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Poll Would you have Rafa back

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Would you have Rafa back


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Here is the story of my brother's car difficulties this year.

He had a decent car that worked really well for a few years, but then it started to fuck up and was more hassle than it was worth. He kept spending loads of money trying to sort it out but in the end realised it wasn't worth it. Perhaps foolishly he thought that any other car would be better than this one, so he didn't really think about it, got shut, and because he needed one for work he went and bought the first car he went to look at. It's been nothing but trouble and he's found himself having to shell out again, but this time he's doing his homework.

He doesn't want the first car back. And I wouldn't have posted this silly fabley shit if it wasn't completely true.
 
Maybe he could hire a car, well known for its reliability, to tide him over until a car that he really wants comes on the market.
 
do I want rafa back? I don't know, I feel I owe rafa a deep debt of gratitude because I thought he 'got' us and was the first to bring the owners bullshit under scrutiny.

this is off the pitch stuff, ON the pitch I thought rafa was tactically excellent but I also felt he didn't trust his team to simply get on with things. he would give players specific orders to get results rather than build a team strong enough who could simply sweep all before them by simply being the better team rather than negating and eventually over powering the opposition.

you can't argue with the results in europe as liverpool often exceeded the sum of their parts and beat teams with better personnel (barca, AC, chelsea, etc) but in the league I thought rafa was trying to out think opposition that had no tactics beyond parking the bus.

if all I craved was european success then I would take rafa back no question but at this moment in time the thing I crave the most is the league and frankly I dont think rafa is the person to do that even though he came very very close in his penultimate season.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43232.msg1236766#msg1236766 date=1293037338]
do I want rafa back? I don't know, I feel I owe rafa a deep debt of gratitude because I thought he 'got' us and was the first to bring the owners bullshit under scrutiny.

this is off the pitch stuff, ON the pitch I thought rafa was tactically excellent but I also felt he didn't trust his team to simply get on with things. he would give players specific orders to get results rather than build a team strong enough who could simply sweep all before them by simply being the better team rather than negating and eventually over powering the opposition.

you can't argue with the results in europe as liverpool often exceeded the sum of their parts and beat teams with better personnel (barca, AC, chelsea, etc) but in the league I thought rafa was trying to out think opposition that had no tactics beyond parking the bus.

if all I craved was european success then I would take rafa back no question but at this moment in time the thing I crave the most is the league and frankly I dont think rafa is the person to do that even though he came very very close in his penultimate season.[/quote]


Indeed he did Neil, and the thing that stopped him doing it was probably the mistrust of his players that you mention above
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=43232.msg1236799#msg1236799 date=1293039383]
Houllier was just as important as Rafa.
[/quote]

Houllier got us back on Track.

Rafa got to two two European Cup finals in 3 years, it too GinSoak 17 years and countless millions to do that.

Rafa also made people DREAD drawing us in the knockout stages.

Give credit where its due.
 
With Rafa’s apparent departure from Inter Milan, there’s a growing bandwagon calling for his return to the Liverpool hot seat. For some, that time can’t come soon enough. But as ever, it’s a complex issue.

Rory Smith’s article in the Telegraph neatly articulates both sides of the argument, and it’s well known which side I fall on. But the vital fact is that there will always be some kind of argument; it seems there’s little middle ground. (Oliver Kay also wrote an excellent piece that appears in the latest edition of the excellent Well Red Magazine, discussing the way the media views both Benítez and Hodgson.)

I find the notion that Benítez is anything less than an excellent manager baffling; always have, always will. That a man who has won every type of trophy available – domestic league title (twice, in a major league, with an outsider), domestic cup, domestic ‘super cup’ (Community Shield), Uefa Cup, European Cup, European Super Cup and now World Club Championship (and also improved Liverpool in the league to levels not seen for two decades) – is somehow an incompetent duffer is just ludicrous. He has his faults, but that is some CV, and all achieved since Roy Hodgson’s last trophy in 2001.

By last season, thanks to the awful owners Hicks and Gillett, Liverpool were selling more players than they were buying. Then there was Chief Executive Christian Purslow, who had no prior experience of running a football club, and whose decisions in the summer left a lot to be desired; the good he did in helping to oust the owners was undone by a short-sighted approach to the footballing side of things.

