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Tottenham Riots

Ruairi - yes, I think there is more lack of respect (which is presumably what you meant 😉) in some quarters here than there is in parts of Europe. The reasons for it are obv.not simple but IMO include (a) the fact that there's a certain bolshiness in the British character at times - for which the world had cause to be grateful in the 20th century, but which is somewhat less of an advantage in peacetime - and (b) the fact that we're a VERY crowded little island which (c) nonetheless gets more immigration than it should, partly because of past government policies and partly because we're known as a soft touch by economic migrants from all over.

Ct - the class envy stuff is mainly a facile excuse being put by venal, mindless thugs as a smokescreen for thievery and general indulgence of their baser instincts. Among them are a small rump of anarchists out to exploit the situation for their own ends who, I suspect, have been busy spreading their poison into the kind of vacant minds only too ready to parrot it back in order to salve what's left of their own consciences.

And yes, entitlements do beget some people who regard themselves as automatically entitled. That of itself does not invalidate their provision, though it certainly does demand that such provision be targeted and properly administered. The fact that there will always be some weak-willed and dishonest people who abuse benefits cannot, it seems to me, justify leaving in the cold those who genuinely need the benefits in question.
 
The cunt who killed those 3 guys last night by running them over in his car should be executed "Fish Called Wanda" stylee - fucking cement his feet to the road and run him over very slowly with a cement roller.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46360.msg1377324#msg1377324 date=1312977601]
Ruairi - yes, I think there is more lack of respect (which is presumably what you meant 😉) in some quarters here than there is in parts of Europe.
[/quote]

In my opinion the media are largely to blame. In other European countries, the print and broadcast media treat the Government and other national institutions quite respectfully, whereas in Britain the establishment is mainly criticised and ridiculed. Doubtless those who have been on the streets over the past few nights spend little time watching "Newsnight," but the general media disregard for authority inevitably rubs off on them.
 
I'm not being all loony left about that teacher but it must have been tough for a black youth named Alexis growing up in Croydon. I mean that's a fucking tarts name, and not just any tart, a fucking whopper of a tart.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=46360.msg1377332#msg1377332 date=1312978757]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46360.msg1377324#msg1377324 date=1312977601]
Ruairi - yes, I think there is more lack of respect (which is presumably what you meant 😉) in some quarters here than there is in parts of Europe.
[/quote]

In my opinion the media are largely to blame. In other European countries, the print and broadcast media treat the Government and other national institutions quite respectfully, whereas in Britain the establishment is mainly criticised and ridiculed. Doubtless those who have been on the streets over the past few nights spend little time watching "Newsnight," but the general media disregard for authority inevitably rubs off on them.
[/quote]

The media in the UK is the way it is because that suits the mentality of the majority of people who live there.

Which is why incidents of the past few months will be old news (with minimal repercussion) in a few more months.
 
Tariq Jahan, whose son Haroon Jahan was killed, said he was nearby when it happened.

"My instinct was to help the three people, I did not know who they were but they had been injured.

"I was helping the first man and someone from behind told me my son was behind me.

"So I started CPR on my own son, my face was covered in blood, my hands were covered in blood.

"Why, why?"

He said his son, who was a mechanic, had been trying to protect the community as incidents were taking place elsewhere in the area. He said a petrol station along the road had been attacked.

"He was a very good lad, a good man starting at the beginning of his life and had his whole life ahead of him.

"I've got no words to describe why he was taken and why this has happened and what's happening to the whole of England.

"It makes no sense why people are behaving in this way and taking the lives of three innocent people."
 
This whole thing is about responsibility and kids need to realise that if they act the same as a 25 year old looting then they'll be subject to a similar sentence. That said, Cameron and co's determination to put this all down to the 'underclass' they created is bollocks. To suggest it is all poor people is bollocks, whethere most of them may be or not. To stop stuff like this happening in the future we need to stop the alienation and disaffection of the youth in question. If they feel like a part of society they are far less likely to destroy it. In the meantime though, the punishment should be swift and direct.
 
“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.” David Cameron, 1986.
 
[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1377312#msg1377312 date=1312976454]
This is all strange to me. I thought that wealth redistribution, strong social safety nets, socialized medicine, super high taxes on the rich, etc., were meant to ameliorate the plight of the poor? Yet there seems to be a strong class warfare element to these riots. So what exactly are all those programs (which are bankrupting both of our countries) doing if there is still among the beneficiaries such class envy that they are willing to do violence? I saw a quote from a couple of young ladies involved in the looting to the effect of "We are showing the rich people that we can do what we want." Maybe that's isolated thinking but really? Entitlements beget entitled people, perhaps?
[/quote]

You seem to be insinuating that the UK is representative of some kind of bastion of social justice, therefore making these riots a complete anomaly.

