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Tonights Games

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[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42322.msg1202222#msg1202222 date=1287606037]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42322.msg1202213#msg1202213 date=1287605716]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42322.msg1202205#msg1202205 date=1287605534]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42322.msg1202194#msg1202194 date=1287605097]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42322.msg1202191#msg1202191 date=1287604760]
I really believe Benitez (despite his cold-shoulder management) is top manager when:

1) He's not actually signing the players.
2) It's early on in his tenure and the squad players (especially) haven't yet been frozen out.

I fully expect him to do well for the first year or two, but when he has to start replacing the likes of Eto, Zanetti, Lucio and Samuel, if Moratti gives him free reign in the transfer market, he'll slowly and surely dismantle the side, especially the creativity within it. He seems lucky to have inherited some talented young wingers at Inter (something he couldn't buy for love nor money with us).
[/quote]

I think rafa is a good manager but needs a board that will act quickly when he identifies a player he wants. rafa's first choices tend to be excellent.
[/quote]

That's tosh. Like who.. Alves? (who we only know about because he went onto become a great success as a RB! when Rafa wanted him as a RW. I doubt we'd have heard this if he had flopped) Who else?

At the end of the day, Rafa bought what he bought. Those were his choices.

And they were often shite. (6-7 Krompkamps for every Alonso)
[/quote]

alves
simeo
malouda
vidic


[/quote]

.. and who was his 1st choice signing before he settled on Aquilani or Dossena or Babel or Lucas?

You just named 4 players above who turned out to be good under other managers in other systems, that Rafa later he was after. I'm sure he was after Messi at some point too.
[/quote]

malouda was rafa's first choice, he went after babel when he didn't get him.
to be fair, fucks why he went after aqua and keane.
 
I really believe Benitez (despite his cold-shoulder management) is top manager when:

1) He's not actually signing the players.
2) It's early on in his tenure and the squad players (especially) haven't yet been frozen out.

I fully expect him to do well for the first year or two, but when he has to start replacing the likes of Eto, Zanetti, Lucio and Samuel, if Moratti gives him free reign in the transfer market, he'll slowly and surely dismantle the side, especially the creativity within it.
Click to expand...

Come off it - when we spent decent money he bought Reina, Mascherano, Torres, Alonso he couldn't buy more than one a season at those prices and he wasn't with us 10 or 20 seasons like Ferguson. All managers have bought some shit.
 
Theres no point talking about who a manager would LIKE to sign. Houllier wanted to sign Christiano Ronaldo, Zidane and Essien. In reality he signed Cheyrou, Kewell and fucking Biscan.
 
I'd be a boss manager me. I want pele, cruyff, zico, cafu, beckenbauer and zoff

obv with the time machine the board gives me. After all, they're all my first choices
 
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202236#msg1202236 date=1287606594]
I really believe Benitez (despite his cold-shoulder management) is top manager when:

1) He's not actually signing the players.
2) It's early on in his tenure and the squad players (especially) haven't yet been frozen out.

I fully expect him to do well for the first year or two, but when he has to start replacing the likes of Eto, Zanetti, Lucio and Samuel, if Moratti gives him free reign in the transfer market, he'll slowly and surely dismantle the side, especially the creativity within it.
Click to expand...

Come off it - when we spent decent money he bought Reina, Mascherano, Torres, Alonso he couldn't buy more than one a season at those prices and he wasn't with us 10 or 20 seasons like Ferguson. All managers have bought some shit.
[/quote]

Was decent money was spent on Pennant 7m? Dossena 8m? Babel 11.5m? Aquilani 17m? Johnson 18m? Keane 21m?

Really?

YOU come off it - his transfer record was poor.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42322.msg1201458#msg1201458 date=1287562914]
Massive Zlatan is wrong about everything all the time.

Nobody brings as much wrong to the 6CM table as massive zlatan
[/quote]

I resent that!

Don't make me post double hermaphrodite porn to prove it!
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=42322.msg1202265#msg1202265 date=1287607376]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42322.msg1201458#msg1201458 date=1287562914]
Massive Zlatan is wrong about everything all the time.

Nobody brings as much wrong to the 6CM table as massive zlatan
[/quote]

I resent that!

Don't make me post double hermaphrodite porn to prove it!
[/quote]

don't worry single, you dont' need a reason to post double hermaphrodite porn
 
Pennant 7m? Dossena 8m? Babel 11.5m? Aquilani 17m? Johnson 18m? Keane 21m?
Click to expand...

Alex Ferguson has spent easily those amounts (and more TBH) on the same number of players that haven't worked out - is his transfer record poor?

