Arsenal have made a bid for Mudryk but Shaktar want 85m…
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...mykhaylo-mudryk-but-shakhtar-donetsk-want-85m
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...mykhaylo-mudryk-but-shakhtar-donetsk-want-85m
Top 4 Rivals : Transfers and Discussion
- Thread starter Frogfish
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They spend how much they usually do....which is a lot. So yes.
I never understood his original move to Atlético and at that fee, too. He’s just not the Simeone-type of player.
At the time he was supposed to be a next gen for Greizmann but difference despite Antoine being a complete knob, he works really hard off the ball and performs all the required pressing.
300k is big salary for a once every 2 months performance.
No, I really don't. I reserve the right to be a cunt at all times.
Imagine if we got our recruitments/forward planning right...
You don’t need to mention the word forward. The whole squad overhaul has been atrocious.
Yep. A solid new midfielder and things would look quite different. I genuinely don't look at a single player in our midfield and think well, that's that position sorted for some time.
Thiago isn't one for the future, but he's great when we have possession, and misses the point in this team the rest of the time. Everyone else has question marks for me this season, or is just undeniably someone we should be improving on as a starter. Some are unrepentant shit. Many of the players are fine for rounding out a squad, but we have 6 players like that, instead of 3 or 4 and far more quality. So many of them are just not athletic enough because they are too old, too slow, or small.
Thiago isn't one for the future, but he's great when we have possession, and misses the point in this team the rest of the time. Everyone else has question marks for me this season, or is just undeniably someone we should be improving on as a starter. Some are unrepentant shit. Many of the players are fine for rounding out a squad, but we have 6 players like that, instead of 3 or 4 and far more quality. So many of them are just not athletic enough because they are too old, too slow, or small.
One thing I noticed in that Brighton game, is that many of their players cannot tackle that well except for that Party guy. So it gives me hope based on what @momoWASboss is saying. Fuck them, don't care who they have I still prefer our squad for some odd reason. Hopefully they turn out to be bottle jobs.
Whilst I agree with the first sentence that's really in complete contrast to your second paragraph. The whole team would look a lot better for a 'solid new midfielder'. Agree.
Thiago, obviously not one for the future but for the here and now (this season and next at least) which is fine. However you greatly undervalue his defensive contributions so from Fbref here are his stats over the past year (per 90) compared to positional peers in Men's Big 5 Leagues, UCL, UEL over the last 365 days. Based on 2451 minutes played. :
Tackles : 3.12 (92nd percentile)
Interceptions : 1.95 (95th percentile)
Blocks : 1.47 (74th percentile)
Passes Attempted : 81.85 (98th percentile)
Passes Completed : 89.3% (91st percentile)
Progressive Passes : 6.98 per 90 (99th percentile)
Aerials won : 1.25 (70th percentile)
Dribbles completed : 1.14 (77th percentile)
It's interesting to compare him to Rice, because for tackling Thiago is miles ahead, PL only, (3.37 to 2.41) whilst almost identical on blocks and interceptions. Thiago ahead on virtually every other metric of the game.
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You also made this statement :
However if we go on say the first 16 (11+5 subs) then those not fitting your statement are : Alisson, VvD (not old at all for a CB), Robbo (29 isn't old, nor slow), Trent, Konate, Diaz, Jota, Nunez, Gakpo, Tsimikas, Gomez and Salah, surely the fittest forward in the league and good for 2-3 more seasons! I'm not even sure that Matip or Fabs can be included, Fabs has never been particular fast or mobile, ditto Keita and Thiago, all relying on technical abilities over pace.
Probably only Firmino, Milner & Hendo meet your criteria and Bobby has been replaced, Bellingham or another to replace Hendo (Bajcetic for Milner). And we have a whole raft of talented youngsters to bring through before some of the current squad 'age-out'.
2 midfielders (January and Summer) would actually complete the required overhaul for next season.
I can't believe you still haven't figured out how bad Thiago is defensively and are relying on stats that prove nothing wrt defending. Its like when a GK has a lot of saves but part of it is because he is never in position to cut out a through ball. That is literally why Thiago can have so many more tackles and still be shit at defending... cause he isn't in the right position... he is always having to make the tackles because he doesn't stem the damage pre-emptively at all. Thiago has always been a liability against athletic players... and the midfields in the PL are full of them. Its no coincidence that we have had a much worse record against good teams with Thiago then we had with Gini... Do you really think Gareth Barry and Lucas Leiva are the best defensive players in the history of the PL because they have the most tackles? Go to the link below and see who the top players are for tackles per 90... are they great defensively or part of bad teams/bad at positioning/being attacked instead... You can go year by year and you'll find our players higher on the list the worse we were...
https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/16390/players/won_tackle
I think you’re missing the point. Thiago isnt the problem. The problem is the lack of investment in and our ability to upgrade the midfield. Its not soley on one player but our lack of options to set up a winning midfield set up that works.
When we paired Fabinho and Thiago together we had about a 88% win ratio. That is much more important than the tackle stat.
