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Tottenham Riots

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[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1379675#msg1379675 date=1313276979]
What recourse do these parents have, really? I'm not making excuses for them, of course, but what can a parent do to a rebellious teenager who is dead set on behaving like a jerk? My understanding is that child protective services are pretty quick to go after parents who use physical force (this was certainly the case in Sweden while I lived there -- maybe not so much in Britain?). And parents who don't have much to give financially can't use that as much leverage against the kid. So, what can they be expected to do? And are these parents afraid of their bully teens as well?
[/quote]

The elephant in the room here, and in the wider national debate now starting about all this, is that Western society overall (absolutely not just in the UK) has some very big questions to ask itself about the environment it's created for family life. That's a whole other discussion and one which, if we started a thread about it, would probably go on for the full life of this website. All I'll say here is that changes - big ones - are needed and that, without them, at least part of any response to the immediate problem will find itself addressing the symptoms rather than the real causes of what went wrong on our streets last week. That still has to be done, but it won't be enough for a lasting solution.

That said, I would make the following specific points in response to your (perfectly fair) questions. First and most immediately, parents can and should turn their children in to the police as some have already been doing, not just now but in the future too when those children are guilty of crimes. The attitude of too many parents that they "defend" their kids against proper admonishment by schools and other lawful authorities is very damaging and must stop. Additionally, there is a lot of help available for parents via the Children's Services Depts.of local authorities to get troubled families back on track before things get to such an extreme stage. Those Children's Services Depts.will come down hard on excessive punishment, but in my experience of such matters (which is considerable) the occasional slap on the legs or suchlike probably won't attract much attention, certainly not prosecution unless it becomes frequent.
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1379706#msg1379706 date=1313284228]
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=46360.msg1378912#msg1378912 date=1313199486]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517

soz for those who don't live in England, and may be unable to see this.
[/quote]

Does no one have a comment on this?!?

'White's have become black'
[/quote]

i think he's right that what you might shorthand as 'black gangsta' culture has been appropriated by a lot of whites and asians, but i fail to see what that's really got to do with the riots. i don't really equate the rioting with that culture, personally, but more just scrotes in general; the little cunts in manchester were almost entirely white, weren't they? possibly you could make a case that rap etc played a part in the rampant materialism of the looters, but i'm far from convinced .

my other comment would be that i really really hate that owen jones prick who seems to crop up on every other topical debate show i try to enjoy.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46360.msg1379658#msg1379658 date=1313269780]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1379651#msg1379651 date=1313268232]
Punish the criminal, not somebody that happens to be related to them.

Fine, if it can be demonstrated they are in some way responsible then they should be held to account, but if all they've done is had a kid who is a little shit (and that isn't necessarily in itself an indication of being a shit parent) then how can it possibly be considered fair or just to punish somebody for another's crime?

Can those of you in support of this notion please just make it absolutely clear that you advocate the punishment of somebody for a crime they did not commit - because on the one hand that sounds exactly like what you're saying, and yet on the other hand I cannot see how any reasonable person could approve of that
[/quote]

So lets keep this dead simple. A parent who shows no responsibility for his teenage son who goes around, vandalising cars, abusing and threatening pregnant women, stealing from shops and when you try to discuss it with them, their reaction is to threaten you with a hammer or beat someone with a golf club, that parent should not have any link or responsibility for the shite his son is causing? Really? Come and live it SR because that above is a real story and we were not the only family terrorised by this little cunt and his family. Most people stood down and took it because they were bullied and intimidated by said family. I stood up to them.

Wait until your wife gets threatened by a little shit with being stabbed when she's not looking and then called a fucking cunt on her own doorstep because she asks them not to climb all over her car.

Do you not think these parents exist? They are not made up by the Daily Mail you know, they fucking exist and I'm willing to bet that many of the kids involved in the rioting have parents who don't give a fuck about their actions or better still, think they are a chip off the old block.