I'm NOT saying Benitez hasn't made poor buys, I'm saying all managers make them - but he's also made several good ones.
I was enthusiastic about all of those player bar Pennant (shithouse) and Dossena (knew nothing about him) PRIOR to purchase.
Hindsight has proved me wrong.
 
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202274#msg1202274 date=1287607711]
Pennant 7m? Dossena 8m? Babel 11.5m? Aquilani 17m? Johnson 18m? Keane 21m?
Click to expand...

Alex Ferguson has spent easily those amounts (and more TBH) on the same number of players that haven't worked out - is his transfer record poor?

I'm NOT saying Benitez hasn't made poor buys, I'm saying all managers make them - but he's also made several good ones.
I was enthusiastic about all of those player bar Pennant (shithouse) and Dossena (knew nothing about him) PRIOR to purchase.
Hindsight has proved me wrong.
[/quote]

Fergie may have made poor signings but generally speaking 40% of his have been somewhat of a success, in some cases dragging them to the league title. Rafa signed somewhere in the region of 80 players. Could you name more than 15 players who are successes that rafa signed?
 
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202274#msg1202274 date=1287607711]
Pennant 7m? Dossena 8m? Babel 11.5m? Aquilani 17m? Johnson 18m? Keane 21m?
Click to expand...

Alex Ferguson has spent easily those amounts (and more TBH) on the same number of players that haven't worked out - is his transfer record poor?

I'm NOT saying Benitez hasn't made poor buys, I'm saying all managers make them - but he's also made several good ones.
I was enthusiastic about all of those player bar Pennant (shithouse) and Dossena (knew nothing about him) PRIOR to purchase.
Hindsight has proved me wrong.
[/quote]

Can we NOT bring Ferguson into it (why not compare Rafa to Wenger?). Fergie has won enough to earn the right to buy what he wants. Are you one of those who held up Berbatov as an example of a flop last year? Or Nani? Fergie's dealings are neither here nor there. Great managers make poor signings and shite managers make good signings. The comparison gives us little insight.

Lets just look at Rafa's transfer record in it owns right, without comparison to anyone else but himself.

For every Alonso, there was a Pennant.. and a Krompkamp.. and a Josemi.. and a Leto.. and a Paletta. He wasted millions. And then moaned about the lack of money. Lets just be honest here.

Good manager, but very poor in the transfer market. That's it.
 
Fergie may have made poor signings but generally speaking 50%+ of his have been somewhat of a success, in some cases dragging them to the league title. Rafa signed somewhere in the region of 80 players. Could you name more than 15 players who are successes that rafa signed?
Click to expand...

Xabi Alonso
Luis Garcia
Jose Reina
Peter Crouch
Fábio Aurélio
Dirk Kuyt
Ãlvaro Arbeloa
Javier Mascherano
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Daniel Agger
Martin Skrtel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Boudewijn Zenden
Mohamed Sissoko

I would say that all of these players could reasonably be called successful buys.
I'm not saying they are all great players, world beaters - but considering the price they were purchased for and the role they were expected to play in the team (some were squad players only, some were moved on etc).
My reasoning is that they all played a significant part in the most recent successes for LFC - trophies (CL, FA cup, and the highest points return in recent history etc.
I know, I know it contains LUCAS and he's a c**t.
Sorry it's what I think though.
 
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202302#msg1202302 date=1287608820]
Fergie may have made poor signings but generally speaking 50%+ of his have been somewhat of a success, in some cases dragging them to the league title. Rafa signed somewhere in the region of 80 players. Could you name more than 15 players who are successes that rafa signed?
Click to expand...

Xabi Alonso
Luis Garcia
Jose Reina
Peter Crouch
Fábio Aurélio
Dirk Kuyt
Ãlvaro Arbeloa
Javier Mascherano
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Daniel Agger
Martin Skrtel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Boudewijn Zenden
Mohamed Sissoko

I would say that all of these players could reasonably be called successful buys.
I'm not saying they are all great players, world beaters - but considering the price they were purchased for and the role they were expected to play in the team (some were squad players only, some were moved on etc).
My reasoning is that they all played a significant part in the most recent successes for LFC - trophies (CL, FA cup, and the highest points return in recent history etc.
I know, I know it contains LUCAS and he's a c**t.
Sorry it's what I think though.
[/quote]

*blinks*

bolo.....
 
Can we NOT bring Ferguson into it (why not compare Rafa to Wenger?). Fergie has won enough to earn the right to buy what he wants. Are you one of those who held up Berbatov as an example of a flop last year? Or Nani? Fergie's dealings are neither here nor there. Great managers make poor signings and shite managers make good signings. The comparison gives us little insight.