So it was against this backdrop that Liverpool experienced what was deemed an ‘unacceptable’ season, even though the Reds performed better in terms of winning games (18) and gaining points (63) than in the final year of Houllier’s reign (just 16 wins and 60 points). Indeed, even if you average out Houllier’s final two seasons, it still equals only 62.5, a fraction less than the 2009/10 total of 63. (Rafa’s final two seasons saw an average that was ten points better than Houllier’s full six-season average.) Currently, the Reds are on course for just 49 points, well below last year’s figure.

My view was that Rafa was an exceptional manager whose job at Liverpool had probably become untenable because of the general dysfunctional nature of the club, and because several players wanted him out. Even Mourinho at Chelsea found such a confluence of such factors hard to live with; results started to dip, and he was sent packing.

Had NESV arrived at the end of last season, I think (and it’s just a hunch) that Rafa would still be manager today. I can only guess at how the relationships would have unfolded; I can see similarity in vision (the desire to buy young players on the way up and produce a successful Academy, and the possession of a winning mentality), but also potential clashes, given that few managers are happy to work with a Director of Football. But I think Benítez had a similar approach to Comolli, judging by their track records in the transfer market.

But of course, part of the reason why Benítez became seen as a megalomaniac is because there was a distinct lack of football knowledge at the top of the club: a vacuum of suitable thinking, with clueless owners and rookies running the club; and because, until 2009, he couldn’t make the necessary changes to an under-performing youth system, which was producing tight-knit teams full of endeavour, but no first-team talent. Even now, no youngster released by the club has gone on to become a proper Premier League star, let alone Liverpool standard (although after a few years away, Adam Hammill shows some promise.)

Benítez started to micro-manage everything because that need arose, and because he is a perfectionist (which can be a flaw as well as a virtue). He clashed with Rick Parry and Steve Heighway over the Academy, but to my mind, rightly so; just look at the talent that’s there now, as well as the Barcelona gurus running the institution. This will prove the Spaniard’s greatest legacy for the club, I’m sure. None of this is to say that he didn’t make mistakes, but arguably no more than any other top manager makes.

While I think that NESV would have stuck with Rafa, and given him the support needed to succeed, bringing him back now is a very different issue. It’s one thing to keep someone, because it changes little, and you can finesse things behind the scenes; it’s quite another to sack someone and bring someone else back to a club where, for all his allies, he retains some enemies.

The same old wounds would be opened up, and if the media were rabid in their treatment of him beforehand, you can only imagine how they’d be if one of their darlings was replaced by ‘the nasty foreigner’. (Of course, the club shouldn’t be swayed by the media, but they do add another layer of pressure.)

How Rafa performed at Inter does not alter my perceptions of how he performed at Liverpool. Essentially, with a mountain of injuries (no priests or sugar in sight), he had, after a promising start, experienced something similar to Capello in the summer: one bad month. Prior to the first game against Spurs his team’s style of play was being applauded, and but for a remarkable few minutes from Gareth Bale, a thrashing would have been all that people remembered from that particular game. Instead, Inter hit a wobble.

As it was, with a tired, aging team, he still qualified for the knockout stages of the Champions League for the 7th time in his personal eight appearances in the groups, and won the World Club Championship. The league form was average, but it ignores that the likes of AC Milan and Juventus were injecting a lot of new quality into the ranks, whereas Inter had instead sold Italian football’s best young player (Balotelli) and, with an aged squad, brought in no one of note. (For more on the issue, see this informative article for an interest assessment of his time in Italy.)

I have no doubt that Liverpool traded down in the summer. The biggest crime of Benítez’s replacement has been a failure to understand the approach demanded at one of the biggest clubs in the world; everything he’s done so far would be perfect for Fulham – where he excelled – but, to date, has been a total mismatch for Liverpool.

But he still has the job, and any manager who remains in his position always has the chance to prove his critics wrong. For as long as he remains it is his duty to try and get things right, and that includes the not-so-small task of adapting an approach and playing style that very few fans will ever accept.

