Aqualani..Keane part 2

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38040.msg1019660#msg1019660 date=1261495922]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38040.msg1019654#msg1019654 date=1261495337]
Myth.

Looking ahead to the near future with the likely prospect of Mascher not being here, I'd move Stevie back to being our holding CM.

Rafa has admitted that his groin problem could affect Stevie for the rest of his career, and if thats true then maybe (given his age too) we will have to face up to the fact that we'll see less of those bursting runs that we've become used to. Stevie playing here should also help to extend his career by a couple of years also IMO.

Aquilani from the very limited viewings we've had of him looks like he could play in SG's spot, and when he's fully fit and ready thats where i think Rafa intends to play him.

Rafa with this signing almost certainly had one eye on the future.

[/quote]

There's some logic in that, but it ignores the fact that Gerrard is easily our second most potent goalscorer. He'd struggle to score that many from DM, and Aquilani or whoever replaced him in attacking midfield would struggle to fill his boots.

[/quote]

I wonder how much longer we can expect Stevie to continue to rack up 20 goals a season from that position though Bunny?

To me anyway his groin problems are clearly stopping him making those bursts that we used to see so regularly from him in every game. He has 4 goals (not sure if any pens in that total), so maybe we can't rely on SG getting us so many each season?

I just personally think that Aquilani was signed to take SG's place, with Stevie moving into more of a Alonso/Mascher role.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38040.msg1019639#msg1019639 date=1261493597]
Yeah, but my point is we haven't seen him play in that role enough to judge whether or not he's effective in it yet, Robin.
[/quote]

Sure, but on current viewings I'm not convinced.

I am however, pretty sure he's about as good a player in the final third as we've got - although this may seem a bit of a premature statement.

I'm actually a bit scared that he's too full of quick ideas to actually be able to play with most of our team.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38040.msg1019660#msg1019660 date=1261495922]


There's some logic in that, but it ignores the fact that Gerrard is easily our second most potent goalscorer. He'd struggle to score that many from DM, and Aquilani or whoever replaced him in attacking midfield would struggle to fill his boots.

[/quote]

The above is why 433 is the right choice - just it doesn't look like happening.

Unless Rafa gets sacked

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38040.msg1019662#msg1019662 date=1261496479]
Which is bizarre really because it's a blindingly obvious solution.
[/quote]

It depresses me more than the results.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=38040.msg1019189#msg1019189 date=1261425507]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1018948#msg1018948 date=1261393615]
Hansern sort of misses the point
[/quote]

Nah, I understood it alright. It's just a bit crap writing some rumour gossip shite to base the fact that he thinks Rafa has decided Alberto can't hack it.

I'd rather he wrote something after the season, then 40 mins in to his LFC career.
Then it would be a bit more believeable and not so sensionalistic written.


[/quote]

You might be joking in which case - my bad. But Aqua is by far the worst signing of the season - no one else is even in the running. He cost 20m and has played less than 90 minutes in 5 months. It's pretty bloody hard to get a worse signing than that.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=38040.msg1019677#msg1019677 date=1261499968]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=38040.msg1019189#msg1019189 date=1261425507]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1018948#msg1018948 date=1261393615]
Hansern sort of misses the point
[/quote]

Nah, I understood it alright. It's just a bit crap writing some rumour gossip shite to base the fact that he thinks Rafa has decided Alberto can't hack it.

I'd rather he wrote something after the season, then 40 mins in to his LFC career.
Then it would be a bit more believeable and not so sensionalistic written.


[/quote]

You might be joking in which case - my bad. But Aqua is by far the worst signing of the season - no one else is even in the running. He cost 20m and has played less than 90 minutes in 5 months. It's pretty bloody hard to get a worse signing than that.
[/quote]

In that case what about Yuri Zhirkov then?


A. He cost more
B. He's played less (prem debut as a sub v West Ham)

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38040.msg1019680#msg1019680 date=1261500429]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=38040.msg1019677#msg1019677 date=1261499968]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=38040.msg1019189#msg1019189 date=1261425507]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1018948#msg1018948 date=1261393615]
Hansern sort of misses the point
[/quote]

Nah, I understood it alright. It's just a bit crap writing some rumour gossip shite to base the fact that he thinks Rafa has decided Alberto can't hack it.

