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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

Can the fact that Suarez was questioned once to Evras four times, and that Evra made his statement while watching the video evidence while Suarez did not, be used in an appeal as to if this process was fair under rule K?

Suarez credibility would have been a lot different if he could give his version while seeing the evidence, and had 3 more times to talk about the events.
 
Nice Article

THE FA: A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES

by TheAnfieldWrap // 3 January 2012 // 2 Comments


by Sam Jones

The FA, and their legal representatives will doubtless be relieved that in the aftermath of the release of their written reasons for the outcome they reached following the charges brought against Luis Suarez, that so much time, effort and emotion has been spent by so many people on completely missing the point.

Much has been made of the issue of “is Luis Suarez a racist”. The Daily Mirror think so. Manchester United fans seem to think so too, although many Liverpool fans don’t. It doesn’t matter. The question hasn’t even been addressed.

A lot of time and effort has been spent debating how the FA arrived at the conclusion that Evra is a more reliable witness than Suarez. Doesn’t matter, they are entitled to make whatever findings of fact that they like. The decisions of juries are far more serious and don’t undergo this scrutiny.

The only real remaining issue, in so far as it affects “what next” is the basis for an appeal. The FA’s rules say you can lodge an appeal for the following reasons;

(vii) The appeal may only be allowed on one or more of the following grounds:

(a) The Regulatory Commission misinterpreted or failed to comply with the rules or regulations relevant to its decision; and/or

(b) came to a decision to which no reasonable such body could have come; and/or

(c) the penalty, order or sanction imposed was excessive.

So this means that an appeal can be because they got the law wrong, the decision was clearly perverse or the sanction is too harsh.

Do any of these apply?

In spite of the feelings of many, the decision is not clearly perverse, nor is the sanction too great, assuming the validity of the outcome is accepted.

This leaves points of law. What points of law applied, and what points of law did the FA consider when reaching its verdict?

First is the “burden of proof”. This is the issue of who has to prove what. This rests with the FA, they have to prove Suarez’s guilt, not he his innocence.

Secondly, the “standard of proof”. This is the extent to which it needs to be proven. In criminal cases this is “beyond reasonable doubt”, for the purposes of the FA commission it is, as with civil law, “the balance of probabilities” so, is it more likely than not. Critically though, it is the “flexible civil standard”, so the more serious the allegation the more proof needed.

The final, and most controversial issue, is the matter of whether the FA’s disciplinary rule E 3(1) should have an “objective” i.e. do the panel feel the act has been committed, or “subjective” i.e. was the act intended, test applied. This is the issue on which the whole case turned.

The FA made a number of points relating to the applicable law. Their representative, Mr Paul Greaney QC is a barrister, a Queen’s Counsel no less. A QC is the elite amongst barristers, the Fernando Torres 08/09 of legal representation. He made their arguments, covering the area of law that is crucial to the case.

He made the assertion that the FA rule E 3(1) should be tested objectively. That is, it doesn’t matter what Suarez intended, only what the panel felt he had done.

In order to justify this he claims that it is analogous to some pieces of criminal law. This then, needs a little background.

In criminal law there a two principles, mens rea the guilty mind, and actus reus, the guilty act. Fitting perhaps that bad Latin creeps into the discussion of bad Spanish.

In order to be convicted of a crime it must be established that, not only have you done the act, but also that there is some element of intent. This may be outright intent, it may be negligence or even recklessness, but there is a mental component.

The are some exceptions to this, strict liability offences, but they are few and far between and include things like speeding or statutory rape. For these offences there can be no excuse of “I didn’t mean it”.

The FA made the case that rule E 3(1) was to be tested objectively – was strict liability. They likened it to an offence under the Public Order Act, Liverpool’s lawyer, seemingly the Christian Purslow of legal representation, noted this, but doesn’t seem to have pursed it very vigorously.

In effect the FA state that rule E 3(1) is analogous to a crime under the Public Order Act 1986. The part of the statute they quote is:

5 Harassment, alarm or distress.

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour,

or

(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

They say the wording of this is similar enough to E 3(1) to use it as an analogy, and that because later in the same act it says;

(4)A person is guilty of an offence under section 5 only if he intends his words or behaviour, or the writing, sign or other visible representation, to be threatening, abusive or insulting, or is aware that it may be threatening, abusive or insulting or (as the case may be) he intends his behaviour to be or is aware that it may be disorderly.