(Even Bolton Wanderers fans – starved of success for decades longer than Kopites – were unhappy with such an approach, the entire time Gary Megson was there, even though they kept their head above water. Liverpool fans don’t want needlessly flashy football, but they do want a style they can buy into. On that score, Hodgson has yet to even come close to delivering, as evinced by a negative goal difference. It is his style of play and his comments to the media that have seen him fail to win the hearts and minds. Very quickly, Owen Coyle has done the exact opposite at Bolton, and while that doesn’t mean he could definitely do the same at Liverpool, it shows how a new approach with the same set of players can make all the difference.)

Rafa’s return to his home on Merseyside perhaps puts more pressure on Hodgson, but the current Liverpool manager has had a relatively easy ride from the media so far; if he thinks he’s under pressure, he has yet to face dealing with regular attacks from all the national papers (each one had at least one serial Benítez baiter) and from Sky Sports, whose key presenters were best pals with Rafa’s nemesis, Sam Allardyce, and others in the LMA cartel. Yes, the Kop chanted Kenny Dalglish’s name, but it’s not been non-stop attacks that Hodgson has had to field, despite some pretty big failings on the evidence so far. (Of course, I’d much rather see a Liverpool manager with the media on his side, but not to excuse mediocrity and a failure to grasp what’s required, and imply that Liverpool fans are daft as a result.)

It shows how much the area means to the Spaniard; his intention was always to return to the Wirral. To quote Anfield Road writer Andrew Heaton: “I also think Rafa’s ‘weakness’ of ‘fighting for what you believe in’ was what the unbreakable bond with the city and supporters was forged uponâ€.

Again, this is where Hodgson has fallen short, perhaps by trying to be too diplomatic, so as to not upset anyone within the game (including the FA, whom he had hoped would be his employers this summer, with the position of England manager apparently still his main dream).

But you only have to look at how ‘diplomatic’ Alex Ferguson is to anyone who criticises either him or his club to see how standing up for your club (and by proxy, its fans) is essential. Perhaps Benítez picked too many fights, but it’s better than having no fight at all. He fought for the fans, and most appreciate that. Ferguson, Mourinho, Benítez and even Wenger often get into verbal spats with adversaries because they share a certain mentality. They don’t get into them in order to get an historic draw, either.

In the meantime, Roy Hodgson remains in charge, and I don’t see that changing before the summer at the earliest. He deserves to be backed in the transfer market in the way that any other manager does, but Damien Comolli must make sure that, unlike the raft of older players brought in during the summer (most of whom were average at best, and have contributed to a poor season), the signings must be flexible enough to serve the club beyond Hodgson’s tenure.

And then, in the summer, NESV will be able to sit down and make an informed decision about how Hodgson performed based on the entire year, and take a good look at the viable alternatives. I very much doubt that Benítez’s name will be on the list of potential candidates, should a new manager be sought – but that doesn’t mean his time definitely won’t come again. In football, you never know.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/12/the-return-of-rafa/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheTomkinsTimes+(The+Tomkins+Times)
 
I'm glad I skipped to the bottom to read the source.

I'm not reading it but can translate for others anyway

A long pointless analysis of both sides of the argument, an attempt at not sounding at all biased. Conclusion, Rafa should come back. Copyright Tomkins.
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=43232.msg1236831#msg1236831 date=1293043481]
I'm glad I skipped to the bottom to read the source.

I'm not reading it but can translate for others anyway

A long pointless analysis of both sides of the argument, an attempt at not sounding at all biased. Conclusion, Rafa should come back. Copyright Tomkins.
[/quote]

Exactly
 
Even if the board where considering having rafa back I couldn't see him wanting to have camolli working over him. Lampshades an all that.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43232.msg1236855#msg1236855 date=1293048720]
Indeed, which is one major reason why I don't think the board would entertain the idea in the first place.
[/quote]

Which is pretty much what Tomkins is saying and largely agreeing with.

His recent stuff has been an improvement on last years largely laborious and exhausting tomes.