I'd rather he wrote something after the season, then 40 mins in to his LFC career.
Then it would be a bit more believeable and not so sensionalistic written.


[/quote]

You might be joking in which case - my bad. But Aqua is by far the worst signing of the season - no one else is even in the running. He cost 20m and has played less than 90 minutes in 5 months. It's pretty bloody hard to get a worse signing than that.
[/quote]

In that case what about Yuri Zhirkov then.


A. He cost more
B. He's played less.

[/quote]

That ignores the point that the Chelsea never really needed him.

Aquilani was supposed to be crucial to our season.

 

[Paddy]

He wasn't brought in to replace one of their key players. They have more than adequate cover. We have Lucas. And Plessis. And Spearing. We have shite.
Plus Chelsea are top of the table and looking good value for the title. Yuri Zhirkov is not the worst signing of the season. Aquilani is so far, considering if we had of bought someone cheaper, injury free, we could well be doing a lot better.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Fair points Squiggs/Paddy.

Oh how nice it must be to be able make £20m signings and not need them?

 

[Squiggles]

True, Rafa certainly does pay a higher cost for his mistakes, simply because there's a lot more at stake. It's no excuse though. It simply means he has to do his research on players before they arrive, and to my mind, he hasn't been.

Anyway, Aquilani's going to come good, because he's a fine footballer.

 

[Niall K]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=38040.msg1019601#msg1019601 date=1261491091]
Del and Anita - well from what we've seen, Rafa *has* only tried to play him in Alonso's position, and so far it hasn't looked much use.

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38040.msg1019541#msg1019541 date=1261483592]That Rafa remark about Aquilani not being very good at tackling was the first giveaway.
[/quote]

When was that remark? It was recently right? I think then, it suggests that he did want to play Aquilani in Alonso's position (although he knew they weren't exactly the same player) but he's clearly been disappointed.

The problem with Rafa is that for all his "experimentation" he's usually too stubborn to try the obvious things.

We might be lucky in the sense that Mascher's ban will lead to Gerrard playing CM, and then if Aquilani comes off the bench he might get tried out in an advanced postion
[/quote] Or we could be unlucky and have the joy of watching Lucas and Aurelio line up in the middle of the park.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38040.msg1019690#msg1019690 date=1261502372]
True, Rafa certainly does pay a higher cost for his mistakes, simply because there's a lot more at stake. It's no excuse though. It simply means he has to do his research on players before they arrive, and to my mind, he hasn't been.
Anyway, Aquilani's going to come good, because he's a fine footballer.
[/quote]

Come off it Squiggs, how do you come up with that theory?

He of course has made a number of shite buys (like every other manager i might add), but to suggest that he's not doing his research on potential players is a little unfounded, no?

I haven't seen anywhere near enough of Aquilani yet to come up with any opinions of him (good buy or not), but from what i've read he certainly sounds like a very decent footballer. Hopefully we'll get to see what he's like on a regular basis in a LFC shirt over the rest of the season.

 

[Squiggles]

Keane, Dossena, Aquilani.

People on here had massive concerns about Robbie Keane, mate. It had the potential to be doomed from day one and so it proved. There were also doubts about his mentality. Have you seen he's going to be striped of the Spurs captaincy for organising a Christmas party without permission? Seems odd for a manager who goes on about mentality so often to buy a player with these doubts. And before you say Pennant and Bellamy, they were bargain basements signings are arguable worth a slight risk - Bellamy in particular.

Dossena, well, the report about Rafa never having seen him play have to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. But he was the most expensive defender in our history, and probably one of the worst to wear the shirt. That's quite an achievement.

And the whole Aquilani situation is growing stranger by the day.

It just a hunch mate, but there's been far too many recent mistakes in the transfer market for it to be completely dismissed.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38040.msg1019701#msg1019701 date=1261505220]
Keane, Dossena, Aquilani.

People on here had massive concerns about Robbie Keane, mate. It had the potential to be doomed from day one and so it proved. There were also doubts about his mentality. Have you seen he's going to be striped of the Spurs captaincy for organising a Christmas party without permission? Seems odd for a manager who goes on about mentality so often to buy a player with these doubts. And before you say Pennant and Bellamy, they were bargain basements signings are arguable worth a slight risk - Bellamy in particular.