The FA reasoned that because this is separate to section 5 that section 5 therefore does not have an inherent intention for a mental element for the offence.

All well and good, you might say. But they left out another part of section 5;

(3) It is a defence for the accused to prove—

(a) that he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or

(b) that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation displayed, would be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling, or

(c) that his conduct was reasonable.

[size=8pt]So section 5 expressly provides for a mental element but the FA ignore it. So, either the FA’s QC is not legally competent, or, in order to make a case against Suarez they have resorted to outright mendacity in their legal reasoning[/size].

There is a further issue here. If you are convicted of an offence under section 5 you are facing a fine of up to up to £1000, level 3.

In the same act there is a more serious version of this offence, providing for up to 6 months in prison, and a £5000 fine, the maximum a magistrate can issue. The wording is almost identical to the section 5 offence. The difference? Intent.

4A Intentional harassment, alarm or distress.

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour,

or

(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

Now, the FA reckon Suarez has committed a serious offence. They have banned him for 8 games and fined him £40,000. They say it’s serious, “wholly unacceptable” yet, the analogy they use in criminal law is the lesser of two almost identical offences. Incompetence, or again, mendacity?

In seeking to establish that a subjective test should be used they cite the House of Lords in a 1973 case. They ignore though, the following guidance from the same court on the issue of strict liability offences in the case of Sweet v Parsley [1970];
1.Wherever a section is silent as to mens rea there is a presumption that, in order to give effect to the will of Parliament, words importing mens rea must be read into the provision.
2.It is a universal principle that if a penal provision is reasonably capable of two interpretations, that interpretation which is most favourable to the accused must be adopted.
3.The fact that other sections of the Act expressly require mens rea is not in itself sufficient to justify a decision that a section which is silent as to mens rea creates an absolute offence. It is necessary to go outside the Act and examine all relevant circumstances in order to establish that this must have been the intention of Parliament.

So, the highest court in the land basically forbids their line of reasoning?

And what do the FA do?


I’ll leave it to you to decide what the FA were trying to achieve here, suffice it to say, there appears to be, even to the untrained eye, more than grounds for appeal on a number of issues in law, and it would be fair to say the FA won’t really want this playing out in a real court with proper legal representation for Luis Suarez.

I wonder what Grabiner would make of it all?
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454706#msg1454706 date=1325599047]
The N*gger call came first from Fergie didnt it?
[/quote]

Only because thats what Evra told him
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454710#msg1454710 date=1325599626]
Can the fact that Suarez was questioned once to Evras four times, and that Evra made his statement while watching the video evidence while Suarez did not, be used in an appeal as to if this process was fair under rule K?

Suarez credibility would have been a lot different if he could give his version while seeing the evidence, and had 3 more times to talk about the events.
[/quote]

And the way the FA will reply is to say...

We accept that Suarez should have been questioned again, and with the benefit of video. However the FA investigative committee have explained why this was not possible (a combination of practical reasons, logistics and time constraints) which are wholly reasonable. There is no evidence that this oversight was an indication of bias. Furthermore, given the entirety of the hearing and its findings, we are in agreement with the FA that had Suarez been question again his testimony would not have been likely to change in any way that would have had a material effect upon the final outcome. For those reasons it is not possible to uphold the appeal.

You can't make it that easy for them. Why are people so fucking nice? Congratulations you seem to be a nice guy, gee whiz I can't for the life of me work out why you got bent over and fucked? Who knew?
 
The secret is to question every single thing and there are so many questionable decisions and use of process in this document as to be laughable. One example being how Evra was allowed to give his evidence alongside the video footage but Suarez wasnt. This questions fairness and impartiality in process never mind the decision, if you can argue failure of or lack of impartiality in the process ,then the case is winnable.

By Mark Peters
 
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1454729#msg1454729 date=1325601495]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454706#msg1454706 date=1325599047]
The N*gger call came first from Fergie didnt it?
[/quote]

Only because thats what Evra told him
[/quote]

No, Evra stated he had been calling a N*gger when agreeing with Ferguson, not before. Earlier he used the words negro.
 