When either of them were missing our form drops off and highlights our issue with an unbalanced squad and lack of upgrades on the on the players that arent good enough, can step in a role for the two mentioned or fit in our set up.
When we paired Fabinho and Thiago together we had about a 88% win ratio. That is much more important than the tackle stat.
When either of them were missing our form drops off and highlights our issue with an unbalanced squad and lack of upgrades on the on the players that arent good enough, can step in a role for the two mentioned or fit in our set up.
Don't like those stats? OK here's another - go and check our win percentage when Thiago plays 😉
Oops Hansern beat me to it.
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@Hansern - he said that Thiago is a good defender and then used stats that don't prove it. Thiago is not a good defender.
@Frogfish - not really a fair stat either as the whole team defers to and plays through Thiago since he is a great metronome. Meaning when he is absent his presence is felt way more than if he just wasn't part of the squad.
Thiago is a great footballer, no doubt. However, he is a luxury we can't really afford in so many ways... to name some...
- he and Trent should rarely be on the same pitch in a back 6 against a good team unless we're changing Klopp's style.
- he costs a bomb in wages and is too brittle in general but even more so for our league. Which leads to the metronome problem mentioned before.
- he changes our midfield from hard workers to a finesse group effectively as his lack of mobility has to be covered for.
- He has great vision... which naturally leads to giving the ball away more... and it hasn't given the same base to play on that our recycle midfield beforehand did.
- no end product at all... not something that is the end all and be all, but its become a problem as again he doesn't provide the same base for others to play on.
Now I'll drill down into something I have just felt and never heard anyone else mention... with him and the style change we became easier to beat... worse against the best teams and more flat track bullies than the toughest team in Europe to go up against like we were before.
The big 6 table show that correlation. And based on memory the same holds true in the CL... This could all be correlation and not causation... but its something I've noticed and felt as its gone on and the information seems to hold up.
https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/the-pl-big-six-head-to-head-table-in-2022-23/
https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...o-head-table-in-2021-22-arsenal-spurs-bottom/
https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...-head-to-head-table-in-2020-21-liverpool-top/
And if you drill down into his appearances this season you literally see that we didn't do as well in the big games with him, but did without him as we finished top of the big 6 league: https://www.lfchistory.net/Players/Player/GamesPerSeason/1374-130 both our losses and 1/2 draws against the top 6 teams coming with him starting.
https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...-head-to-head-table-in-2019-20-liverpool-top/
https://blogofthenet.wordpress.com/2019/04/18/premier-league-big-six-table-2019/
I'll continue to hope he proves me wrong but based on age and profile, he'll be gone in the summer of this year or next most likely and he's running out of time.
At this rate, Tottenham are going to fall out of the top 4 picture.
Man Utd's opportunity to break into the top 4 and stay there. Let's see how many pts Arsenal drop.
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I was only talking about our midfield.
I appreciate the effort you went to in your reply.
However it's difficult to understand how certain players' stats are lauded and then when Thiago's are put up they are then dismissed as being 'not representative' and that the win percentage is also unfair because 'the ball is played through him a lot'. That is some real contortionist manipulation to arrive at your position on him. It is simple, all defenders have weaknesses and for most it is against pace, however you can't post those top defensive stats by being a poor defender. No matter how much you'd like to dismiss them as an unrepresentative anomaly.
As for with Thiago in the team and LFC becoming 'easier to beat'? I mean like seriously ? We were a whisker away from 4 trophies last season, something never ever achieved by any club in history - yet we were 'easier to beat'?
If we are discussing this season then there are clearly overarching principles behind us starting slowly, which goes back to last season and the obvious and expected mental and physical drop-off. This had nothing to do with Thiago, all over the pitch we were slower and less energetic. Compare pre-WC to post-WC and the energy boost is obvious to see. That is to say nothing of other issues this season such as the raft of injuries and integrating a new striker and youngsters due to said injuries.
For your list of 'reasons' as to why the team dynamic has been 'negatively affected' (which I don't accept but that's just an opinion), I'm afraid these seem to be more concocted than a realistic assessment, the first two are perfect examples of that being virtually zero logic to the statements. Then there is :
"He changes our midfield from hard workers to a finesse group" : The main reason he was brought in was a lack of creativity from a solid but bland midfield (Fabs, Hendo, Gini) but the base of Fabs and Hendo is still there, so hardly a massive change. I'd surmise that it is more the drop off in Fabs & Hendo's performances, than the fact Thiago is there, that has seen our midfield efforts drop off a cliff. Look at when Thiago isn't available and we then have to use Elliott, CJ, Carvalho or Ox.
"He has great vision... which naturally leads to giving the ball away more" : you mean despite him having some of the PLs best passing stats and amongst the highest pass completion?
"no end product at all" : define end product. If you mean goals then he obviously wasn't brought in to score goals. If however you define it as (when he is in possession) control, possession, an ability to spread play from side to side with ease, press-resistance ... then there's been plenty of 'end product'.