Lets just look at Rafa's transfer record in it owns right, without comparison to anyone else but himself.

For every Alonso, there was a Pennant.. and a Krompkamp.. and a Josemi.. and a Leto.. and a Paletta. He wasted millions. And then moaned about the lack of money. Lets just be honest here.

Good manager, but very poor in the transfer market. That's it.
Click to expand...

I don't understand your point.
If I compared Rafa to Wenger I could produce a similar list of duds that Wenger bought.
You are using a comparative list of Benitez' successful buys to unsuccessful buys to prove that Benitez is poor in the transfer market.
Then you tell me not to use a similar list comparing Ferguson's successful buys to his unsuccessful ones.

Quote "The comparison gives us little insight."

Then surely by your own argumentation, a list of Benitez buys compared to each other tells us nothing.

All we really have to go on are Benitez achievements CL, FA cup, highest points tally in recent memory
 
I didn't think Bolo was one of our greatest players.
BUT he was a free transfer, a dutch international and scored a penalty in a CL semi-final for us which we won.
I'd call that a reasonably successful buy, although he's not to everyones taste
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=42322.msg1202311#msg1202311 date=1287609653]
Gareth Bale must be a 30m player the way he's going.
[/quote]

easily
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42322.msg1202306#msg1202306 date=1287609338]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202302#msg1202302 date=1287608820]
Fergie may have made poor signings but generally speaking 50%+ of his have been somewhat of a success, in some cases dragging them to the league title. Rafa signed somewhere in the region of 80 players. Could you name more than 15 players who are successes that rafa signed?
Click to expand...

Xabi Alonso
Luis Garcia
Jose Reina
Peter Crouch
Fábio Aurélio
Dirk Kuyt
Ãlvaro Arbeloa
Javier Mascherano
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Daniel Agger
Martin Skrtel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Boudewijn Zenden
Mohamed Sissoko

I would say that all of these players could reasonably be called successful buys.
I'm not saying they are all great players, world beaters - but considering the price they were purchased for and the role they were expected to play in the team (some were squad players only, some were moved on etc).
My reasoning is that they all played a significant part in the most recent successes for LFC - trophies (CL, FA cup, and the highest points return in recent history etc.
I know, I know it contains LUCAS and he's a c**t.
Sorry it's what I think though.
[/quote]

*blinks*

bolo.....
[/quote]

Momo was a success. He was shit in his last season but we made a profit and he had some amazing games (fa cup final and the Barca game spring to mind). I'd take him back right now if it meant we could drop Lucas or Older Danish worse Lucas.

The only thing positive I can think of about Leiva and Zenden is that they both seem like nice people off the field.
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42322.msg1202280#msg1202280 date=1287607898]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202274#msg1202274 date=1287607711]
Pennant 7m? Dossena 8m? Babel 11.5m? Aquilani 17m? Johnson 18m? Keane 21m?
Click to expand...

Alex Ferguson has spent easily those amounts (and more TBH) on the same number of players that haven't worked out - is his transfer record poor?

I'm NOT saying Benitez hasn't made poor buys, I'm saying all managers make them - but he's also made several good ones.
I was enthusiastic about all of those player bar Pennant (shithouse) and Dossena (knew nothing about him) PRIOR to purchase.
Hindsight has proved me wrong.
[/quote]

Fergie may have made poor signings but generally speaking 40% of his have been somewhat of a success, in some cases dragging them to the league title. Rafa signed somewhere in the region of 80 players. Could you name more than 15 players who are successes that rafa signed?
[/quote]


but how many of them are terrible failures either?

scott carson
diego cavalieri
josemi
jan kromkamp
mark gonzalez
emiliano insua
craig bellamy
mikel san jose
sebastain leto
maxi rodriguez
soto kyrgiakos
andriy voronin
phillip degen

are any of the above really serious mistakes? all bought for small amounts, mostly sold on for decent profits or at break-even, most as a result of trying to build a weak and ageing squad inherited from houllier on a limited budget.

i don't think there were any more serious flops than there were serious successes: morientes, pennant, babel, keane, dossena, riera, aquilani, versus torres, reina, agger, alonso, garcia, mascherano, kuyt, arbeloa.
 
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202310#msg1202310 date=1287609531]
Can we NOT bring Ferguson into it (why not compare Rafa to Wenger?). Fergie has won enough to earn the right to buy what he wants. Are you one of those who held up Berbatov as an example of a flop last year? Or Nani? Fergie's dealings are neither here nor there. Great managers make poor signings and shite managers make good signings. The comparison gives us little insight.

