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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

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[quote author=Atlas link=topic=47188.msg1448826#msg1448826 date=1324469689]
Are you *really* saying potential issues of race and racism should just be left on the pitch?

Would you really just brush it off had one of our players been racially abused?
[/quote]

If he, on his own initiative, made a complaint I'd back him all the way. What I would *not* do is intervene when he had already said it was no big deal to him and encourage him to take it further.
 
"Suarez is not a racist, but used a racial slur".,..........that statement from the FA is purely to protect themselves from legal proceedings further down the line. I can't believe some people are now adopting the same position? The reason the club are pissed off is because Suarez is not a racist and nor did he use any racial slur. I can see the wider public who've just read the news articles would be pissed at Suarez. But you all have the benefit of having read this thread so what gives?
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448813#msg1448813 date=1324469286]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1448789#msg1448789 date=1324468436]
@ Rosco.

He didn't call him a "Negro" like some kind of deep south cotton picker, but used the adjective negro, (pronounced differently and meaning black) as a noun.

It happens regularly in Spain as I explained earlier. I (and no doubt you) get referred to as Gordo, which is an adjective meaning fat but when used as a noun means "fatso" or "fattie".

I have seen nothing in evidence where the word "negro" (don't forget it means black) has been used in association with another derogatory term, like "puta negra" (black whore/bitch). He seems to be being accused of using Negro as an insult. Where he comes from and where I live it isn't.

They should have at least cut him some slack and warned him.

Evra also needs to be charged & banned now as he has already admitted his part in all of this.
[/quote]

You're wasting your time V mate. As someone else has said this is guilt by insinuation and not by intent. Anyone who thinks this sorry episode makes Suarez a racist is a complete fuckwit.
[/quote]

I know. I hope Suarez's legal team have a field day on the tabloids, esp the Mirror.

What is frustrating is that in Spanish, black = negro/a

Suarez has been hoisted by the short & curlies because the English language has hijacked the word & given it unsavoury overtones.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448824#msg1448824 date=1324469645]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448817#msg1448817 date=1324469509]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448814#msg1448814 date=1324469369]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448801#msg1448801 date=1324468932]
In our country, yes, LTW. The case where it happened and where the court was.
[/quote]

Wow - didn't know that. I wonder how many countries are as strict as England in that sense. I guess props for enforcing the law.
[/quote]

In a country which was at the heart of the Slave trade it's understandable why such language is deemed different here to elsewhere.
[/quote]

Don't see the issue in Spain/Portugal with the word sir - and they were as key ... To repeat, if you think something may be offensive, don't say it ... And perhaps this may be a good lesson to Liverpool to give foreign players a 'Intro to England' course about words to avoid despite them being ok in their cultures (if they don't do that already)

Asim - thanks.
[/quote]

I wouldn't be against a club field trip to the local slavery museum every now and again.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

That's almost word for word what some of the redtops are saying.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448817#msg1448817 date=1324469509]
In a country which was at the heart of the Slave trade it's understandable why such language is deemed different here to elsewhere.
[/quote]

You mean the country that was the first to abolish the slave trade and stamped it out wherever they found it round the world?
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

He admitted using a Spanish word to a French man in England. The word in question is not offensive in Spanish but he gets done for 8 games.

Evra uses a slang derogatory word against Suarez in his own evidence and the FA does nothing.

I don't for one minute think Fergie is behind this but the FA have an agenda against Suarez and have used this to hit him hard.

Watch us appeal and if the ban is reduced it will be something like 4 games, with 4 more suspended. Then they'll hit him with the 1 fingered salute at Fulham and he'll get the full 8 again. Watch it happen.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448813#msg1448813 date=1324469286]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1448789#msg1448789 date=1324468436]
@ Rosco.

He didn't call him a "Negro" like some kind of deep south cotton picker, but used the adjective negro, (pronounced differently and meaning black) as a noun.

It happens regularly in Spain as I explained earlier. I (and no doubt you) get referred to as Gordo, which is an adjective meaning fat but when used as a noun means "fatso" or "fattie".

I have seen nothing in evidence where the word "negro" (don't forget it means black) has been used in association with another derogatory term, like "puta negra" (black whore/bitch). He seems to be being accused of using Negro as an insult. Where he comes from and where I live it isn't.

They should have at least cut him some slack and warned him.

