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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

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[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1444726#msg1444726 date=1324060068]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1444724#msg1444724 date=1324060024]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1444710#msg1444710 date=1324059169]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1444700#msg1444700 date=1324058748]
I have to agree with Anita, the defences of Luis are laughable at best. (Luis being endearing to Evra during a game in which they're constantly at each other)

He's been stupid and is probably going to be punished for it.
[/quote]

What's laughable about the debate around what a word means in a different culture ? No-one is saying Suarez was being best pals with Evra but using 'negrita' (which is the only term I've heard was used) is akin to him being called no more than a fucking pussy. Then again, you must be loving all this given your immense enjoyment of anything negative to do with the club.
[/quote]

yeah i can't wait to see Luis banned. FFS

stop being a bellend
[/quote]

You're the fucking bellend, fat arse
[/quote]

Yeah I'm here. What do you want?
 
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1444725#msg1444725 date=1324060068]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1444714#msg1444714 date=1324059487]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1444710#msg1444710 date=1324059169]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1444700#msg1444700 date=1324058748]
I have to agree with Anita, the defences of Luis are laughable at best. (Luis being endearing to Evra during a game in which they're constantly at each other)

He's been stupid and is probably going to be punished for it.
[/quote]

What's laughable about the debate around what a word means in a different culture ? No-one is saying Suarez was being best pals with Evra but using 'negrita' (which is the only term I've heard was used) is akin to him being called no more than a fucking pussy. Then again, you must be loving all this given your immense enjoyment of anything negative to do with the club.
[/quote]

I thought it was a term of endearment a minute ago ?

Now it's an insult.

I'm confused.
[/quote]

It's not confusing. It can be used in both contexts. Suarez most likely was using it as an insult rather than in friendship. But in neither context is it used to be racist. However when you compare it to what he is charged with....
1. Did he insult Evra? Of course.
2. Did he make reference to Evra's race? Of course.

So even though he has not been racist towards Evra (i.e. 1 and 2 are not the same thing, he did them separately), he will nevertheless be found guilty, because he has been charged with each thing separately. The FA are basically being disingenuous cunts, or at best bottling out. They should have charged him with 1 and 2 as a single offense. But by decomposing it, they are effectively coping out. Of course nobody will see it in that way and they'll succeed in creating the impression they have punished a racist. Really they are just cunts.
[/quote]

Dantes speaketh the truth.
 
I hope Luis doesn't read visit 6CM and read this thread otherwise next time he hears our fans singing the club anthem he would be perfectly entitled to think "what a load of fucking bollocks."
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1444718#msg1444718 date=1324059769]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=47188.msg1444716#msg1444716 date=1324059733]
If Suarez is deemed a racist and if kenny stands besides him, then is kenny a racist by association. Shall we wait for more info before you start saying there is no defense to what Suarez said etc.....
[/quote]

That isn't what the issue that the FA are looking into, see monsiuerdantes post above
[/quote]

but that would be the implications of the verdict regardless of how the trial brief is worded..... Is there a specific reason why you are being pedantic?
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444703#msg1444703 date=1324058984]
Well if he didn't consider Negrito to be racist, indeed, if he calls white people negrito (as he almost certainly does) then I don't see how this is a laughable defence.

[/quote]

Hold on, are you sure the term is used also for white people? . My understanding was that it is a word to describe a person of black skin but that it didn't carry any real harmful meaning.
 
Wilko- you're talking as much shite as the people who want Suarez strung up or who refuse to see that he may have not intentionally been racially insulting Evra. YNWA is not an excuse for anyone wearing the Liverbird to expect unconditional support even if they're sullying the name of this legendary institution.

Dantes makes the most interesting point, but I would say that number 2 is exactly what may not be the case (if negrita/negrito can be used irrespective of race).
 
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1444738#msg1444738 date=1324060586]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444703#msg1444703 date=1324058984]
Well if he didn't consider Negrito to be racist, indeed, if he calls white people negrito (as he almost certainly does) then I don't see how this is a laughable defence.

[/quote]

Hold on, are you sure the term is used also for white people? . My understanding was that it is a word to describe a person of black skin but that it didn't carry any real harmful meaning.
[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure. There was a recent example of Pacheco tweeting his white (Spanish) friend and referring to him a s negrito. It is not a reference to black people.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47188.msg1444741#msg1444741 date=1324060692]
Confirmed no deciision until at least Tuesday
[/quote]

Hmmm. Why Tuesday? Legal consultations perhaps ? Or waiting to see how EBJT gets on down the bizzies ?
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444742#msg1444742 date=1324060765]
Wilko- you're talking as much shite as the people who want Suarez strung up or who refuse to see that he may have not intentionally been racially insulting Evra. YNWA is not an excuse for anyone wearing the Liverbird to expect unconditional support even if they're sullying the name of this legendary institution.