Lets just look at Rafa's transfer record in it owns right, without comparison to anyone else but himself.

For every Alonso, there was a Pennant.. and a Krompkamp.. and a Josemi.. and a Leto.. and a Paletta. He wasted millions. And then moaned about the lack of money. Lets just be honest here.

Good manager, but very poor in the transfer market. That's it.
Click to expand...

I don't understand your point.
If I compared Rafa to Wenger I could produce a similar list of duds that Wenger bought.
You are using a comparative list of Benitez' successful buys to unsuccessful buys to prove that Benitez is poor in the transfer market.
Then you tell me not to use a similar list comparing Ferguson's successful buys to his unsuccessful ones.

Quote "The comparison gives us little insight."

Then surely by your own argumentation, a list of Benitez buys compared to each other tells us nothing.

All we really have to go on are Benitez achievements CL, FA cup, highest points tally in recent memory




[/quote]

You simply didn't get my last post mate. In very, very simple terms, Benitez has a very poor record in the transfer market. That's a fact. The amount of poor players he bought prove this. Whether you want to say Fergie equally has a poor record in the transfer market is neither here nor there.. not my concern. The fact remains Benitez's record WAS poor and that's all I care about.
 
oh, and i've just checked his signings, and the 80 player thing is rubbish, really. he signed around 40-45 proper first team players for substantial (£200k+) fees or on free transfers dpending on how minor a player you want to include. it seems daft to include all the kids brought in for peanuts, especially as the profit we'll realise on someone like danny ayala (paid £160k, now worth at least £2m) would pay for them all. indeed, the profit on san jose probably already has.

so of the 45, i'd guess about 15 good or very good, 20 ok or so insignificant as not to matter, and 10 poor or very poor.

i think he gets stick just for the volume, without getting credit for the fact that he inherited a small squad fairly low on quality, and had to spread only 'decent' funds pretty thinly.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42322.msg1202191#msg1202191 date=1287604760]
I really believe Benitez (despite his cold-shoulder management) is top manager when:

1) He's not actually signing the players.
2) It's early on in his tenure and the squad players (especially) haven't yet been frozen out.

I fully expect him to do well for the first year or two, but when he has to start replacing the likes of Eto, Zanetti, Lucio and Samuel, if Moratti gives him free reign in the transfer market, he'll slowly and surely dismantle the side, especially the creativity within it. He seems lucky to have inherited some talented young wingers at Inter (something he couldn't buy for love nor money with us).
[/quote]

Agree fully. Even Balague mentioned similar during the summer, Rafa's methods require a certain level of commitment to that players just get fed up with after a year or two.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=42322.msg1202323#msg1202323 date=1287610146]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42322.msg1202310#msg1202310 date=1287609531]
Can we NOT bring Ferguson into it (why not compare Rafa to Wenger?). Fergie has won enough to earn the right to buy what he wants. Are you one of those who held up Berbatov as an example of a flop last year? Or Nani? Fergie's dealings are neither here nor there. Great managers make poor signings and shite managers make good signings. The comparison gives us little insight.

Lets just look at Rafa's transfer record in it owns right, without comparison to anyone else but himself.

For every Alonso, there was a Pennant.. and a Krompkamp.. and a Josemi.. and a Leto.. and a Paletta. He wasted millions. And then moaned about the lack of money. Lets just be honest here.

Good manager, but very poor in the transfer market. That's it.
Click to expand...

I don't understand your point.
If I compared Rafa to Wenger I could produce a similar list of duds that Wenger bought.
You are using a comparative list of Benitez' successful buys to unsuccessful buys to prove that Benitez is poor in the transfer market.
Then you tell me not to use a similar list comparing Ferguson's successful buys to his unsuccessful ones.

Quote "The comparison gives us little insight."

Then surely by your own argumentation, a list of Benitez buys compared to each other tells us nothing.

All we really have to go on are Benitez achievements CL, FA cup, highest points tally in recent memory




[/quote]

You simply didn't get my last post mate. In very, very simple terms, Benitez has a very poor record in the transfer market. That's a fact. The amount of poor players he bought prove this. Whether you want to say Fergie equally has a poor record in the transfer market is neither here nor there.. not my concern. The fact remains Benitez's record WAS poor and that's all I care about.
[/quote]


absolute bollocks. i mean, as far as i'm concerned it's a completely bollocks *opinion*, but at least admit it is an opinion and not even in the remotest vicinity of a fact.
 
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