However, if this is the point you're trying to make, then you're mistaken. On the issue of wealth redistribution: the UK has the lowest social mobility out of any OECD country - http://www.oecd.org/document/51/0,3343,en_2649_34117_44566259_1_1_1_1,00.html

We also have one of the highest income gaps in the world - recent figures show us at a ratio of 7.21:1 (meaning the top 20% earn 7.21 times the bottom 20%) placing us 3rd, behind the Portugal (8:1) and the US (8.5:1), highest it's been since the 60s apparently and set to carry on in much the same vein - where 'good' jobs have seen real-world increases of 150% etc to their incomes over the last 30 years, 'bad' jobs have seen either little growth or in some cases, decline.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13663778

lansley2.gif


Our gini coefficient is poor (the measure of income inequality) placing us behind:

Lithuania, Italy, Estonia, Algeria, Australia, Spain, Tanzania, Laos, Poland, Vietnam, Egypt, Ireland, Indonesia, Greece, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Switzerland, Yemen, Bangladesh, Moldova, Belgium, Mongolia, France, Turkey, Tajikistan, Canada, South Korea, Albania, Romania, Netherlands, Pakiistan, Kyrgystan, Ethiopia, Belarus, Bulgaria, Austria, Croatia, Slovenia, Germany, Ukraine, Hungary, Finland, Bosnia and Herzegovenia, Slovakia, Norway, Czech Republic, Sweden, Japan and Denmark.

The majority of households in this country are not very rich:

British_household_income.jpg


The government (and previous governments, including Labour) are not really doing much about redressing this, despite what you may think and what they may say - their actions and the facts are a testament to this.

With regard to the super-high taxes on the rich, I assume you're referring to the 50p tax rate for those earning over £150K. Whilst this is high compared to a lot of countries in terms of the highest band, there are a few countries with an equal or higher rate - such as Austria (50% over €51K), Belgium (50% over €35K), Denmark (51.5% over 335 000DKK - about £40K, Japan (effective 50% over 18M Yen - about £140K), Netherlands (52% above €54K), Sweden (55% over 548 300SEK - about £55K).

So in actual fact, it's best described as high taxes on the super-rich, rather than the other way round. Given the historical context (it was once 83%, reduced by Thatcher to 63% and then 40%) it's not really 'super-high'.

Oh, and if you think *this* is what's bankrupting the UK and the US, then you really are blinded by your partisan loyalties
 
He might have a point:

@johnprescott Don't blame poverty. E.Africa knows poverty. UK has free eductn, hlthcare, school meals, benefits. Blame the death of 'shame'
 
But SR, we shouldn't be borrowing anything at all, never should have except in emergencies. Philosophically I don't agree with the concept of state, pragmatically I realise we're stuck with it. In the meantime tax rises alone aren't the answer. If we expect to operate not increasing the debt we need to generate 150 billion through extra taxes and cuts. Massve cuts. It doesn't matter what people are used to or what some assume to be rights, they're not affordable.
 
At the heart of government spending in every western society is entitlement programs.

And they are bankrupting all of us.
 
[quote author=The Duck link=topic=46360.msg1377378#msg1377378 date=1312983198]
tumblr_lppk2w3HjM1r1qajlo1_400.png

[/quote]
Does that lad know what he has stolen or in his panic did he just grab the first thing he see? Maybe he thinks a Tena Lady is some sort of blow-up doll?
 
[quote author=athensruairi link=topic=46360.msg1377381#msg1377381 date=1312983578]
[quote author=The Duck link=topic=46360.msg1377378#msg1377378 date=1312983198]
tumblr_lppk2w3HjM1r1qajlo1_400.png

[/quote]
Does that lad know what he has stolen or in his panic did he just grab the first thing he see? Maybe he thinks a Tena Lady is some sort of blow-up doll?
[/quote]

Maybe he thought it was an opera singer.
 
[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1377379#msg1377379 date=1312983287]
At the heart of government spending in every western society is entitlement programs.

And they are bankrupting all of us.
[/quote]

So you think that having social security programs are what caused the mess?

I'm tempted to ask you to back that up, but I'm also concerned I might actually decide I can't be bothered to prove you wrong and just call you names instead.

Let's hope for your sake you're never out of a job, eh?
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377359#msg1377359 date=1312981386]
“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.” David Cameron, 1986.
[/quote]

Hasn't that statement been shown to be fake?
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377373#msg1377373 date=1312982914]
But SR, we shouldn't be borrowing anything at all, never should have except in emergencies. Philosophically I don't agree with the concept of state, pragmatically I realise we're stuck with it. In the meantime tax rises alone aren't the answer. If we expect to operate not increasing the debt we need to generate 150 billion through extra taxes and cuts. Massve cuts. It doesn't matter what people are used to or what some assume to be rights, they're not affordable.
[/quote]

I don't know where the borrowing bit has come into this, but can I just ask if you own a house - and if you do did you pay cash or get a mortgage?
 