Apologies for the agressive tone, but the apologism I have read in many places regarding these riots is starting to wind me up. If that makes me a Daily Mail reader then I'm comfortable with that label.
[/quote]

Its a funny thing, but many of the local families with louts for children have the same names as the families that had louts for children when i was a kid, I can (but won't) say a string of names from my youth that was known as bad, and I see the same names in the echo nowadays.
 
Oh and is the Millionairs daughter caught red handed in a car full of 30k's worth of stolen goods who is due in court under charges of being a 'getaway driver' from a bad family?

I see she decided to take her day in court, instead of being dealt with by the magistrates, so Daddys lawyer can get in and plead she was victimised or some such shit.
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1379638#msg1379638 date=1313264917]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46360.msg1379617#msg1379617 date=1313262141]
Are Wandsworth Council correct to serve an eviction notice on one of their tenants who's offspring was involved in the riots?

Discuss.
[/quote]

It's an absolutely fucking ridiculous notion - evicting someone for something their kid has done? Where do you draw the line? Will everyone whose child commits a crime be evicted? Fuck it, might as well stop old folks state pension if their grown up offspring gets sent down.

Unbelievable
[/quote]

Am inclined to agree.

Its not practical and I would be surprised if it gets through the courts anyway. They would not evict children because of the actions of a parent, so I am not sure they should do it the other way round either.

These parents might be responsible in part or they might not be. Its not for these courts to decide that really, it would be for criminal courts.
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1379963#msg1379963 date=1313338039]
Huh?, so if both parents go to jail then the kids stays at home?
[/quote]

No, but generally courts don't tend to evict families with children if they can avoid doing so.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1379960#msg1379960 date=1313337939]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1379638#msg1379638 date=1313264917]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46360.msg1379617#msg1379617 date=1313262141]
Are Wandsworth Council correct to serve an eviction notice on one of their tenants who's offspring was involved in the riots?

Discuss.
[/quote]

It's an absolutely fucking ridiculous notion - evicting someone for something their kid has done? Where do you draw the line? Will everyone whose child commits a crime be evicted? Fuck it, might as well stop old folks state pension if their grown up offspring gets sent down.

Unbelievable
[/quote]

Am inclined to agree.

Its not practical and I would be surprised if it gets through the courts anyway. They would not evict children because of the actions of a parent, so I am not sure they should do it the other way round either.

These parents might be responsible in part or they might not be. Its not for these courts to decide that really, it would be for criminal courts.
[/quote]

Disagree. If the parents in question have broken their tenancy agreements the civil courts, not their criminal counterparts, are the right forum for such cases.

BTW children do indeed get evicted if their parents are. How could it be otherwise?
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46360.msg1380052#msg1380052 date=1313348991]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1379960#msg1379960 date=1313337939]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1379638#msg1379638 date=1313264917]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46360.msg1379617#msg1379617 date=1313262141]
Are Wandsworth Council correct to serve an eviction notice on one of their tenants who's offspring was involved in the riots?

Discuss.
[/quote]

It's an absolutely fucking ridiculous notion - evicting someone for something their kid has done? Where do you draw the line? Will everyone whose child commits a crime be evicted? Fuck it, might as well stop old folks state pension if their grown up offspring gets sent down.

Unbelievable
[/quote]

Am inclined to agree.

Its not practical and I would be surprised if it gets through the courts anyway. They would not evict children because of the actions of a parent, so I am not sure they should do it the other way round either.

These parents might be responsible in part or they might not be. Its not for these courts to decide that really, it would be for criminal courts.
[/quote]

Disagree. If the parents in question have broken their tenancy agreements the civil courts, not their criminal counterparts, are the right forum for such cases.

BTW children do indeed get evicted if their parents are. How could it be otherwise?
[/quote]

But the parents would not have broken anything - the children would have done.

I meant that if a parent did break a tenancy agreement and the council moved to evict there is a good chance that the court would not evict if there were children there.
 
