Attitude

[rurikbird]

Putting aside discussions about transfers and long-term squad issues, something is seriously wrong with our attitude if this is how we are starting games. We saw it from the very first game of the season at Fulham – the players are not fully concentrated, not ready for a fight. We used to shock opposing teams with our tempo and intensity, now we're the ones who need to catch up to the opponents' tempo and while we're gradually getting to grips with the game, we often make decisive mistakes like Gomez yesterday.

It's an indictment on this team that almost 3 months into the season this problem does not appear to be any closer to getting fixed - I'm sure Klopp tried everything he could to break this pattern and it's still there for all to see.

 

[moron]

The problems we have had are not consistent in the way they happen - other than most of the shit happens on the right back side, and that is usually when TAA plays.
If you break down those goals we have conceded in the matches listed in that tweet - there is a measure of bad - luck involved in each one. Of the ones I remember -

1) Take last night's game - it was a simple pass that was careless, compounded by Alisson slipping, and VVD giving up on the run.
2) Arsenal - high line and ball over the top from left to right, but started by us not getting to the 2nd ball in time.
3) Defenders being outwitted - like the United game, and Arsenal game
4) not enough control exerted in midfield and losing the ball too easily while we are all out of position. This same pattern has been even happening from our set pieces in the opposition end where the simplest of balls can break our back line.

Yes concentration, and responsibility have been major issues, but at the same time, there has been a lot of bad luck when the opposition move initially starts that leads to the goal. But this season - I think the introduction of Elliot has not helped while our other midfielders seem incapable of keeping up with the pace of opposition intensity. He is a kid after all and cannot be expected to rescue us. As a team it is mentally and physically tired.

I will also add that the situation with TAA - is very strange, the guy just does not even look right - you look at his face, and its like he has a serious mental health problem, and I actually blame all the attention from the England camp etc. We can have a whole other thread on this.

 

[rurikbird]

I don’t think luck has much to do with it. There were a number of games where we were lucky not to concede early on - I think I remember a couple of posts being hit and Alli’s close-range saves. Overall, I don’t think we’ve been particularly unlucky this season - we’re getting what we deserve.

 

[moron]

I don’t think luck has much to do with it. There were a number of games where we were lucky not to concede early on - I think I remember a couple of posts being hit and Alli’s close-range saves. Overall, I don’t think we’ve been particularly unlucky this season - we’re getting what we deserve.

We have loads of faults - but I also see other things in the game which you cannot deny:

1) Against both Leeds, and Forest - we had enough chances to win both games with better composed finishing.
2) Lots of situations in the final third where we don't do enough in the attacking sense - players out of position, essentially that instinct is not tuned well enough.
3) The speed of play has to increase in the final third to capitalize on opposition defenders being momentarily out of position - that is the best way to break down the low block teams. The build up with the extra pass etc. is just to fucking slow at times.

The effort from the team is there - this is shown by us having most of the ball in the games - our approach play is just too shit, along with our defensive decision making.

Regardless of midfield issues - we should have enough quality to beat the teams we have been losing against and drawing against this season. We just are not making it fucking count. This is the issue that Klopp is faced with - people ask what is bad luck? - to me bad luck is related to timing being wrong and that is what this team is suffering from. The counter-pressing, and predicting the 2nd ball is all fucking wrong in the games we should be winning. Get that right - even with the midfield options we have and we win most games providing our forward line can put away the chances they are getting.

 

[Modo]

Could the world cup be a culprit here. Van Dijk wanting to stay fit etc.

 

[StevieM]

I think you’re right @rurikbird and it makes total sense - we’ve moved away from that high-octane attack to trying to control games.

When you add up all the “perfect storm” issues - shortened pre-season, injuries, lineup changing every game, tactics changing, aging squad, loss of Mane, integration of new players, mental & physical fatigue, loss of form, World Cup distractions - it’s all contributing and impacting.

Look at the 2 teams at the top - out of 12 games, Arsenal have had 10 players start 9 or more games and City have had 8 start 9 or more - with us it’s 6 - and when you consider that 6 of ours includes Fabinho & Trent who are struggling for form - it starts to paint a picture.

It’s been called out multiple times - it starts from the front - the press not being as intense, structured or organised as previous years, flows into the midfield that’s not covering as much ground and feed into the defence that’s not as compact as previous seasons.