Dantes makes the most interesting point, but I would say that number 2 is exactly what may not be the case (if negrita/negrito can be used irrespective of race).
[/quote]

Bollocks.
 
So, Wilko, is Tommy Smith still alright with you after this little outburst:

From: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/04/why-did-club-legends-tommy-smith-and.html

But the straw that broke the camels back was the following statements he made about John Barnes and black people in general:

Smith caused considerable controversy in the late 1980s when he strongly protested Liverpool's signing of black England international winger John Barnes on account of the player's skin colour.

Smith allegedly stated that: "I never thought I would see the day when Liverpool would employ niggers, I don't want any niggers playing for Liverpool".

Smith also allegedly claimed that: "if my daughter came home with a ****, I'd go stark raving mad" and that "if a coon moved in next door to me, I'd move house. That's not racist, it's just normal".

These remarks attracted little publicity until they were included in a biography of Barnes published three years after he joined the club.

A Liverpool Echo journalist also once remarked that Smith's after dinner-speeches "make Stan Boardman look politically correct".

?

"No matter what they do ?"
 
[quote author=Wilko link=topic=47188.msg1444727#msg1444727 date=1324060145]
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1444720#msg1444720 date=1324059866]
[quote author=Wilko link=topic=47188.msg1444715#msg1444715 date=1324059556]


As long as Luis Suarez wears the Liverbird on his chest and continues to play his heart out for Liverpool then he'll always have my full support.
[/quote]

No matter what he does ?
[/quote]

As long as Luis Suarez wears the Liverbird on his chest and continues to play his heart out for Liverpool.
[/quote]

I wish i played my heart out for liverpool cause you'd have no problem when i turn up and stamp on your balls . In fact i'd have your full support to do it .
 
Actually I went to an after dinner speech with him once and he did come across as a bit cuntish with his hate of Emlyn Hughes
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444743#msg1444743 date=1324060874]
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1444738#msg1444738 date=1324060586]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444703#msg1444703 date=1324058984]
Well if he didn't consider Negrito to be racist, indeed, if he calls white people negrito (as he almost certainly does) then I don't see how this is a laughable defence.

[/quote]

Hold on, are you sure the term is used also for white people? . My understanding was that it is a word to describe a person of black skin but that it didn't carry any real harmful meaning.
[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure. There was a recent example of Pacheco tweeting his white (Spanish) friend and referring to him a s negrito. It is not a reference to black people.
[/quote]

Maybe that's similar to how american and english white people refer to each other using the N word, thinking they are all gangsta or whatever. It's clearly not a slur to black people's race. But I don't know how Suarez can defend that is not a reference to black people at all.
 
So I guess we can look away from all the rumours then? Confirmed by Kay and Lowe that no desicsion has been made and the panel will continue working on this over the Weekend.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444743#msg1444743 date=1324060874]
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1444738#msg1444738 date=1324060586]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444703#msg1444703 date=1324058984]
Well if he didn't consider Negrito to be racist, indeed, if he calls white people negrito (as he almost certainly does) then I don't see how this is a laughable defence.

[/quote]

Hold on, are you sure the term is used also for white people? . My understanding was that it is a word to describe a person of black skin but that it didn't carry any real harmful meaning.
[/quote]



Yes, I'm sure. There was a recent example of Pacheco tweeting his white (Spanish) friend and referring to him a s negrito. It is not a reference to black people.
[/quote]



Hmm i'm still not so sure ...i thought it came from the word "negro" which is "black" . Although maybe it has been adopted to mean "mate" or "bro" etc .

Also i just read this ...


Is the term "negrito" viewed as racist in Spanish-speaking Latin America? Unfortunately for the Football Association, the answer is yes and no.

Luis Suarez's lawyers are right to argue that addressing a person by referring to their appearance, including race, is common practice from Tijuana to Tierra del Fuego.

Spanish terms for "fatty", "skinny", "shorty", "whitey" and even "chino" – literally meaning "Chinese" – are often used in the way many Britons might say "mate".

So too is the term "negro", meaning "black". Although most English-speakers might find any of these terms offensive, they are usually taken neutrally in Latin America.

But what complicates the FA's decision is Suarez's alleged use of the diminutive, adding "ito" to the term "negro". It can indicate affection, especially when said between people who know each other intimately. But it can also be used to belittle.
Click to expand...


clears things right up !!
 
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1444760#msg1444760 date=1324062000]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444743#msg1444743 date=1324060874]
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1444738#msg1444738 date=1324060586]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1444703#msg1444703 date=1324058984]
Well if he didn't consider Negrito to be racist, indeed, if he calls white people negrito (as he almost certainly does) then I don't see how this is a laughable defence.