Depends on the circumstances. The last few days notwithstanding, councils don't go to such lengths at the drop of a hat, so when they *do* issue a possession summons the court is likely to be faced with a fairly damning body of evidence against the adults involved. The children's welfare will be treated as paramount but that's not going to provide the parents with a permanent guarantee that no eviction will take place. There are other orders a court can make to safeguard the children's interests if eviction ultimately has to go ahead.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1380056#msg1380056 date=1313349684]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46360.msg1380052#msg1380052 date=1313348991]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1379960#msg1379960 date=1313337939]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1379638#msg1379638 date=1313264917]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46360.msg1379617#msg1379617 date=1313262141]
Are Wandsworth Council correct to serve an eviction notice on one of their tenants who's offspring was involved in the riots?

Discuss.
[/quote]

It's an absolutely fucking ridiculous notion - evicting someone for something their kid has done? Where do you draw the line? Will everyone whose child commits a crime be evicted? Fuck it, might as well stop old folks state pension if their grown up offspring gets sent down.

Unbelievable
[/quote]

Am inclined to agree.

Its not practical and I would be surprised if it gets through the courts anyway. They would not evict children because of the actions of a parent, so I am not sure they should do it the other way round either.

These parents might be responsible in part or they might not be. Its not for these courts to decide that really, it would be for criminal courts.
[/quote]

Disagree. If the parents in question have broken their tenancy agreements the civil courts, not their criminal counterparts, are the right forum for such cases.

BTW children do indeed get evicted if their parents are. How could it be otherwise?
[/quote]

But the parents would not have broken anything - the children would have done.

I meant that if a parent did break a tenancy agreement and the council moved to evict there is a good chance that the court would not evict if there were children there.
[/quote]


Parents are legal guardians of their children so it this respect they've failed to control their children.
 
A family should not be evicted for something their child has done.

That's a ridiculous state of affairs, and creates many more problems that it solves.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46360.msg1380117#msg1380117 date=1313356311]
A family should not be evicted for something their child has done.

That's a ridiculous state of affairs, and creates many more problems that it solves.
[/quote]


It's even more ridiculous that families and neighbourhoods should remain terrorised by a child from a family that clearly lack parenting skills.


The only problem it creates is where they go and how they'll affect their new neighbourhood.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46360.msg1380117#msg1380117 date=1313356311]
A family should not be evicted for something their child has done.

That's a ridiculous state of affairs, and creates many more problems that it solves.
[/quote]

The eviction thing is a bit daft as is the suggestion that benefits be cut. Sadly the twats have to live somewhere as we can't vapourise them, and if they did not get money they would be knocking grannies on the head for their pension. They don't have money so you can't fine them. So you have to inflict pain or inconvenience, sadly pain is generally out of the question. So inconvenience, which brings us back to eviction and re-housing, it must be a pain in the arse for them, but we have to pay for the moving expenses presumably, and some poor twat has them as neighbours, although their old neighbours will be pleased, but they may get some other displaced looting family..............where am I going with this..............yes inconvenience .....make the parent report to the police station at 8.00am every Sunday Morning for three months with their offending kids, getting the bastards out of bed early on a Sunday will be a right royal pain in the arse, and if they don't lock them up for three years........simples, lets think about the pain again

regards
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1380122#msg1380122 date=1313356896]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46360.msg1380117#msg1380117 date=1313356311]
A family should not be evicted for something their child has done.

That's a ridiculous state of affairs, and creates many more problems that it solves.
[/quote]


It's even more ridiculous that families and neighbourhoods should remain terrorised by a child from a family that clearly lack parenting skills.


The only problem it creates is where they go and how they'll affect their new neighbourhood.
[/quote]

Yep, been there and experienced that.

But don't worry, the rights of the terrorisers have to be respected above those of the terrorised. Perhaps we should give them a free holiday so as to understand them?
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1380122#msg1380122 date=1313356896]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46360.msg1380117#msg1380117 date=1313356311]
A family should not be evicted for something their child has done.

That's a ridiculous state of affairs, and creates many more problems that it solves.
[/quote]


It's even more ridiculous that families and neighbourhoods should remain terrorised by a child from a family that clearly lack parenting skills.


The only problem it creates is where they go and how they'll affect their new neighbourhood.
[/quote]

So nick the kid - problem solved.

