Souness bought Paul Stewart and Istvan Kozma to play in our midfield
The Third Wheel
- Thread starter MomoWASright
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Bless you.
Hes been coming on a lot to reinforce their midfield everytime I've watched lately.
I can't see em moving on from him ...
Last meeting Edwards had with the board ended with, John Henry showing how deep hs pockets are,
Even wjhen we won the league we rode out a few games through the skin of our teeth and luck. what gets me is that I feel this team is sooo close to having that almost unstoppable amount of dynamism that we need in those types of games....
Yesterday against city you can see how different our midfield options ore. City with Grealish on the bench, but when we want to turn to creativity we can only call on the lie of OX, Minamino or the young ones like Elliot and Jones (don't get me started with Keita). If we had a Foden, KDB or Bernado Silva in our midfield we would have some real dynamism to turn things around when teams sometimes suss us out.
The problem is Im, not 100% sure Klopp believes in this type of player, ever since we sold Coutinho Klopp has moved away from this model. Knowing Klopp he'll turn Elliott and Carvallo into DMs lol
Yesterday against city you can see how different our midfield options ore. City with Grealish on the bench, but when we want to turn to creativity we can only call on the lie of OX, Minamino or the young ones like Elliot and Jones (don't get me started with Keita). If we had a Foden, KDB or Bernado Silva in our midfield we would have some real dynamism to turn things around when teams sometimes suss us out.
The problem is Im, not 100% sure Klopp believes in this type of player, ever since we sold Coutinho Klopp has moved away from this model. Knowing Klopp he'll turn Elliott and Carvallo into DMs lol
You have a player breaking records for assists in a specific position that affords him space , time and the ability to attack from both wide and deep areas and you’d like to move him to an area where he won’t have that time and space and replace him with someone likely to be less effective.
Its’s working amazingly well as it is, why on earth would you want to change it?
Midfield requires a different skill set - why don’t we just concentrate on finding a player with those skills than trying to shoe-horn in a player who doesn’t.
He was a midfielder coming through the youth teams. It's never been this ludicrous idea some people seem to believe.
He has the skills of a great creative midfielder. Good engine, athletic if not that pacey, wonderful passer, great shot, intelligent.
You may lose some of the assists - although I wouldn't say that's absolutely guaranteed, given he'd be closer to goal - but you'd almost certainly gain at least 5 and probably more like 10 goals a season from him. You'd also gain a brilliant player operating right in the middle of the park, probably the most important area of the pitch.
I'm not even saying it would definitely be the best solution, just that people who immediately dismiss it are being stupid.
For me a lot would just depend on if there are any really good right backs out there we could bring in.
Equally, because he spent time playing in midfield as a youth, against other youth players l, youth development teams, some 5+ years ago doesn’t mean if you stick him in midfield now, that the skills he’s honed as a right back will translate all that easily.
I think the “he played there as a youth” is a particularly week argument because it’s almost a given that players will have played various different positions in their youth.
I also think it’s fanciful, given that our central midfielders perform very different roles Hyde one Trent plays out wide, to assume that he’ll start banging in goals and translate the results across to that position.
There’s a reason why our midfielders don’t generally achieve high scoring stats from open play - it’s because their primary responsibilities are pressing & tracking the opposition, sometimes running from deep and ball retention.
It’s not a slight on our current midfielders ability, it’s more a consequence of how we set up.
You put Trent in there and you change the dynamic and the balance not only of how that midfield functions, but of the high performance of our top attacking position.
I don’t think it delivers the results you think it does and I don’t think we easily replicate what Trent delivers from RB with someone, almost anyone else.
Could be, not sure. Seems to me our RCM role is basically a pretty standard midfield role, not a particularly water-carrying one. I don't think Thiago would really thrive in the left-hand one if that weren't the case. I suspect the main reason our midfielders never score goals is that we've never had goal scorers playing there. The one time we did, with Oxlade-chamberlain a few years ago, he did actually score quite a bit.