[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1377379#msg1377379 date=1312983287]
At the heart of government spending in every western society is entitlement programs.

And they are bankrupting all of us.
[/quote]

SPOT ON. Unfortunately the numbers who have to pay for those entitlement are dwinding, and are being squeezed more and more, and will continue to be squeezed until we have nothing left to give.
 
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=46360.msg1377387#msg1377387 date=1312984001]
[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1377379#msg1377379 date=1312983287]
At the heart of government spending in every western society is entitlement programs.

And they are bankrupting all of us.
[/quote]

SPOT ON. Unfortunately the numbers who have to pay for those entitlement are dwinding, and are being squeezed more and more, and will continue to be squeezed until we have nothing left to give.
[/quote]

And yet the ones who receive want more
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1377386#msg1377386 date=1312983915]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377373#msg1377373 date=1312982914]
But SR, we shouldn't be borrowing anything at all, never should have except in emergencies. Philosophically I don't agree with the concept of state, pragmatically I realise we're stuck with it. In the meantime tax rises alone aren't the answer. If we expect to operate not increasing the debt we need to generate 150 billion through extra taxes and cuts. Massve cuts. It doesn't matter what people are used to or what some assume to be rights, they're not affordable.
[/quote]

I don't know where the borrowing bit has come into this, but can I just ask if you own a house - and if you do did you pay cash or get a mortgage?
[/quote]

I borrowed based on an ability to pay it back over a fixed term and not with the full certainty that I was going to overspend my budget by 15 or 20% again this year and need to borrow that too. I borrowed once and that was it. The kind of borrowing the govt does is getting a credit card to pay off another credit card, all the time. It's the kind of borrowing that we all rightly try and discourage our friends from getting involved in. It's the kind of borrowing that leaves you entirely reliant on the whims and terms of your creditors.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=46360.msg1377385#msg1377385 date=1312983913]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377359#msg1377359 date=1312981386]
“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.” David Cameron, 1986.
[/quote]

Hasn't that statement been shown to be fake?
[/quote]

Probably. But this is good.

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/
 
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=46360.msg1377387#msg1377387 date=1312984001]
[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1377379#msg1377379 date=1312983287]
At the heart of government spending in every western society is entitlement programs.

And they are bankrupting all of us.
[/quote]

SPOT ON. Unfortunately the numbers who have to pay for those entitlement are dwinding, and are being squeezed more and more, and will continue to be squeezed until we have nothing left to give.
[/quote]

It's not spot on, it's fucking bullshit that only a fuckwit would come up with. If they were the problem then being as most of these programs were introduced *decades* ago, the entire world would have been fucked long ago.

In case you hadn't noticed, what bankrupted us was bankers gambling on something they didn't really understand, losing, and then expected us to bail them out.

So who are the ones swanning around acting like "the world owes them a living"?
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1377392#msg1377392 date=1312984575]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=46360.msg1377387#msg1377387 date=1312984001]
[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1377379#msg1377379 date=1312983287]
At the heart of government spending in every western society is entitlement programs.

And they are bankrupting all of us.
[/quote]

SPOT ON. Unfortunately the numbers who have to pay for those entitlement are dwinding, and are being squeezed more and more, and will continue to be squeezed until we have nothing left to give.
[/quote]

It's not spot on, it's fucking bullshit that only a fuckwit would come up with. If they were the problem then being as most of these programs were introduced *decades* ago, the entire world would have been fucked long ago.

In case you hadn't noticed, what bankrupted us was bankers gambling on something they didn't really understand, losing, and then expected us to bail them out.

So who are the ones swanning around acting like "the world owes them a living"?
[/quote]

Not really. When govt spending was around 35% GDP we didn't have to borrow much. At 45% GDP we have to borrow fuckloads. So borrowing was manageable in 2000 but now it's off it's tits. Mental in fact. The banks shouldn't have been bailed out, and the public sector shouldn't have been expanded. It's not one or the other, it's both.
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377390#msg1377390 date=1312984297]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=46360.msg1377385#msg1377385 date=1312983913]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377359#msg1377359 date=1312981386]
“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.” David Cameron, 1986.
[/quote]

Hasn't that statement been shown to be fake?
[/quote]

Probably. But this is good.