I haven't a clue why everyone's getting hot and bothered about this one, albeit it;s the easy thing to do (rather than read it).
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=43232.msg1236819#msg1236819 date=1293041265]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=43232.msg1236799#msg1236799 date=1293039383]
Houllier was just as important as Rafa.
[/quote]

Houllier got us back on Track.

Rafa got to two two European Cup finals in 3 years, it too GinSoak 17 years and countless millions to do that.

Rafa also made people DREAD drawing us in the knockout stages.

Give credit where its due.
[/quote]

I was.
 
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=43232.msg1236860#msg1236860 date=1293049233]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43232.msg1236855#msg1236855 date=1293048720]
Indeed, which is one major reason why I don't think the board would entertain the idea in the first place.
[/quote]

Which is pretty much what Tomkins is saying and largely agreeing with.

His recent stuff has been an improvement on last years largely laborious and exhausting tomes.

I haven't a clue why everyone's getting hot and bothered about this one, albeit it;s the easy thing to do (rather than read it).
[/quote]


I did read it,Buddha..
 
is this thread the combo of "anyone but rafa" posters and "anyone but budgie" posters? I'd actually read through the thread and find out for myself but seeing how 21 people want him back i really don't want to read most of this thread
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=43232.msg1236882#msg1236882 date=1293052558]
is this thread the combo of "anyone but rafa" posters and "anyone but budgie" posters? I'd actually read through the thread and find out for myself but seeing how 21 people want him back i really don't want to read most of this thread
[/quote] You should try elsewhere. This is deffo the most anti-Rafa site on the whole interweb thing.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43232.msg1236256#msg1236256 date=1292948369]
Dreamy, you thought Budgie was a good idea, and were optimistic about this season.

Thus proving, beyond any reasonable doubt, that you're a clown, who is wrong about everything, always.

Give yourself an early Christmas present, and shut the fuck up
[/quote]

I thought anyone but Rafa wasa good idea you clown.

Roy hasn't cut it thus far but I would rather keep him than take Rafa. Rafa has completely lost his touch.

Keane was a failure hence proving your statement wrong and making you look like a clown, something which is happening alot more of late.
 
I'd be happy to have Paul Ince installed as our manager tomorrow. For that reason that's why I want Benitez back.. Because he's 1000 times cleverer than Incey.. Things are that desperate..
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=43232.msg1236891#msg1236891 date=1293054809]


Roy hasn't cut it thus far but I would rather keep him than take Rafa. Rafa has completely lost his touch.

[/quote]

At least Rafa had a touch to lose.
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=43232.msg1236891#msg1236891 date=1293054809]


Roy hasn't cut it thus far but I would rather keep him than take Rafa.


[/quote]

I have read many quotes on this issue, and you are the 1st I have seen with this point of view. Fucking hell!
 
Could you imagine us taking back a Manager that we gave a 6M payoff to 4 months ago?

It'll never happen.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=43232.msg1236907#msg1236907 date=1293057796]
Could you imagine us taking back a Manager that we gave a 6M payoff to 4 months ago?

It'll never happen.
[/quote]

That's the core reason for it being a non-starter..
 
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=43232.msg1236910#msg1236910 date=1293058036]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=43232.msg1236907#msg1236907 date=1293057796]
Could you imagine us taking back a Manager that we gave a 6M payoff to 4 months ago?

It'll never happen.
[/quote]

That's the core reason for it being a non-starter..
[/quote]

Why would it matter now? It was under the twats tenure and now any payment etc has been swallowed up in the takeover.....

NESV got the club at a bargain price, so why would they even give 2 shits about Rafa being paid off 6 Million a few months back?
 
I'd imagine it would be the principle, and that we as a club still with a massive turnover would have to cover more expenditure on a man who has just recieved 2 years wages from us.
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=43232.msg1236945#msg1236945 date=1293062704]
I'd imagine it would be the principle, and that we as a club still with a massive turnover would have to cover more expenditure on a man who has just recieved 2 years wages from us.
[/quote]

It doesn't and shouldn't work like that. New owners + debts cleared = fresh start (financially, because they are stuck with Roy)

if Rafa is the right person (non committal statement, although I can't empathise enough my disliking of the current manager) then it should and will have no bearing on whether or not NESV decides to hire him.
 
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