Dossena, well, the report about Rafa never having seen him play have to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. But he was the most expensive defender in our history, and probably one of the worst to wear the shirt. That's quite an achievement.

And the whole Aquilani situation is growing stranger by the day.

It just a hunch mate, but there's been far too many recent mistakes in the transfer market for it to be completely dismissed.
[/quote]


I see your point when it comes to Keane mate, i just think it's generally more of a case of the manager making plain old mistakes when it comes to some of the players abilities. For all of his faults i just don't see a lack of research being one of them, this is a man that seems to be infatuated with attention to detail.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38040.msg1019706#msg1019706 date=1261507144]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38040.msg1019701#msg1019701 date=1261505220]
Keane, Dossena, Aquilani.

People on here had massive concerns about Robbie Keane, mate. It had the potential to be doomed from day one and so it proved. There were also doubts about his mentality. Have you seen he's going to be striped of the Spurs captaincy for organising a Christmas party without permission? Seems odd for a manager who goes on about mentality so often to buy a player with these doubts. And before you say Pennant and Bellamy, they were bargain basements signings are arguable worth a slight risk - Bellamy in particular.

Dossena, well, the report about Rafa never having seen him play have to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. But he was the most expensive defender in our history, and probably one of the worst to wear the shirt. That's quite an achievement.

And the whole Aquilani situation is growing stranger by the day.

It just a hunch mate, but there's been far too many recent mistakes in the transfer market for it to be completely dismissed.
[/quote]


I see your point when it comes to Keane mate, i just think it's generally more of a case of the manager making plain old mistakes when it comes to some of the players abilities. For all of his faults i just don't see a lack of research being one of them, this is a man that seems to be infatuated with attention to detail.

[/quote]

Which is kind of why I think it wasn't done in these cases, for whatever reason; the mistakes seem too big and too illogical to be the conclusion to long, considered thought on the matter. But yeah, it's just speculation.

 

[manwithnoname]

So he researched in the *minutest detail* players like Drossena, Lucas, Keane, Morientes, Josemi, Skrtel, Insua, Paletta, Tennants, Gonzalez, Nunez, Sissoko and Leto?

So as to leave absolutely *nothing* to chance?

Oh dear.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1019719#msg1019719 date=1261509290]
So he researched in the *minutest detail* players like Drossena, Lucas, Keane, Morientes, Josemi, Skrtel, Insua, Paletta, Tennants, Gonzalez, Nunez, Sissoko and Leto?

So as to leave absolutely *nothing* to chance?

Oh dear.
[/quote]

What he said ^^

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1019719#msg1019719 date=1261509290]
So he researched in the *minutest detail* players like Drossena, Lucas, Keane, Morientes, Josemi, Skrtel, Insua, Paletta, Tennants, Gonzalez, Nunez, Sissoko and Leto?

So as to leave absolutely *nothing* to chance?

Oh dear.
[/quote]

Maybe he uses up so much of his time on researching these players that he forgets to spend any time researching his squad's current form, his strongest starting eleven and the tactics and formations that he should be using.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=38040.msg1019726#msg1019726 date=1261511678]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1019719#msg1019719 date=1261509290]
So he researched in the *minutest detail* players like Drossena, Lucas, Keane, Morientes, Josemi, Skrtel, Insua, Paletta, Tennants, Gonzalez, Nunez, Sissoko and Leto?

So as to leave absolutely *nothing* to chance?

Oh dear.
[/quote]

Maybe he uses up so much of his time on researching these players that he forgets to spend any time researching his squad's current form, his strongest starting eleven and the tactics and formations that he should be using.
[/quote]

I think it's the other way around, which is why he often overcomplicates everything.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38040.msg1018887#msg1018887 date=1261368316]
I really fucking hate the comparison to Keane, it doesn't make sense on any level whatsoever; Keane never, even from the day he was signed, had a set role within the side. It was never logical, he has a world-class player in Gerrard occupying his territory.