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/
[/quote]

That's excellent.
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377389#msg1377389 date=1312984216]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1377386#msg1377386 date=1312983915]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377373#msg1377373 date=1312982914]
But SR, we shouldn't be borrowing anything at all, never should have except in emergencies. Philosophically I don't agree with the concept of state, pragmatically I realise we're stuck with it. In the meantime tax rises alone aren't the answer. If we expect to operate not increasing the debt we need to generate 150 billion through extra taxes and cuts. Massve cuts. It doesn't matter what people are used to or what some assume to be rights, they're not affordable.
[/quote]

I don't know where the borrowing bit has come into this, but can I just ask if you own a house - and if you do did you pay cash or get a mortgage?
[/quote]

I borrowed based on an ability to pay it back over a fixed term and not with the full certainty that I was going to overspend my budget by 15 or 20% again this year and need to borrow that too. I borrowed once and that was it. The kind of borrowing the govt does is getting a credit card to pay off another credit card, all the time. It's the kind of borrowing that we all rightly try and discourage our friends from getting involved in. It's the kind of borrowing that leaves you entirely reliant on the whims and terms of your creditors.
[/quote]

That's not exactly true though Krump. The kind of borrowing the government does is more like re-mortgaging rather than using one credit card to pay off another, because that implies that it doesn't actually bring in any money, it's just playing a game shuffling it around from place to place while all the while it gets deeper and deeper into debt.

Not true.

Now that I'm back home I can post pictures again, so hopefully with the aid of shiny pictures I can make my point clearer. This is what the public net debt looks like for the UK over time - I'm showing this as a percentage of GDP as that is far more relevant than as sums of money (you can spend as much as you like, as long as you earn more, but if you earn nothing then even spending a little will fuck you up):

ukgs_line.php


So over the past century and a bit it's actually been a lot worse for a fair bit of the time. We're around 60% of GDP now, which isn't great - but to put this into context think about the mortgage analogy - people are getting 3x mortgages, which is the equivalent of 300% of GDP - at the height of things, people were getting 5x mortgages - 500% of what they were earning. As a household how much more do you owe than you earn in a year? Twice as much, three times as much, more?

Scary, no?

Well actually, no - because as long as you've got employment prospects and can keep the money coming in, you'll be okay. Same for the country - borrowing is fine, as long as there's money coming in.

So what about the interest? Some people get interest only mortgages and they spend everything just paying off that and not even touching the capital. Well, as a country the interest is currently about a shade under 3% of GDP, no biggie. Again, in the context of the past century and a bit, it looks like this:

ukgs_line.php


So in actual fact, apart from the time when "Labour went crazy with the credit card" - you have to go all the way back to before WW1 to find a time when we were paying less interest.

This whole rhetoric that borrowing is out of control and dangerous is a complete fallacy, as is the idea that things keep getting worse and worse. Sure, the amounts of money keep getttng bigger, but that's just the way of things - Mars bars used to cost under 20p when I was a nipper, cans of Coke were 14p, an Escort only cost a few grand, a house was 30K. Times change, money goes up.

The only truly important measure is against GDP - against what is being earned. In that context, the problems are being hugely exaggerated to promote an agenda that really will send us into a spiral of doom - because these savage cuts and austerity measures will damage growth - and that is the most important thing.

We can spend as much as we like, as long as it's affordable relative to what we're earning. The austerity measures are causing significant damage to how much we're earning.

Once again the forecast for growth has been revised, down from 1.8 to 1.4 now.

I've been banging on about this for ages now, and so far of all the people talking shit about the economy (on this site at least) I'm the only one who has A) backed up his argument with solid evidence, and B) been proven right time and time again.

Seriously, I can do this shit all fucking day
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46360.msg1377393#msg1377393 date=1312984937]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1377392#msg1377392 date=1312984575]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=46360.msg1377387#msg1377387 date=1312984001]
[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=46360.msg1377379#msg1377379 date=1312983287]
At the heart of government spending in every western society is entitlement programs.

And they are bankrupting all of us.
[/quote]

SPOT ON. Unfortunately the numbers who have to pay for those entitlement are dwinding, and are being squeezed more and more, and will continue to be squeezed until we have nothing left to give.
[/quote]

It's not spot on, it's fucking bullshit that only a fuckwit would come up with. If they were the problem then being as most of these programs were introduced *decades* ago, the entire world would have been fucked long ago.

In case you hadn't noticed, what bankrupted us was bankers gambling on something they didn't really understand, losing, and then expected us to bail them out.

So who are the ones swanning around acting like "the world owes them a living"?
[/quote]

Not really. When govt spending was around 35% GDP we didn't have to borrow much. At 45% GDP we have to borrow fuckloads. So borrowing was manageable in 2000 but now it's off it's tits. Mental in fact. The banks shouldn't have been bailed out, and the public sector shouldn't have been expanded. It's not one or the other, it's both.
[/quote]

Borrowing in 2000: £345 billion = 35% of GDP
Borrowing in 2010: ££760 billion (est £909 billion 2011) = 52% of GDP (est 60% 2011)

Bad, but not unmanageable
 
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