Ukraine vs England

[rurikbird]

Obviously Ukraine are huge underdogs and I don’t think anyone seriously believes we can get past England. The difference in player quality is monumental. But sometimes having no expectations can be a good thing - let England deal with the pressure and just have fun on the pitch and enjoy the moment. And this team knows how to have fun - they are a far cry from some of the ultra-defensive, cynical and boring Ukraine teams of the past; they have easily won their qualifying group with Portugal and Serbia, scoring 17 and conceding only 4, achieving a historic win over the defending champions in Kyiv and thrashing Serbia 5:0.

This team has a nice blend of youth and experience with the likes of an 18-year-old CB phenom Zabarny protected by the experienced DM pairing of Stepanenko-Sydorchuk and the diminutive young #10 from Dynamo Shaparenko alternating with Atalanta’s well-established Malinovskyi. Finally, in Andriy Shevchenko they have someone who has consistently achieved success at the top level and he clearly managed to instill the same fearless attitude in his players.

Of course, England was Sheva’s downfall as a player and it may well be that his coaching fairytale run will also find a stumbling block in England… Anyway, I’m looking forward to the game and I think this will not be as straightforward as many pundits seem to think. For anyone looking for a little primer on the history of Ukrainian football, I recently stumbled on this article: it’s not very well-written to be honest, but at least there is some background in English and some tidbits about Lobanovskyi and Ukrainian football during the USSR times. I’m too young to have experienced those times myself and mostly stopped following Ukrainian football in recent years, but I did grow up watching Lobanovskyi’s 3rd and last great Dynamo team in the late 90’s- early 2000’s and there are still echos of some of his ideas in the likes of Klopp.

 

[peekay]

Enjoyed reading that article. Thanks for posting it.

 

[rurikbird]

Enjoyed reading that article. Thanks for posting it.

If you enjoyed that, you will really enjoy the Jonathan Wilson article linked and quoted in that Ukrainian article, which goes deeper into how Lobanovskyi used his science background and mindset to transform football. One thing to note is that even though Lobanovskyi was by far the most successful among the Ukrainian managers, these ideas about collective nature of football and pressing as a primary attacking weapon predate him and are probably the biggest stylistic difference between Ukrainian football and that of Russia and other former USSR countries.

 

[Hansern]

Great read Ruri. I have to say I enjoy seeing you write 5:0. It reminds me of the Bundesliga and growing up watching Kaiserslautern etc.

 

[Modo]

I read something about some disliking Sheva in Ukraine because he speaks russian during interviews.

 

[HC]

I fully expect the Ukraine match to be a cluster fuck.

I refuse to believe England can operate at the professional level under Southgate required to probably best Ukraine and then Denmark and reach the final.

 

[Bradley]

I heard someone on a podcast yesterday suggest that this might be an opportunity to rest a few players ahead of the semi final.

Madness.

 

[tomasjj]

England playing three out of four potential games in the knock out rounds at Wembley.
1/8, 1/2, and final. Not on.

 

[dantes]

Just lucky the random draw turned out massively in their favour, that's all, nothing to see here.

 

[Frogfish]

England playing three out of four potential games in the knock out rounds at Wembley.
1/8, 1/2, and final. Not on.

You mean as opposed to one country playing all games at home previously?

 

[The Nomad]

England playing three out of four potential games in the knock out rounds at Wembley.
1/8, 1/2, and final. Not on.

Indeed.. the quarter finals should be at Wembley too.

 

[Hansern]

England playing three out of four potential games in the knock out rounds at Wembley.
1/8, 1/2, and final. Not on.

Saw that Ukrainian fans, and I'm guessing maybe English aswell, would have to chose about going to Rome to attend the game there or maybe stay in London in case of a semi final. Given travel restrictions and quarantine you cant do both.

 

[The Nomad]

Saw that Ukrainian fans, and I'm guessing maybe English aswell, would have to chose about going to Rome to attend the game there or maybe stay in London in case of a semi final. Given travel restrictions and quarantine you cant do both.

English fans have been told not to travel, as they will not be allowed in the ground unless they have been in Italy for longer than 14 days.

 

[Hansern]

English fans have been told not to travel, as they will not be allowed in the ground unless they have been in Italy for longer than 14 days.

Yeah, saw Sky run the story now. Thats one big negative with playing in different countries this summer.

 

[Raz]

I heard someone on a podcast yesterday suggest that this might be an opportunity to rest a few players ahead of the semi final.

Madness.

Hahahaha good ol England. Thing is, the players they’d bring in are likely to be better than the ones rested.

 

[rubans]

If you enjoyed that, you will really enjoy the Jonathan Wilson article linked and quoted in that Ukrainian article, which goes deeper into how Lobanovskyi used his science background and mindset to transform football. One thing to note is that even though Lobanovskyi was by far the most successful among the Ukrainian managers, these ideas about collective nature of football and pressing as a primary attacking weapon predate him and are probably the biggest stylistic difference between Ukrainian football and that of Russia and other former USSR countries.