Safe to say that if we decide not appeal then we should be expected to announce that decision before the Oldham match - so as to avoid 'eating' into the Man Utd, Everton and Arsenal league matches?
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454733#msg1454733 date=1325602089]
The secret is to question every single thing and there are so many questionable decisions and use of process in this document as to be laughable. One example being how Evra was allowed to give his evidence alongside the video footage but Suarez wasnt. This questions fairness and impartiality in process never mind the decision, if you can argue failure of or lack of impartiality in the process ,then the case is winnable.

By Mark Peters
[/quote]

The worry is that our solicitor would struggle to write his shopping list given 14 days, never mind an appeal letter. To question everything I would ask for an extension, but it could be refused. It is probably better to have a few main things we are appealing (like the article you posted which is correct in what it views as the most important grounds for appeal). Then mention all our other questions/objections in passing as bullet points. But right now there isn't the time or a competent solicitor to expand those bullet points into a well thought out case.
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454734#msg1454734 date=1325602314]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1454729#msg1454729 date=1325601495]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454706#msg1454706 date=1325599047]
The N*gger call came first from Fergie didnt it?
[/quote]

Only because thats what Evra told him
[/quote]

No, Evra stated he had been calling a N*gger when agreeing with Ferguson, not before. Earlier he used the words negro.
[/quote]

well Im pretty sure the committee made it clear that whatever Ferguson said in the ref's room was a repeat of what Evra said to him.
 
Can anyone see the FA reducing the punishment on appeal? I can't. If they did, the cry would go up from the usual suspects that the FA is soft on racism.
 
Unlikely but not impossible IMO. A lot may depend (a) on how competently Suarez is represented and (b) on whether they think there's a chance we could get this into court subsequently, which itself partly depends on (a).
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454612#msg1454612 date=1325590997]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1454583#msg1454583 date=1325587870]
I've just read the document. And I've changed my mind, they were right to convict Suarez and an appeal would be pointless.

I'm also beginning to think he is actually a racist.
[/quote]Shit. Fergie got to you too.
[/quote]
And me, sadly.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1454785#msg1454785 date=1325604958]
Can anyone see the FA reducing the punishment on appeal? I can't. If they did, the cry would go up from the usual suspects that the FA is soft on racism.
[/quote]

Its going to get overturned not reduced, its a travesty.
 
The FA can't overturn it, even if the appeal panel would like to do so. The appeal can vary only the penalty, not the finding of guilt or innocence. Getting the whole thing scrubbed out will take a subsequent court order.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47188.msg1454805#msg1454805 date=1325605863]
It's more likely to be increased to 10 games.
[/quote]

No, it isn't. That can only happen if it's deemed frivolous, such a finding by the FA would materially increase our chances of getting leave to pursue the matter in court and the FA will be very keen to avoid that.
 
Jules, they may well conclude that the appeal is frivolous and increase the ban, how can you deny this? How in hell would that 'materially increase our chances of getting leave..."? Leave from whom?

From looking at several months of discussions on this here forum one can see that the people who said the following:

1. He won't be charged.

and then when he was charged said...

2. He'll be acquitted

and then said...

3. He wuz framed by a vast Ferguson/FA/alien conspiracy

are now the ones who think we can have a successful appeal.

The ones who said:

1. He might be charged

and when he was charged said

2. He might be found guilty

are the ones saying we may not appeal at all because if we do we are likely to fail and have the punishment increased.

[size=36pt]EAT MY FACTS!![/size]
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47188.msg1454814#msg1454814 date=1325606603]
[size=36pt]EAT MY FACTS!![/size]
[/quote]

If your post is a parody of the way the FA established their facts, then you really are a top class genius
 
Gene, not a single one of those of us with whom you're taking issue said any of those things or denied he *might* be charged/found guilty. We said he shouldn't be charged or found guilty, but that's a very different matter, and - for the 675th time - the point about Ferguson is not that he conspired with the FA, but that he saw his chance of stirring this up and took it when Evra spoke to him AFTER telling French TV that it was no big deal.

Nor am I or anyone else denying we may not appeal. On the contrary I've said the decision will depend on what advice we get.

Nor am I or anyone else saying the sentence "won't be increased". I'm saying it's unlikely because that's a punishment for frivolous appeals, which this self-evidently wouldn't be, but the grotesquely cavalier way in which the FA have operated this procedure certainly makes anything possible.

Leave would need to be sought from the High Court to issue an action for judicial review, which would be the legal recourse for Suarez and the club should they decide to pursue it. Again as I've already said more than once, that decision also would depend on advice received.
 