Evra also needs to be charged & banned now as he has already admitted his part in all of this.
[/quote]

You're wasting your time V mate. As someone else has said this is guilt by insinuation and not by intent. Anyone who thinks this sorry episode makes Suarez a racist is a complete fuckwit.
[/quote]

+1
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1448834#msg1448834 date=1324470037]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448817#msg1448817 date=1324469509]
In a country which was at the heart of the Slave trade it's understandable why such language is deemed different here to elsewhere.
[/quote]

You mean the country that was the first to abolish the slave trade and stamped it out wherever they found it round the world?
[/quote]

Which doesn't stop it being sensitive about the fact that it took place at all.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448832#msg1448832 date=1324469945]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448824#msg1448824 date=1324469645]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448817#msg1448817 date=1324469509]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448814#msg1448814 date=1324469369]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448801#msg1448801 date=1324468932]
In our country, yes, LTW. The case where it happened and where the court was.
[/quote]

Wow - didn't know that. I wonder how many countries are as strict as England in that sense. I guess props for enforcing the law.
[/quote]

In a country which was at the heart of the Slave trade it's understandable why such language is deemed different here to elsewhere.
[/quote]

Don't see the issue in Spain/Portugal with the word sir - and they were as key ... To repeat, if you think something may be offensive, don't say it ... And perhaps this may be a good lesson to Liverpool to give foreign players a 'Intro to England' course about words to avoid despite them being ok in their cultures (if they don't do that already)

Asim - thanks.
[/quote]

I wouldn't be against a club field trip to the local slavery museum every now and again.
[/quote]

You see mate, maybe something positive can come out of this !
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

... and you wonder why some people have exploded on this thread ...

Since you aren't one of the mental folk (thankfully as you are 6CM man of the year, and we don't want a mentalist winning that prestigious award):

1) if the term is used by Manure teammates on Evra too, should they be done for it?
2) why wasn't Evra done in for using an offensive term to Suarez?
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1448837#msg1448837 date=1324470126]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

He admitted using a Spanish word to a French man in England. The word in question is not offensive in Spanish but he gets done for 8 games.

Evra uses a slang derogatory word against Suarez in his own evidence and the FA does nothing.

I don't for one minute think Fergie is behind this but the FA have an agenda against Suarez and have used this to hit him hard.

Watch us appeal and if the ban is reduced it will be something like 4 games, with 4 more suspended. Then they'll hit him with the 1 fingered salute at Fulham and he'll get the full 8 again. Watch it happen.
[/quote]Indeed. He was stupid to use that word. He was stupid to admit it. And he was stupid for giving Fulham fans the finger.
Probably not racist? Definately a fuckwit.
 
The bullshit analogies being branded about are also a joke. The law/rules do not stipulate that "Saying negrito is an offense". They stipulate that racial slurs are an offense. Suarez did not use it as a racial slur, Evra misunderstood it as one. It is a MISUNDERSTANDING. No laws have been broken, no rules have been broken.

Say Anita gets fired from her job. And she "feels" it was sexual discrimination. Then the facts proved that it was not sexual discrimination on the part of her employer, but another harmless/acceptable reason. Some of you here are adopting the position that, well that's the employers fault. They should know better. They should learn a lesson. Anita felt she was discriminated against, so the employer is wrong and must suffer. Fuck off. That's utter bullshit.

This was a misunderstanding on the part of Evra/Anita. How in fucks name can that lead to an 8 game ban and a fine.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448829#msg1448829 date=1324469812]
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=47188.msg1448826#msg1448826 date=1324469689]
Are you *really* saying potential issues of race and racism should just be left on the pitch?

Would you really just brush it off had one of our players been racially abused?
[/quote]

If he, on his own initiative, made a complaint I'd back him all the way. What I would *not* do is intervene when he had already said it was no big deal to him and encourage him to take it further.
[/quote]

I'm not for a second saying fergies intentions on this are clean, but I can't agree with that at all jj I really can't. A player is racially abused and you would be happy for them to walk and give them opportunity continue to do it again.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1448834#msg1448834 date=1324470037]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448817#msg1448817 date=1324469509]
In a country which was at the heart of the Slave trade it's understandable why such language is deemed different here to elsewhere.
[/quote]

You mean the country that was the first to abolish the slave trade and stamped it out wherever they found it round the world?
[/quote]

great point
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448841#msg1448841 date=1324470344]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

... and you wonder why some people have exploded on this thread ...

Since you aren't one of the mental folk (thankfully as you are 6CM man of the year, and we don't want a mentalist winning that prestigious award):

1) if the term is used by Manure teammates on Evra too, should they be done for it?
2) why wasn't Evra done in for using an offensive term to Suarez?
[/quote]

1) Evra wouldn't lodge a complaint about that. Irrelevent.
2) Because we didn't lodge a complaint to the FA. United did. What Evra said was evidence and therefore not admissible in this court, but may well be in a different one. But as Ross has pointed out, it might be a bit 'playground' to go down that route, but personally I wouldn't be against it.
 