[mention]rurikbird [/mention] have you ever read Dynamo by Andy Dugan? I read it 20yrs ago and was one of the best footy books I read. Centerred around the club’s defiance against Nazi occupation during WW2.

 

[tomasjj]

That book by Wilson "Behind the Curtain - football in Eastern Europe" is very good.

 

[Halmeister]

2 nil England. Easy.

*vomits*

 

[peekay]

@rurikbird Thanks once again for those articles. At some point, we should create a separate thread where folks can post interesting articles like these. History of football, socio-political aspects, etc. I had some nice articles on the East Bengal - Mohun Bagan derby in Kolkatta ( highest recorded attendance 131781). I remember having a long discussion with one of my friends who was from that place about the social aspects of it - Mohun Bagan fans were traditional Kolkattans whereas East Bengal fans were Bangladeshi migrants during the partition. Anyways, at some point, if we have time, let us create a thread where we can post such articles.

 

[Red Bird]

France v Switzerland, Netherlands v Czech Republic (and even Croatia v Spain) ought to be cautionary tales. Underestimate anyone at your own peril.

 

[Halmeister]

It's hard to get caught out when you play a flat back 9

 

[The Nomad]

Ukraine will have fans.. England won't.. it'll be closer than some people think.

 

[Judge Jules]

Plus they're no mugs anyway. If we waltz in there thinking we've only got to turn up, we could well get turned over instead.

 

[dantes]

Aaaaaaaaahahahahahaaaaahahaha you love to see it.

 

[rurikbird]

Andriy Shevchenko’s modern methods have revolutionised Ukraine
The coach has drawn on his Italian schooling to improve the team and takes on England at Euro 2020 with a flexible squad

by Jonathan Wilson

Five years ago, Ukraine lost 1-0 to Poland in Marseille to complete a miserable Euros campaign in which they lost all three games and failed to score. Their football was leaden and uninspired, predicated on three lumbering holding midfielders and the vague hope that either Andriy Yarmolenko or Yevhen Konoplyanka might do something spectacular. Yarmolenko remains but as Ukraine prepare for a European Championship quarter-final, almost everything else has changed beyond recognition.
The man responsible is Andriy Shevchenko, but there was a sense of trepidation when he was appointed after the last Euros; his only coaching experience had been as assistant to Mikhail Fomenko in that tournament. But Shevchenko’s vision of football is very different to that of Fomenko. Having played for Milan and Chelsea, his vision of the game is a modern one.

Raised at Dynamo Kyiv, Shevchenko’s first guru was, of course, Valeriy Lobanovskyi. “He gave me the understanding that there are no trifles in football,” Shevchenko said. “No detail of the work can be ignored. I listened to him with my mouth open, catching every word.”
And Lobanovskyi listened to him after he had moved to Milan, taking notes as Shevchenko explained what he had learned under Alberto Zaccheroni and then Carlo Ancelotti, who became his second mentor. “Our principles,” Shevchenko explained, “are compactness, balance between attack and defence, playing through short- and medium-range passes. We want to control the ball.
“There are times when you have to defend. At that point it is already necessary to build a certain concept of the game through the defence, when it is necessary to conduct a quick counterattack. Or vice versa – when you need to maintain the pace of the game through controlling the ball, and then impose our game. The team is going through all these processes now.”
His time in Italy clearly made a huge impression, as seen in his coaching staff which includes the great former Milan full-back Mauro Tassotti, and his tactical video analyst Andrea Maldera. “He has changed in terms of understanding his role,” Maldera said of his boss. “He is now more authoritative, more confident in himself.”
Maldera describes his own job as being “to study, watch, propose, have my own ideas” but working to general principles. In possession, “we basically ask two important things: recognise where the numerical advantage is, and identify the free spaces that we can occupy”. Without the ball, much depends on the opponent, but essentially the better the team Ukraine play against, the less likely they are to press high.

In that, perhaps the influence of a third coach can be seen. “I learned a lot from [José] Mourinho,” Shevchenko said. “He manages the team in a very interesting way – you must always find something valuable at any moment. His mentality is that you always need to believe.”
Given how Shevchenko’s time at Chelsea went, that may seem surprising, but he clearly feels a lot of warmth for the club and supported them in the Champions League final. That raised eyebrows, not just because it meant backing a team owned by a Russian oligarch at a time when Ukraine and Russia are at war, but because he openly celebrated Kai Havertz’s winner, despite the goal resulting in part from a mistake by his national captain, Oleksandr Zinchenko.
Ukraine’s improvement under Shevchenko has been clear. Although they finished behind Iceland and Croatia to miss out on the 2018 World Cup, the federation retained faith and was rewarded as Ukraine won promotion to Nations League Group A and passed undefeated through Euros qualifying, beating Portugal and Serbia. The plan was simple: a 4-3-3 with Taras Stepanenko sitting at the base of midfield with Zinchenko and Ruslan Malinovskiy creating in front of him and the centre-forward Roman Yaremchuk flanked by two of Ukraine’s glut of talented wingers.