I still maintain it’s fixable with the current squad (short term at least) but it requires a settled team and system which will mean sacrifices.

Jota has been our biggest loss.

 

[rurikbird]

Could the world cup be a culprit here. Van Dijk wanting to stay fit etc.

I suspect it could be for some players. We will know for sure in January.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

Also it's very hard to change the way the team plays during mid-season, especially when the games come in hard and fast, and with injuries piling up as well.

It's easy to pin it on the manager but i struggle to think what else can he really do that's A LOT different ?

However, going 3 at the back is the most sensible thing short-term me thinks.

 

[localny]

I also think emotionally, and physically, everyone is spent after last season. We ran the players into the ground. And they were incredible. And still lost out on the main prizes.

 

[rurikbird]

Related to the topic of this thread, I really believe if Klopp had a squad of youngish, hungry players with lots of rotation options - think Leeds quality, but with a slightly deeper squad - his team would have better results in the Premier League than we had this season. Here we have one of the best motivators and tacticians in world football, someone who doesn’t require superior individual talent in every position in order to win, whose whole ethos is how to be successful through superior organization and attitude - coaching a team full of top-class players that is struggling in exactly these aspects: organization and attitude.

For the first time the team we currently have doesn’t feel fully like a Klopp team anymore - you cannot be consistently outrun and want to win less than the opponent and play for Klopp, something has to give.

 

[SummerOnions]

I was talking with my brother about it this weekend. I still think the loss in Paris and the shit the fans had to go through cut deeper on everyone than expected. I think it broke some of our players

 

[Hansern]

Lallana said as much in an interview before we played Brighton, and I'm guessing he has some very good contacts at the club.
Coming so close to the league title, CL and everything that happened in Paris just exhausted everyone and just flatlined several of the players.
We're still seeing that in the games we play.

When you drop a couple of percentages at the top you get punished.

 

[Hansern]

I suspect it could be for some players. We will know for sure in January.

I dont think thats the case with van Dijk in all honesty. He's played just about every minute so far even with little niggles etc.

 

[Frogfish]

Lallana said as much in an interview before we play Brighton, and I'm guessing he has some very good contacts at the club.
Coming so close to the league title, CL and everything that happened in Paris just exhausted everyone and just flatlined several of the players.
We're still seeing that in the games we play.

When you drop a couple of percentages at the top you get punished.

I've been saying this ad nauseam. More games than anyone else, a longer season that anyone else and stress at insane levels week in week out most of the season, the shortest recuperation period and straight into high pressure (CL games). What is more likely, that half of our players are suffering from mental and physical fatigue or that they aged 10 years in a few weeks which resulted in a 30% drop off in kms run per match?

 

[tomasjj]

Imagine a club packed with sports scientists not managing to work out that we were burnt out and needed some fresh blood.

 

[StevieM]

Related to the topic of this thread, I really believe if Klopp had a squad of youngish, hungry players with lots of rotation options - think Leeds quality, but with a slightly deeper squad - his team would have better results in the Premier League than we had this season. Here we have one of the best motivators and tacticians in world football, someone who doesn’t require superior individual talent in every position in order to win, whose whole ethos is how to be successful through superior organization and attitude - coaching a team full of top-class players that is struggling in exactly these aspects: organization and attitude.

For the first time the team we currently have doesn’t feel fully like a Klopp team anymore - you cannot be consistently outrun and want to win less than the opponent and play for Klopp, something has to give.

This is where I diverge slightly from you - Klopp could get better results from a team of Leeds-level players, short term, like Big Jesse - but not long term.

Look what happened Forrest a week after their result against us, etc

This doesn’t look like an “old” Klopp team, but I think that’s because he knew it needed to evolve.

I don’t think replacing the current team with younger and hungrier players while reverting back to “heavy metal football” gets the result we want it to.

I also don’t believe half the team has “lost its kegs” overnight or isn’t committed or isn’t good enough (not saying you’re suggesting all these things) and I also don’t thing it’s just about not signing a few players.

Second half of the season we always reduce rotation - we need to get to that point.

 

[RedStar]

Lallana said as much in an interview before we played Brighton, and I'm guessing he has some very good contacts at the club.
Coming so close to the league title, CL and everything that happened in Paris just exhausted everyone and just flatlined several of the players.
We're still seeing that in the games we play.

