a very decent back-up keeper and a Spartan defender shit is some premature bollocks.

What's with all the hate on here?

We all crave to win the Premeiership. Some reckons the way forward is to get in another manager soem don't think that would help a whole lot at this point. Other factors such as CASH and luck has got an influx on things.

Rafa's made faults and probably a lot of them but what do you expect, every manager does? If we slips out of the top 4 I'd be tempted to show him the door come Summer but untill then there's not much that suggests he shouldn't be given another try.

Anyone who can't see how injuries and odd decisions has harmed our season untill now are as blinkered as the ones who's saying Rafa is flawless.

It's not all Rafa's fault evidently and he shouldn't be judged untill the Season is finally over (in one way or another and within reason).

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38729.msg1049416#msg1049416 date=1265366527]
We gained the most points we have ever had in 21 bloody years, and all you hear is about the 6 points we dropped in January, (or whenever).

Its not a RCDNW statement.

How the FUCK can anyone say "United Slipped up"

They won the League with 90 points, thats the THIRD higest total EVER

HOW THE FUCK WHERE THEY SLIPPING UP???



[/quote]

Read the thread, it's not about 'overall' it's about the fact that when they were in poor form and we were flying we failed to capitalise on it. We were top and then started to drop points, while United eased back into form, if we'd have carried on winning against the Stoke's and co of the Premiership then the pressure would have been on United. Instead the we let the pressure mount on ourselves by seeing our lead dwindle as we dropped points for weeks on end (as per our usual shite winter spell).

Whatever they did overall is irrelevant, they seized the initiative by capitalising on our errors, something we had the opportunity to do while they were in their own run of poor form.

 

[Molbystwin]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

They clung to their crutch, of course.

'THE FUCKING YANKS' argument was always an ace to be played.

But something was missing, wasn't it?

Lo and behold, one of the sharper ones noticed that there was a way to re-phrase the net spend argument to include 'WAGE BILLS AND BUDGET'..and verily, their Emperor was soon restored to his position of pre-eminence.

'Cash spent equals success'?

Maybe, but using what little cash you have to buy shit and then not know to play them equals disaster.
[/quote]

Or better still harp on and on and on about every single mistake the manager ever makes without ever acknowledging the cards he has been asked to play at the table, nor the cards of his opponents.

Suggesting that despite much evidence to the contrary that in some way he has "lost it" or is about to "lose it", ignoring improvements as though they are an inevitable birthright of our beloved club regardless of the current financial reality and fucking atrocious liars/owners.

Impressive victories greeted without any praise just greedy ready acceptance despite the victorys often arriving in places and against teams were teams quite simply do not go and win 4-1 or 4-0.

Relating every single failing or percieved failing both on and of the pitch to be a personal shortcoming of the incumbent manager, justified with a detailed psychological profile of said idiot, regardless of result or performances, whilst all the time hoping, yearning and praying for one of the multitude of clearly far superior managers to be installed forthwith or at the next nearest possible opportuinty ( please god) because they would all jump at the chance to guide us into the promised land, zero net spend or not.

If the manager is shit and wants sacking then I will say so, I don't want Rafa kept in place out of some kind of blind hero worship nor devout loyalty or twisted sense of masochism. I want him in place because he is one of the best managers in the world and will if given the right backing get us where we all want to go or do a fine job trying. Blame the owners or blame the manager?? ffs....

Regardless of whether you think Rafa is shit or not or a bit m'eh he doesnt even deserve to be in the same sentence as them two IMHO.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=38729.msg1049360#msg1049360 date=1265359194]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049357#msg1049357 date=1265357383]

Yes, let's get him another shit-load of money for more top top TOP players.

Oh wait.

There should be an apologist coming along soon to talk about Veron, Nani and Francis Jeffers.

It's a good thing the likes of Reading, Wolves et. al don't read this forum, they might just surrender without a fight.

Ah, here's another apologist talking about how 'all the best teams lose sometimes'.

Those the 'facts and figures' you're talking about?
[/quote]

No.I've never mentioned those players, teams or phrases.

The thread's about:

Re: Are we a manager away ? or quality players away ?

I think it's quality players for the reasons I've given before.
[/quote]

Indeed, but you are assuming that the quality manager we have will be able to use the mega-bucks that should be made available by 'the fucking Yanks' to get those players.

I don't think that's an automatic conclusion.

 

[Le Chacal]

Mourinho would have won us the league last season and we would still be in the race this season.

We are a manager away.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38729.msg1049427#msg1049427 date=1265367773]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38729.msg1049351#msg1049351 date=1265355683]
I fear there is a dark room somewhere where the Rafa apologists spent the last months glumly doing the maths and realising that the 'NET SPEND' argument was wearing a little thin because their Emperor had still managed to spend millions of pounds on players that were either shit or ill-suited for our needs.

They clung to their crutch, of course.

'THE FUCKING YANKS' argument was always an ace to be played.

But something was missing, wasn't it?

Lo and behold, one of the sharper ones noticed that there was a way to re-phrase the net spend argument to include 'WAGE BILLS AND BUDGET'..and verily, their Emperor was soon restored to his position of pre-eminence.

'Cash spent equals success'?

Maybe, but using what little cash you have to buy shit and then not know to play them equals disaster.
[/quote]
By the looks of it you're the only one who lingers in a dark place.

Oh, to deem Johnson and Aquilani and for that instance a very decent back-up keeper and a Spartan defender shit is some premature bollocks.

What's with all the hate on here?

We all crave to win the Premeiership. Some reckons the way forward is to get in another manager soem don't think that would help a whole lot at this point. Other factors such as CASH and luck has got an influx on things.

Rafa's made faults and probably a lot of them but what do you expect, every manager does? If we slips out of the top 4 I'd be tempted to show him the door come Summer but untill then there's not much that suggests he shouldn't be given another try.

Anyone who can't see how injuries and odd decisions has harmed our season untill now are as blinkered as the ones who's saying Rafa is flawless.

It's not all Rafa's fault evidently and he shouldn't be judged untill the Season is finally over (in one way or another and within reason).
[/quote]

There is no hatred here, just a bit sick and tired of the endess litany of excuses the apologists have at their disposal.

And yes, it is a very dark place.