But last year, results slipped and Ukraine were relegated from Nations League Group A. Shevchenko began to modify his approach and in March used a back three in a World Cup qualifier away to France, securing a 1-1 draw.
The 4-3-3 returned for the start of this tournament, but an injury to Oleksandr Zubkov in the opening game against the Netherlands disrupted his plans. The experiment with advancing Malinovskyi to the left flank didn’t work, leading to the return of the back three for the last 16.

That suggested both Shevchenko’s boldness and his flexibility, as he left out Malinovskyi, preferring a deep-lying midfield pair of Stepanenko and Serhiy Sydorchuk, supported by Mykola Shaparenko. That in turn meant Zinchenko switching to left wing-back, a decision vindicated as he scored the first goal and set up the winner. If anything, though, the other flank, where Oleksandr Karavaev linked with Yarmolenko, was the more consistently threatening, and Ukraine were at their most dangerous when switching play rapidly.
That almost certainly will be the model against England as well, depending on just how great the toll of an exhausting period of extra time was. Had, as it seemed they would, Ukraine gone home after the limp defeat by Austria, Euro 2020 might not have seemed much better than Euro 2016. The Sweden win, though, changed everything. It’s not just that Ukraine are in a quarter-final, it’s that Shevchenko has shown the way to the future.

 

[Frogfish]

So ... almost time.

The England team I'd choose. Bearing in mind that the Ukraine played an extra 30 mins of extra time and have had a day less to recuperate. It's going to be hot ... around 26C at KO (32C during the day). We must rest players that whether they are first choice or not they are not going to have as much energy as those that have played a lot less.

This isn't going to be an easy game at all ... but playing fresher legs will help.

Got to be some changes, Rice was cramping up and out on his feet and there are 4 players on Yellows (one more and they'd miss the Semi were England to make it through); Maguire, Rice, Philips and Foden (which is why I guess Foden won't start).

Revert to 4-2-3-1.

We have a lot of strength in depth up front, I don't see any risk in rotating and bringing in fresher players raring to go. Saka is recovering from a minor injury so I guess Southgate will use that as an excuse to either bring back Mount or start Sancho. Kane's just been plodding around, he'll start. I'd rest Sterling, he's started every match and Grealish has looked good in his cameos.

.................................... Pickford

James ......... Stones .................. Mings ........ Chilwell

..................... Hendo ................. Philips

Sancho ................... Grealish .................. Mount

.................................... Kane


If all is going to plan then White, Bellingham and Foden can come on for minutes. If we are in trouble, or some of those players are struggling, then Maguire, Walker, Shaw, Saka, Foden and Rice will be on the bench.

Of course Southgate won't make many changes, one or two. Mount coming back.

 

[Stevesquash]

So ... almost time.

The England team I'd choose. Bearing in mind that the Ukraine played an extra 30 mins of extra time and have had a day less to recuperate. It's going to be hot ... around 26C at KO (32C during the day). We must rest players that whether they are first choice or not they are not going to have as much energy as those that have played a lot less.

This isn't going to be an easy game at all ... but playing fresher legs will help.

Got to be some changes, Rice was cramping up and out on his feet and there are 4 players on Yellows (one more and they'd miss the Semi were England to make it through); Maguire, Rice, Philips and Foden (which is why I guess Foden won't start).

Revert to 4-2-3-1.

We have a lot of strength in depth up front, I don't see any risk in rotating and bringing in fresher players raring to go. Saka is recovering from a minor injury so I guess Southgate will use that as an excuse to either bring back Mount or start Sancho. Kane just been plodding around, he'll start. I'd rest Sterling, he'd started every match and Grealish has looked good.

.................................... Pickford

James ......... Stones .................. Mings ........ Chilwell

..................... Hendo ................. Philips

Sancho ................... Grealish .................. Mount

.................................... Kane


If all is going to plan then White, Bellingham and Foden can come on for minutes. If we are in trouble, or some of those players are struggling, then Maguire, Walker, Shaw, Saka, Foden and Rice will be on the bench.

Of course Southgate won't make many changes, one or two. Mount coming back.

I take your point, but there are way too many changes here. He might bring in hendo, he might change saka as he wasn't quite as effective. But that will be it imo

 

[Frogfish]

I take your point, but there are way too many changes here. He might bring in hendo, he might change saka as he wasn't quite as effective. But that will be it imo

Which is exactly what I said in the very last line

 

[Halmeister]

If Ukraine win, I'm going out and buying their shirt

 

[Bradley]

If Ukraine win, I'm going out and buying their shirt

It is a nice shirt!