The issue most definitely hasn't been Thiago, as his win percentage and stats (both defensive and in possession) clearly indicate. It's been the drop off in other players (Hendo and Fabs and a lack of end product from other midfielders this season inc. Elliott, Ox. Carvalho, CJ. Trent doesn't have a single assist to his name this season etc.) that's come about as a result of playing the longest season ever, the most games in a season ever, mental pressure to the very last match and going to an unprecedented 4 finals (I'm including the last day in the PL season) .
@Frogfish - whatever, we'll never agree on this.
But, imo, you're supposed to use your eyes to tell if a defender is good, defensive stats are almost always garbage in most sports. I didn't use stats to make my argument about defenders except to prove those stats do not correlate to the players you know with your eyes are the best defenders... they let you know who is put under the most pressure.
Weird that you compare Thiago tto our shitty or young backups who are different types of players... I prefer to compare to the players we could have got for nearly 200k/week in wages.
And yes we are easier to beat against the top teams... As our form against the big 6 shows as provided for 6 years... We got to the CL final last year by beating Benfica and Villareal, doesn't really prove a point against what I am saying...
We made the same mistake with Henderson and Milner and possibly Fabinho too - but it may be he just has a much harder job to do now given Hendo, Thiago and Elliot are all not suited to the style we used to be the best team in the world ... thinking we could use players in their physical decline in a Klopp midfield was a massive guffaw.
great vision, leading to more errors = there doesn't appear to be the stat tracking I need for this... but its based on the eye test again... he is great in the tiki taka type of passing situation... but he'll go for the outrageous more than most and those are obviously and acceptably to some extent less accurate... but it appears to have made us more vulnerable overall in style then the way we used to play... I think Trent has become too aggressive with time too. These two are too weak defensively and physically to be in a back 6 together... I'll stick by that.
end product = goals/assists/penetration... he does what we had the whole team doing as a unit beforehand as far as long balls... now it goes through him a lot more and we are more predictable for it... This is a much more useful when its not expected but I think we see other teams back off Thiago and guard the penetrative passes much more than we used to when it was less predictable when those attempts were coming. This isn't a huge issue obviously but it is a small part to play. Gini wasn't so great at it either, especially against weaker teams... but in the biggest of games he generally had end product.
The being used to a players style effecting the team's performance is not a new phenomenon... it was similar with Xabi. Certain players become engrained in the style and those players need to be on the pitch a majority of the time. This should kind of explain how good of a footballer I think Thiago is... he just isn't so suited to Klopp or even the PL (outside of City probably).
but whatever I shouldn't have spent time on this... Take care and have a good year - the world is better with differing opinions.
Again I hope I am wrong, but we won't win a CL/PL until our midfield is more suited to Klopp's pressing, high line system.
But, imo, you're supposed to use your eyes to tell if a defender is good, defensive stats are almost always garbage in most sports. I didn't use stats to make my argument about defenders except to prove those stats do not correlate to the players you know with your eyes are the best defenders... they let you know who is put under the most pressure.
Weird that you compare Thiago tto our shitty or young backups who are different types of players... I prefer to compare to the players we could have got for nearly 200k/week in wages.
And yes we are easier to beat against the top teams... As our form against the big 6 shows as provided for 6 years... We got to the CL final last year by beating Benfica and Villareal, doesn't really prove a point against what I am saying...
We made the same mistake with Henderson and Milner and possibly Fabinho too - but it may be he just has a much harder job to do now given Hendo, Thiago and Elliot are all not suited to the style we used to be the best team in the world ... thinking we could use players in their physical decline in a Klopp midfield was a massive guffaw.
great vision, leading to more errors = there doesn't appear to be the stat tracking I need for this... but its based on the eye test again... he is great in the tiki taka type of passing situation... but he'll go for the outrageous more than most and those are obviously and acceptably to some extent less accurate... but it appears to have made us more vulnerable overall in style then the way we used to play... I think Trent has become too aggressive with time too. These two are too weak defensively and physically to be in a back 6 together... I'll stick by that.
end product = goals/assists/penetration... he does what we had the whole team doing as a unit beforehand as far as long balls... now it goes through him a lot more and we are more predictable for it... This is a much more useful when its not expected but I think we see other teams back off Thiago and guard the penetrative passes much more than we used to when it was less predictable when those attempts were coming. This isn't a huge issue obviously but it is a small part to play. Gini wasn't so great at it either, especially against weaker teams... but in the biggest of games he generally had end product.
The being used to a players style effecting the team's performance is not a new phenomenon... it was similar with Xabi. Certain players become engrained in the style and those players need to be on the pitch a majority of the time. This should kind of explain how good of a footballer I think Thiago is... he just isn't so suited to Klopp or even the PL (outside of City probably).
but whatever I shouldn't have spent time on this... Take care and have a good year - the world is better with differing opinions.
Again I hope I am wrong, but we won't win a CL/PL until our midfield is more suited to Klopp's pressing, high line system.
As you said we are not going to agree as we are not seeing the same but then that's the nature of a sport with so many components. But I appreciate someone who takes to the time to evolve and explain their thought process without resorting to abuse or denigration.
Have a wonderful 2023 !
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