Trent was never a specialist right back. He's just an extremely talented technician who can do a great job in a number of positions. He's another Beckham. It may be his best position is right back, but it also may not be. That just seems obvious to me, and I don't know why that very small leap of imagination should be dismissed so glibly.
Its a good point. Also, don't forget that Stevie G started out as a right back before moving into midfield, so we have previous for this sort of transformation.
There are a few problems with Hendo for me
1) how he plays the role - he plays too high up the pitch, ignoring the previous system of klopp which had the CMs covering for the full backs
2) technical skill - when he gets the ball higher up the pitch his decision making and ability to execute in tighter spaces under pressure is notable. He’s best on instinct and lots of his first time passes/crosses are decent but time to think and he more often than not either wastes possession himself or just recycles it on to another player, slowing us down
3) he only plays his high intensity version of this role in big games where he struggles against great players. He plays within himself in lesser games which then also reduces his influence. I actually think he’d look v good if he played his high intensity version of this role against lesser opposition.
i have dreaded him starting for a while now, the balance rarely works with him as the attacking CM.
1) how he plays the role - he plays too high up the pitch, ignoring the previous system of klopp which had the CMs covering for the full backs
2) technical skill - when he gets the ball higher up the pitch his decision making and ability to execute in tighter spaces under pressure is notable. He’s best on instinct and lots of his first time passes/crosses are decent but time to think and he more often than not either wastes possession himself or just recycles it on to another player, slowing us down
3) he only plays his high intensity version of this role in big games where he struggles against great players. He plays within himself in lesser games which then also reduces his influence. I actually think he’d look v good if he played his high intensity version of this role against lesser opposition.
i have dreaded him starting for a while now, the balance rarely works with him as the attacking CM.
Agree with all of that. Winds me up seeing him the one pressing the keeper every time. That's the CF's role.
There were times against City that Mo was tracking Cancelo with Hendo standing forward on the last defender waiting for a counter attack. Criminal that wasn’t the other way around!
That's my main thought too tbh.
I've got no issue at all with Trent at RB because he's brilliant there. If we could get a Bellingham, or Rice, or Gallagher etc then that's great. But it'd almost certainly be at least 50% cheaper to buy a quality RB, if there's a suitable option available, that is.
It's an unncessary gamble given where this team is at right now.
Relocating one of the most pivotal parts of our team, bringing in an expensive replacement and then hoping it all kinda comes together to save about 40M... come on.
If we were a team in transition and willing to sacrifice the short term for the sake of a longer term plan then maybe but we're not.
If we can't afford a "name" 100M midfield talent then we will just have to work that bit harder - as always - and hope we strike lucky.
Relocating one of the most pivotal parts of our team, bringing in an expensive replacement and then hoping it all kinda comes together to save about 40M... come on.
If we were a team in transition and willing to sacrifice the short term for the sake of a longer term plan then maybe but we're not.
If we can't afford a "name" 100M midfield talent then we will just have to work that bit harder - as always - and hope we strike lucky.
Yes but that kind of prudential assessment effectively rests on the idea that Trent being brilliant in midfield is a significant gamble.
Obviously that's a judgement call. But I don't believe it is a big gamble. If you look at his attributes IMO they're more typical of a brilliant creative midfielder than a great right back.
Not to mention, you're still just substituting one gamble for another, namely being able to get a £100m midfielder for £50m. Although of course we do have a good track record in that general area.
Obviously that's a judgement call. But I don't believe it is a big gamble. If you look at his attributes IMO they're more typical of a brilliant creative midfielder than a great right back.
Not to mention, you're still just substituting one gamble for another, namely being able to get a £100m midfielder for £50m. Although of course we do have a good track record in that general area.
Not really. It's one gamble versus multiple.
Instead of localizing the gamble to one position or area, central midfield, you'll be changing the dynamic of the team and messing about in midfield and RB.