[/quote]

Hold on, are you sure the term is used also for white people? . My understanding was that it is a word to describe a person of black skin but that it didn't carry any real harmful meaning.
[/quote]



Yes, I'm sure. There was a recent example of Pacheco tweeting his white (Spanish) friend and referring to him a s negrito. It is not a reference to black people.
[/quote]



Hmm i'm still not so sure ...i thought it came from the word "negro" which is "black" . Although maybe it has been adopted to mean "mate" or "bro" etc .

Also i just read this ...


Is the term "negrito" viewed as racist in Spanish-speaking Latin America? Unfortunately for the Football Association, the answer is yes and no.

Luis Suarez's lawyers are right to argue that addressing a person by referring to their appearance, including race, is common practice from Tijuana to Tierra del Fuego.

Spanish terms for "fatty", "skinny", "shorty", "whitey" and even "chino" – literally meaning "Chinese" – are often used in the way many Britons might say "mate".

So too is the term "negro", meaning "black". Although most English-speakers might find any of these terms offensive, they are usually taken neutrally in Latin America.

But what complicates the FA's decision is Suarez's alleged use of the diminutive, adding "ito" to the term "negro". It can indicate affection, especially when said between people who know each other intimately. But it can also be used to belittle.
Click to expand...


clears things right up !!
[/quote]

In a way it does. Everything here is completely irrelevant other than when it talks about the 'ito' addition. If he didn't say negro (and according to him he didn't) then he was using a term that was not racially exclusive. That's a shite article. If he said negrito/ negrita then negro (and its definite association with colour) should not be part of the discussion. The etymology of the word is irrelevant. Current cultural context is what should matter.
 
I feel like I'm in a decent position here to talk about this.

I'm of mixed race, and studying Spanish, and Latin American cultures. If he used the word "negrito", which is the suggestion he did, then it was almost certainly not meant in an offensive way. What is the norm here in the UK is not the norm in other cultures, so to punish him because of cultural differences could be construed as equally bigoted. Who's to say what is right when it comes to culture? Uruguay has a large black population, and the term "negrito" is commonplace in the country. They don't get accused of racism.

South American cultures often involve race in appearences. Look at Alvara Recoba, he's known as "El Chino" - The Chinese - because of his appearence. We could construe that as racist here in the UK, but it's not even questioned in Latin cultures.

As JJ said, his English won't be great, he won't know of the cultures. He won't know what's offensive. Cultural differences can cause all sorts of issues, even if no offence was intended. For example, in many eastern cultures, business cards have to be accepted in a particular way, and studied in a caring manner. Here in the UK, we'd take the business card and stick it in our pocket. We'd be condemned in China/Japan for that.

For those who have already decided he's racist should take into account the possibility of the cultural differences, the meaning of the word and everything else. The fact that De Gea heard nothing offensive speaks volumes in my opinion. He probably heard "negrito" being used and thought nothing of it, as he wouldn't being from Spain.

As I said a few pages back, I know a Spanish girl, who has a black boyfriend by the way, and she said the term 'negrito' is "a lovely thing to say. It's not offensive. At all."
 
Thank you Halmeister, perfect explanation. Still, he's a racist cunt obviously because the FA may deem it so.
 
Cheers lads.

That said, I do think he perhaps should have been more tactful in what he was saying. Maybe the club should introduce some sort of initiative of cultural diversity training or something. Just so the players know what's acceptable in the country and what isn't.

Also, I base that explanation only on "negrito". I'm assuming that's what he said. If he said something else, or something intentionally offensive then he's had it.

I still think he'll face a ban, though. A lengthy one.
 
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=47188.msg1444786#msg1444786 date=1324066075]
Cheers lads.

That said, I do think he perhaps should have been more tactful in what he was saying. Maybe the club should introduce some sort of initiative of cultural diversity training or something. Just so the players know what's acceptable in the country and what isn't.

Also, I base that explanation only on "negrito". I'm assuming that's what he said. If he said something else, or something intentionally offensive then he's had it.

I still think he'll face a ban, though. A lengthy one.
[/quote]

Excellent post earlier. Thank you for shedding some much needed light on all this. If nothing else, the whole unfortunate business should at least have functioned as a kind of training course in its own right.

I'm more optimistic than you regarding the outcome. I've heard it said that, when a jury comes back into court quickly after a criminal trial, that's usually a sign that they've found the defendant guilty, since the kind of uncertainty which would otherwise have delayed them makes it hard to convict someone. Here's hoping that principle applies in this case too.
 
I am not hoping for Suarez to get off.
Nor am I hoping that he is found guilty.

I am hoping that justice will be done.
 
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