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=47188.msg1448850#msg1448850 date=1324470544]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1448834#msg1448834 date=1324470037]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448817#msg1448817 date=1324469509]
In a country which was at the heart of the Slave trade it's understandable why such language is deemed different here to elsewhere.
[/quote]

You mean the country that was the first to abolish the slave trade and stamped it out wherever they found it round the world?
[/quote]

great point
[/quote]

Jesus fuck.

Let's all pat ourselves on the back guys.
 
I hope Liverpool FC sue the arse off the F.A. over this. I don't believe any High Court Judge would be at all impressed by the F.A.'s evidence against Suarez. I would expect it to be comprehensively rejected, and heavy damages awarded to both the club and the player for serious damage to their reputations.

Although the F.A. carefully avoided calling Suarez a racist in their statement, the heaviness of the punishment implies that they think he is one. I don't believe that the F.A. can escape culpability by playing with words.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448851#msg1448851 date=1324470670]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448841#msg1448841 date=1324470344]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

... and you wonder why some people have exploded on this thread ...

Since you aren't one of the mental folk (thankfully as you are 6CM man of the year, and we don't want a mentalist winning that prestigious award):

1) if the term is used by Manure teammates on Evra too, should they be done for it?
2) why wasn't Evra done in for using an offensive term to Suarez?
[/quote]

1) Evra wouldn't lodge a complaint about that. Irrelevent.
2) Because we didn't lodge a complaint to the FA. United did. What Evra said was evidence and therefore not admissible in this court, but may well be in a different one. But as Ross has pointed out, it might be a bit 'playground' to go down that route, but personally I wouldn't be against it.
[/quote]

1) Does this not send the message that these kind of comments (which the FA are opposed) are ok when done amongst teammates.
2) I don't think we should - Evra most likely didn't mean anything by his comment (he was just angry) ... I thought if this was done in front of the FA by Evra himself, they have every right to punish him too.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

I'll bite....

Evra thought he was being cute by uttering his insults in Spanish and Suarez responded in kind. Evra got the hump and goes on French TV and basically accuses Suarez of being a card carrying member of the NF (sic) but doesn't mention anything about what he said about Suarez's nationality or the insults about his family. Opinions are formed and the cultural aspect (Suarez naively trying to defend himself) is ignored in favour of a PR exercise. Fergie threw the FA a juicy bone by complaining to Marriner and they weren't going to waste an opportunity to dish out, especially after we passed comment about Rooney and the need for a level playing field.

Given the headlines in the mirror today I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow's papers called for 'the dirty little racist south american' to be kicked out of the country. Because until Evra gets punished, the FA are saying it's acceptable to be xenophobic.
 
I'm kind of middle of the road on this, I think. But I can't believe so many people are harping on about evidence. Suarez admitted what he said, they don't need more evidence.
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=47188.msg1448849#msg1448849 date=1324470538]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448829#msg1448829 date=1324469812]
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=47188.msg1448826#msg1448826 date=1324469689]
Are you *really* saying potential issues of race and racism should just be left on the pitch?

Would you really just brush it off had one of our players been racially abused?
[/quote]

If he, on his own initiative, made a complaint I'd back him all the way. What I would *not* do is intervene when he had already said it was no big deal to him and encourage him to take it further.
[/quote]

I'm not for a second saying fergies intentions on this are clean, but I can't agree with that at all jj I really can't. A player is racially abused and you would be happy for them to walk and give them opportunity continue to do it again.
[/quote]

I would regard the decision as entirely up to the victim. In my view it would be insufferably arrogant of me to tell him how he ought to feel and what he ought to be doing about it.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1448854#msg1448854 date=1324470862]
I hope Liverpool FC sue the arse off the F.A. over this. I don't believe any High Court Judge would be at all impressed by the F.A.'s evidence against Suarez. I would expect it to be comprehensively rejected, and heavy damages awarded to both the club and the player for serious damage to their reputations.

Although the F.A. carefully avoided calling Suarez a racist in their statement, the heaviness of the punishment implies that they think he is one. I don't believe that the F.A. can escape culpability by playing with words.
[/quote]

now we are talking
 
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1448846#msg1448846 date=1324470449]
The bullshit analogies being branded about are also a joke. The law/rules do not stipulate that "Saying negrito is an offense". They stipulate that racial slurs are an offense. Suarez did not use it as a racial slur, Evra misunderstood it as one. It is a MISUNDERSTANDING. No laws have been broken, no rules have been broken.