As for whether Trent will be brilliant or not in midfield, who knows... and I doubt we'll get to find out given that Klopp has only ever let him play there on one occasion as far as I can remember.
The problem with this is - Trent gets more possession and more time to pick out passes in his current position - he just won’t get that time and space in the centre, so the likelihood is that his influence would be diminished.
Didn’t Southgate try Trent in Midfield against Andorra, only to switch him back to RB, where he performed better.
Another irony of putting Trent into midfield in our current lineup, is you’d be asking him to hold his forward runs somewhat in order to cover in behind the RB who would be pushing further forward out wide.
The only way it works, is if we want to change the way we set up down the entire right side which again begs the question - Why?
The idea of doing it because a RB might be cheaper doesn’t work for me - like I said, or midfielders aren’t there as the primary playmakers, they’re there to recycle possession and keep the ball moving. Thiago uses the ball very differently to Trent.
The comparison to Gerrard isn’t helpful either, because Gerrard never played regularly as a RB - don’t even think he played there much as a youth - whereas Trent hasn’t played regularly outside of RB.l in anywhere other than youth teams.
Of course Trent is a talent, but I agree with Keni, it’s a move that doesn’t make sense - I can’t see how it benefits the team at all.
Didn’t Southgate try Trent in Midfield against Andorra, only to switch him back to RB, where he performed better.
Another irony of putting Trent into midfield in our current lineup, is you’d be asking him to hold his forward runs somewhat in order to cover in behind the RB who would be pushing further forward out wide.
The only way it works, is if we want to change the way we set up down the entire right side which again begs the question - Why?
The idea of doing it because a RB might be cheaper doesn’t work for me - like I said, or midfielders aren’t there as the primary playmakers, they’re there to recycle possession and keep the ball moving. Thiago uses the ball very differently to Trent.
The comparison to Gerrard isn’t helpful either, because Gerrard never played regularly as a RB - don’t even think he played there much as a youth - whereas Trent hasn’t played regularly outside of RB.l in anywhere other than youth teams.
Of course Trent is a talent, but I agree with Keni, it’s a move that doesn’t make sense - I can’t see how it benefits the team at all.
Yep I mentioned this after the match. Did my head in because he should have been the one protecting Trent.
You can't see?
How about, he plays brilliantly there, becomes our De Bruyne for the next 10 years, and we manage to sign a very good right back.
I can understand doubting the idea, but not being able to even SEE potential benefits?
It actually only rests on 2 quite likely outcomes: Trent performing as well in midfield as his attributes predict is likely, and us being able to sign a good right back.
I am completely undecided on the Trent in midfield debate and could easily be persuaded either way, however probably only after seeing him play there for a few games.
However as to the Why? Well a number of reasons come to mind :
i) playing a more defensive RB (e.g. Gomez) would enable us to shore up what is currently our greatest weakness
ii) getting Trent on the ball more. I don't think Trent needs 'more time on the ball to make his crosses/passes' he's brilliant under pressure but if we look at say Hendo then he still gets plenty of time so no reason TAA wouldn't. Trent higher up would mean better/more accurate crosses and passes than say Hendo.
iii) he would undoubtedly score more.
We would always have the option of playing TAA at RB but it would also be nice to see him utilised in midfield too. Pre-season would be the perfect time to try it out.
I get your point - but the likely outcome of a new RB is a reduction in quality and attacking outcome from RB - because we have very arguably the best in that role right now.
So for me - keep it to one outcome - invest in a top quality player suited to playing in the Hendo midfield role.
I'd fucking love us to sign that Conor Gallagher. Probably not that likely.
I think the stats would show that Trent sees more of the ball at RB than Hendo would in MF - and he has more space and more time.m to do what he does.
Again, as I said, I think Trent would have to change his game to play in MF and we’d end up having to shift the team around to accommodate that change.
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