All Aquilani has to do is to be better than Lucas, which is like asking anyone to be less of a cunt than David Walliams, i.e - not that difficult. I despised all the speculation when Aquilani was injured, but ever since his Father has suggested his son is fully fit, it makes the whole process very odd indeed.

If Rafa really did spend £20M on a player and he isn't better than Lucas, I'm sorry, but regardless of stature he really has to go.
[/quote]
Err, he didn't spend £20m on him...yet.

Apart from that I agree.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1019719#msg1019719 date=1261509290]
So he researched in the *minutest detail* players like Drossena, Lucas, Keane, Morientes, Josemi, Skrtel, Insua, Paletta, Tennants, Gonzalez, Nunez, Sissoko and Leto?

So as to leave absolutely *nothing* to chance?

Oh dear.
[/quote]

Barring a couple of players all you've listed is a whole host of bargain basement signings.

I think it's quite obvious that for a club like ours, where always going to be taking a chance on players that cost what they did (no matter how much you know about them).

 

[manwithnoname]

So what's the monetary *cut-off* point for the fabled and esteemed 'Benitez attention to detail' to kick in?

Is it 7m? Drossena?
6m? That fucking cunt Lucas?

Or is it around the 2 mill to free mark where Benitez thinks 'Oh fuck it, I don't give a shit, sign anyone, I can't even be arsed to watch him on youtube'?

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38040.msg1019760#msg1019760 date=1261514179]
So what's the monetary *cut-off* point for the fabled and esteemed 'Benitez attention to detail' to kick in?

Is it 7m? Drossena?
6m? That fucking cunt Lucas?

Or is it around the 2 mill to free mark where Benitez thinks 'Oh fuck it, I don't give a shit, sign anyone, I can't even be arsed to watch him on youtube'?
[/quote]

Don't be silly Bren.

For me it's just a given that Rafa being Rafa, would not sign a player that he hadn't done his homework on.

I just don't expect to find too many future LFC stars out of a bunch of cheap signings.

*If you are going to reply please remember your Christmas present*

 

[gene hughes]

All this stuff about Benitez being obsessed and having squizillions of DVDs of players and files and working 18 hours days and all that jazz is a load of horseshit.

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

Maybe he has gallons of porn instead, and he is the source of our mysterious spammers.

 

[keniget]

We used to talk a lot about the squaddie merry go round in Rafa's first few years - at least I did as I found it hugely frustrating and a bit of a flawed strategy - and the incremental improvement that was achieved with each transfer window.

That is what ultimately fucked Rafa over. He relied on gaining that bit of improvement after selling off many of his previous signings, however when he brought in Keane, Dossena, and Degen, he got no return for his money and this time a squad that was far worse off in terms of quality and options.

 

[Peatcheo]

Amongst Mascher fancying Barcelona and Aquilani possibly maybe not being what we all thought, is anyone else depressed neither of these news stories/myths have Lucas involved!?

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38040.msg1019694#msg1019694 date=1261503633]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38040.msg1019690#msg1019690 date=1261502372]
True, Rafa certainly does pay a higher cost for his mistakes, simply because there's a lot more at stake. It's no excuse though. It simply means he has to do his research on players before they arrive, and to my mind, he hasn't been.
Anyway, Aquilani's going to come good, because he's a fine footballer.
[/quote]

Come off it Squiggs, how do you come up with that theory?

He of course has made a number of shite buys (like every other manager i might add), but to suggest that he's not doing his research on potential players is a little unfounded, no?

I haven't seen anywhere near enough of Aquilani yet to come up with any opinions of him (good buy or not), but from what i've read he certainly sounds like a very decent footballer. Hopefully we'll get to see what he's like on a regular basis in a LFC shirt over the rest of the season.


[/quote]

I don't really agree with the theory from Squigs that he hasn't done his research properly - at least not in all cases. The Dossena issue has bugged me from day one but otherwise I think we've largely got what we paid for and what we expected and........ largely what Rafa expected.

I just am not convinced, to this point, that the vision Rafa has of a team is what will win the title. There were concerns when he bought our South American winger whom even immigration questioned was good enough - but it was fairly early in his tenure and he had to learn the game.