Say Anita gets fired from her job. And she "feels" it was sexual discrimination. Then the facts proved that it was not sexual discrimination on the part of her employer, but another harmless/acceptable reason. Some of you here are adopting the position that, well that's the employers fault. They should know better. They should learn a lesson. Anita felt she was discriminated against, so the employer is wrong and must suffer. Fuck off. That's utter bullshit.

This was a misunderstanding on the part of Evra/Anita. How in fucks name can that lead to an 8 game ban and a fine.
[/quote]

Excellent post, one of a number from you in this thread.
 
Well said Portly

I cant be arsed to read through 99 pages of this and its probably been said repeatedly but can someone explain how someone who is partially black himself be racist against a black. An oxymoron if ever I heard one. Maybe Im just too old to understand.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448855#msg1448855 date=1324470895]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448851#msg1448851 date=1324470670]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1448841#msg1448841 date=1324470344]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1448827#msg1448827 date=1324469703]
I actual factual love this thread.
I really think some people are slightly mental.

Brilliant.
He said it. He admitted saying it. The end.

Theres some utter bollocks being spouted about everything else.

Each individual has to decide if they think he is a racist, or if they think the punishment is harsh or if they think *snigger* Fergie is behind it all and controls the FA etc etc
But he admitted using a word that caused offence and has been done for it.
The end.
[/quote]

... and you wonder why some people have exploded on this thread ...

Since you aren't one of the mental folk (thankfully as you are 6CM man of the year, and we don't want a mentalist winning that prestigious award):

1) if the term is used by Manure teammates on Evra too, should they be done for it?
2) why wasn't Evra done in for using an offensive term to Suarez?
[/quote]

1) Evra wouldn't lodge a complaint about that. Irrelevent.
2) Because we didn't lodge a complaint to the FA. United did. What Evra said was evidence and therefore not admissible in this court, but may well be in a different one. But as Ross has pointed out, it might be a bit 'playground' to go down that route, but personally I wouldn't be against it.
[/quote]

1) Does this not send the message that these kind of comments (which the FA are opposed) are ok when done amongst teammates.
2) I don't think we should - Evra most likely didn't mean anything by his comment (he was just angry) ... I thought if this was done in front of the FA by Evra himself, they have every right to punish him too.
[/quote]

The FA will only react to complaints made. I don't know what you point it about team-mates and the like, but it's never going to be an issue. Clubs will, for obvious reasons, keep that in in-house and away from the glare of the FA.

If Evra has said something unacceptable to the club should have launched an earlier complaint. Like it or not, stating proceedings now would have an air of sour grapes about it.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448861#msg1448861 date=1324471053]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1448846#msg1448846 date=1324470449]
The bullshit analogies being branded about are also a joke. The law/rules do not stipulate that "Saying negrito is an offense". They stipulate that racial slurs are an offense. Suarez did not use it as a racial slur, Evra misunderstood it as one. It is a MISUNDERSTANDING. No laws have been broken, no rules have been broken.

Say Anita gets fired from her job. And she "feels" it was sexual discrimination. Then the facts proved that it was not sexual discrimination on the part of her employer, but another harmless/acceptable reason. Some of you here are adopting the position that, well that's the employers fault. They should know better. They should learn a lesson. Anita felt she was discriminated against, so the employer is wrong and must suffer. Fuck off. That's utter bullshit.

This was a misunderstanding on the part of Evra/Anita. How in fucks name can that lead to an 8 game ban and a fine.
[/quote]

Excellent post, one of a number from you in this thread.
[/quote]

Yep, agreed.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1448857#msg1448857 date=1324470928]
I'm kind of middle of the road on this, I think. But I can't believe so many people are harping on about evidence. Suarez admitted what he said, they don't need more evidence.
[/quote]

I thought I was too ... but I'm not ...

What did he admit to saying exactly Gerry? Did he say 'negro' or 'negrito'?
 
[quote author=tony link=topic=47188.msg1448862#msg1448862 date=1324471096]
Maybe Im just too old to understand.
[/quote]

That's been a running theme mate.

Not to worry.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1448863#msg1448863 date=1324471124]

The FA will only react to complaints made. I don't know what you point it about team-mates and the like, but it's never going to be an issue. Clubs will, for obvious reasons, keep that in in-house and away from the glare of the FA.

If Evra has said something unacceptable to the club should have launched an earlier complaint. Like it or not, stating proceedings now would have an air of sour grapes about it.
[/quote]

But nobody heard it, it came out in the proceedings. Suarez said he didn't hear it. I'm sure he would have been a good citizen and reported it if he had.
 
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