When you drop a couple of percentages at the top you get punished.

I don't buy this, the drop off started well before the CL final. We ended last season scrapping through games, starting poorly and giving away cheap goals.

 

[moron]

I think there is hope somewhere in us all that we can get this team back to winning ways. Let's be honest about something... no team has found it easy to beat us or draw against us in the PL. At no point have we dropped to the depths that either Chelsea or Man United have.

 

[SummerOnions]

We need to get back to 1-0 wins and start with the defence. Klopp did it before I believe he can do it again but yes fresh blood is needed. I hope we can get two signings in January

 

[mom]

I've been saying this ad nauseam. More games than anyone else, a longer season that anyone else and stress at insane levels week in week out most of the season, the shortest recuperation period and straight into high pressure (CL games). What is more likely, that half of our players are suffering from mental and physical fatigue or that they aged 10 years in a few weeks which resulted in a 30% drop off in kms run per match?

Completely agree, but it gets to the point where you think that although that’s clearly a valid point, they could be putting more in than they are.
Second half of the season will tell us more.

 

[Best Believe It]

I'd be staggered if we don't sign two midfielders in early January. There's just no getting over the fact that the squad needs at least a refresh if not a rebuild and that has to start at the first opportunity if we're to have any chance of getting in the top four.

 

[StevieM]

We need to get back to 1-0 wins and start with the defence. Klopp did it before I believe he can do it again but yes fresh blood is needed. I hope we can get two signings in January

I’m the opposite - defence starts from the fro t - it was ever thus the Liverpool way.

There’s a systemic problem and there’s individual errors - JoGo & Trent’s individual errors are being amplified by the systemic problem - fix that, fix the press get into that regular patterns of play and control zone and the individual errors will even out… a bit.

 

[tomasjj]

weird that we go for a diamond - it is a mistake

firstly, as it exposes our most weak area, midfield
secondly, as we were actually looking more stable in a 4231/442 regular set up with two at the base of midfield

 

[keniget]

This is where I diverge slightly from you - Klopp could get better results from a team of Leeds-level players, short term, like Big Jesse - but not long term.

Look what happened Forrest a week after their result against us, etc

This doesn’t look like an “old” Klopp team, but I think that’s because he knew it needed to evolve.

I don’t think replacing the current team with younger and hungrier players while reverting back to “heavy metal football” gets the result we want it to.

I also don’t believe half the team has “lost its kegs” overnight or isn’t committed or isn’t good enough (not saying you’re suggesting all these things) and I also don’t thing it’s just about not signing a few players.

Second half of the season we always reduce rotation - we need to get to that point.

I don't think it's a case of heavy metal football or nothing. There is an inbetween. Guardiola's teams (or at least his Barca team) work hard too.

It has always been a case of this team being greater than the sum of it's parts. We have some great players sure (though we have overrated some of them) but individually we are nowhere near good enough to dominate on talent alone.

The collapse of the system and the general hunger / work ethic of the players has only served to further underline this truth.

Whether it's heavy metal football or not, you need fresh blood and youth. Look at Real Madrid... they're still playing with the reanimated corpses of Modric et al but they have players like Valverde that can run all day long.

 

[jan]

INTENSITY

 

[JohnnyRocket]

I'd be staggered if we don't sign two midfielders in early January. There's just no getting over the fact that the squad needs at least a refresh if not a rebuild and that has to start at the first opportunity if we're to have any chance of getting in the top four.

We'll wait until 31 Jan, and bring a loan in.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

INTENSITY

Even a robot needs a regular charge or repairs. And we’re not super humans.

I was very critical earlier in the season about our intensity but after realizing the depth of our issues, especially the mental and physical aspect, I’m a little more empathetic now.

We need fresh legs. And until then, things will get very messy.

 

[jan]

Was actually just referring to that cunt of a book. The video of Ljinders walking to the players and handing them copies made me sick more than the Karius holiday video

 

[Best Believe It]

We'll wait until 31 Jan, and bring a loan in.

But only on the basis that all of our midfielders are out injured for the rest of the season

 

[Tinto]

I don't buy this, the drop off started well before the CL final. We ended last season scrapping through games, starting poorly and giving away cheap goals.

Only Mo looked tired in that run-in though.

Now our entire team does.