But he's six years into his tenure now and we still have too many players who either need time on the ball or don't have the athletic prowess to cause problems. I truly believe that Aquilani will fall into this trap - very fine player when given a little bit of time on the ball but never struck me as someone who would do well in the physical, faster english league. Like the team we put out against Arsenal, he would almost certainly be tremendous in Spain because people, we have an excellent team for La Liga.

I'd back us to do better against Barca, Real and the rest than any other english team but that vision of a team usually struggles in the epl. Last season we had Xabi, Mascher, Gerrard and Torres wreaking havoc but, once Alonso departed, it has exposed how lacking in thrust and creativity we are in the centre of the park - last season we seemed to by-pass it with longer passing. Now we don't have that Gerrard and Torres look shadows of themselves, Mascher and Carra see waves of attackers coming at them in a never ending barrage. The result is our best players are being shut out of the game, our midfield is being shown up as lacking the presence required and a slightly weaker defence is facing greater challenges with a predictable result.

Rafa has gotten a number of transfers right; Torres and Xabi are shining examples. I just think they are players who would do well in either country whereas the others (Gonzales, Lucas, Morientes, Dossena) would do very well in Spain.

 

[peekay]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=38040.msg1019952#msg1019952 date=1261531366]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38040.msg1019694#msg1019694 date=1261503633]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38040.msg1019690#msg1019690 date=1261502372]
True, Rafa certainly does pay a higher cost for his mistakes, simply because there's a lot more at stake. It's no excuse though. It simply means he has to do his research on players before they arrive, and to my mind, he hasn't been.
Anyway, Aquilani's going to come good, because he's a fine footballer.
[/quote]

Come off it Squiggs, how do you come up with that theory?

He of course has made a number of shite buys (like every other manager i might add), but to suggest that he's not doing his research on potential players is a little unfounded, no?

I haven't seen anywhere near enough of Aquilani yet to come up with any opinions of him (good buy or not), but from what i've read he certainly sounds like a very decent footballer. Hopefully we'll get to see what he's like on a regular basis in a LFC shirt over the rest of the season.


[/quote]

I don't really agree with the theory from Squigs that he hasn't done his research properly - at least not in all cases. The Dossena issue has bugged me from day one but otherwise I think we've largely got what we paid for and what we expected and........ largely what Rafa expected.

I just am not convinced, to this point, that the vision Rafa has of a team is what will win the title. There were concerns when he bought our South American winger whom even immigration questioned was good enough - but it was fairly early in his tenure and he had to learn the game.

But he's six years into his tenure now and we still have too many players who either need time on the ball or don't have the athletic prowess to cause problems. I truly believe that Aquilani will fall into this trap - very fine player when given a little bit of time on the ball but never struck me as someone who would do well in the physical, faster english league. Like the team we put out against Arsenal, he would almost certainly be tremendous in Spain because people, we have an excellent team for La Liga.

I'd back us to do better against Barca, Real and the rest than any other english team but that vision of a team usually struggles in the epl. Last season we had Xabi, Mascher, Gerrard and Torres wreaking havoc but, once Alonso departed, it has exposed how lacking in thrust and creativity we are in the centre of the park - last season we seemed to by-pass it with longer passing. Now we don't have that Gerrard and Torres look shadows of themselves, Mascher and Carra see waves of attackers coming at them in a never ending barrage. The result is our best players are being shut out of the game, our midfield is being shown up as lacking the presence required and a slightly weaker defence is facing greater challenges with a predictable result.

Rafa has gotten a number of transfers right; Torres and Xabi are shining examples. I just think they are players who would do well in either country whereas the others (Gonzales, Lucas, Morientes, Dossena) would do very well in Spain.
[/quote]

I agree with you on this point. He has bought a number of players who posses a subset of attributes required for succeeding in the premier league and not all of them. And this shows in our style of play. One argument might be that such players cost money. However, the fact that he has not been able to deliver two players in the 5 - 12 million bracket who turned out to be a quality premier league attacking player is hurting him.

 

[TheBunnyman]

I'm generally persuaded by that post Wizardry, but... what makes you think Dossena would be a success in Spain? They have lots of quick technical players, while Doss is fat and slow and not particularly skilful. It's rather damning to Serie A that he did well there.

I think he'd be ace in the local Sunday pub league however.