If it's only the child that is a menace to the neighbourhood, then it's unfair to punish a person for another's crime.

If the whole family are involved it's a different matter, but if removing the child removes the problem, how is it fair to punish the parents? Not every badly behaved kid has bad parents, and not all good kids come from good backgrounds. I'm not saying there's no connection, but this could go off on a massive nature/nurture tangent
 
If it can be shown that the parents have done all they can to turn things around, by all means deal with the child separately. Ditto if they've done something but not enough - there's help which can be offered to them for that (mind you, they should be made to accept it). Often though - I'd suspect most of the time actually - the distinction is an entirely artificial one. In those cases the offending children have turned into little savages as a direct result of negligent parenting, and there will have been all sorts of interventions by the statutory agencies before things get to the point of eviction. Those of you who appear to be arguing that no parents should be evicted based on their children's crimes are giving such families carte blanche to continue along the same path, which - with respect - is madness.
 
I think we need to clear something up - is anybody arguing that *no* families should be evicted, and is anybody arguing that *all* families should be evicted?
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1380253#msg1380253 date=1313394010]
I think we need to clear something up - is anybody arguing that *no* families should be evicted, and is anybody arguing that *all* families should be evicted?
[/quote]

I can't see the point of it at all as they have to live somewhere and will have to be re-housed and the taxpayer will end up paying the costs of the process, including putting the kids in new schools and paying for new uniforms etc etc etc. As I sad before some poor bugger is going to have them move in next to them at some point or other. Other than a mild inconvenience factor no point in it.

If you evict them where do they go?

regards



regards
 
I say we just start sending them to Australia again, the flights might be a bit pricey but we're onto a winner after the initial expense
 
Obviously if the family is a real pain in the arse and causes chaos in their neighbourhood then yes, the council could and probably would evict them. Is that necessarily the case here though?

Its possible that some of these little shits actually come from pretty respectable, though poor, backgrounds. Lots of kids go off the rails. Its not always the fault of the parent.

I mean, going by this logic Dot Cotton would have been evicted from Albert Square years ago wouldn't she?
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1380265#msg1380265 date=1313396412]
Obviously if the family is a real pain in the arse and causes chaos in their neighbourhood then yes, the council could and probably would evict them. Is that necessarily the case here though?

Its possible that some of these little shits actually come from pretty respectable, though poor, backgrounds. Lots of kids go off the rails. Its not always the fault of the parent.

I mean, going by this logic Dot Cotton would have been evicted from Albert Square years ago wouldn't she?
[/quote]

Genuine question.................Where do they go Richey?

regards
 
National service?

I can't really see any drawbacks of national service.

I know it's not necessary in this day and age for the nation but for it's citizens I don't see how it can be bad.

Not academic, that's fine , Learn some discipline in the armed forces and come out a few years later driven..

I have no idea if that's how it actually works in reality, ltw?
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46360.msg1380271#msg1380271 date=1313397097]

Genuine question.................Where do they go Richey?

regards
[/quote]

Depends on the area and depends on the family. Its not a common course of action anyway but the main reason it is done is for the benefit of other residents whose lives are being made a misery. It takes a very long time for it to come to that though, and a family would have to have had a long record of anti social behaviour.

If it is a family with kids under 18 then they would try to rehouse them I imagine but if not then they would just go onto the housing list. A lot of boroughs would probably do their best to persuade these families that they might enjoy life a little more in a different borough too!
 
Like most other organisations the armed services have become much smaller and more high-tech. They just couldn't cope with the influx of hundreds of thousands of callow youths on National Service.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=46360.msg1380289#msg1380289 date=1313398771]
Like most other organisations the armed services have become much smaller and more high-tech. They just couldn't cope with the influx of hundreds of thousands of callow youths on National Service.
[/quote]


Within an hour of my hometown alone in the s.e youve got half a dozen soon so to be redundant military bases more than capable In terms of size of becoming boot camps of sorts - of course the infrastructure on the whole would need some tweaking and updating, mind .

I'm not suggesting you hand the keys to apaches and an sa80 to every potential oik either
 
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