Legal proceedings are to establish someones guilt/innocence of certain charges. It's a game with two outcomes.... guilt.....and innocence. That's all in an ideal world though. The moment Suarez walked into the hearing it was a different game. The FA stacked the deck and there was never any game that would end in guilt or innocence. The only two outcomes were a 4-game ban or an 8-game ban. So the game i_rushie and rosco are trying to play is obsolete now. Any talk of an appeal to deal with guilt/innocence is so childlike in it's naivety. Wake the hell up and get with it!

This appeal that we submit must still have two outcomes which to an outsider appear to be "upheld/dismissed". It will still be a game in that respect. But the difference is now it is our turn to "stack the deck". And you need to make fucking sure the only outcomes available to the FA are "we take a million pounds and knock out all your teeth" or "we take two million and knock out half of your teeth". You choose. Those are the two options. The game rushie and rosco are on about is only in some magical fairytale land.

The FA fucked up their chance, because they stacked the deck and left obvious signs of their "mendacity" in doing so. We can be equally vindictive, frivolous, vicious, cheating cunts..... the only thing we need worry about is to make sure we appear genuine and appear to play nicely. And cover our tracks. That's it. That's the game dantes plays. And I win. I always win.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47188.msg1454805#msg1454805 date=1325605863]
It's more likely to be increased to 10 games.
[/quote]

I think so too, the evidence they've released is pretty damning. If we appeal we're likely to get a longer suspension.
 
[quote author=iseered link=topic=47188.msg1454793#msg1454793 date=1325605427]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454612#msg1454612 date=1325590997]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1454583#msg1454583 date=1325587870]
I've just read the document. And I've changed my mind, they were right to convict Suarez and an appeal would be pointless.

I'm also beginning to think he is actually a racist.
[/quote]Shit. Fergie got to you too.
[/quote]
And me, sadly.
[/quote]That evil all powerful bastard!!
*shakes fists to heavens*
WHY LORD WHY!!
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1454834#msg1454834 date=1325608101]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47188.msg1454805#msg1454805 date=1325605863]
It's more likely to be increased to 10 games.
[/quote]

I think so too, the evidence they've released is pretty damning. If we appeal we're likely to get a longer suspension.
[/quote]

fa - 'deal or no deal?'
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454837#msg1454837 date=1325608227]
[quote author=iseered link=topic=47188.msg1454793#msg1454793 date=1325605427]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454612#msg1454612 date=1325590997]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1454583#msg1454583 date=1325587870]
I've just read the document. And I've changed my mind, they were right to convict Suarez and an appeal would be pointless.

I'm also beginning to think he is actually a racist.
[/quote]Shit. Fergie got to you too.
[/quote]
And me, sadly.
[/quote]That evil all powerful bastard!!
*shakes fists to heavens*
WHY LORD WHY!!
[/quote]

He is the bestest manager ever at the bestest club ever... he would never have said anything untrue or had a go at our players. He is a sir for gods sake. Behave!!
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454845#msg1454845 date=1325608427]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454837#msg1454837 date=1325608227]
[quote author=iseered link=topic=47188.msg1454793#msg1454793 date=1325605427]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454612#msg1454612 date=1325590997]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1454583#msg1454583 date=1325587870]
I've just read the document. And I've changed my mind, they were right to convict Suarez and an appeal would be pointless.

I'm also beginning to think he is actually a racist.
[/quote]Shit. Fergie got to you too.
[/quote]
And me, sadly.
[/quote]That evil all powerful bastard!!
*shakes fists to heavens*
WHY LORD WHY!!
[/quote]

He is the bestest manager ever at the bestest club ever... he would never have said anything untrue or had a go at our players. He is a sir for gods sake. Behave!!
[/quote]Of all the posters in this thread you (and there has been stiff competition) have probably been the most cabbage like.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1454863#msg1454863 date=1325609042]
Don't like your own medicine, do you.
[/quote]Sorry JJ. Not EVERYONE can be most cabbage like.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1454825#msg1454825 date=1325607486]
Gene, not a single one of those of us with whom you're taking issue said any of those things or denied he *might* be charged/found guilty. We said he shouldn't be charged or found guilty, but that's a very different matter, and - for the 675th time - the point about Ferguson is not that he conspired with the FA, but that he saw his chance of stirring this up and took it when Evra spoke to him AFTER telling French TV that it was no big deal.

Nor am I or anyone else denying we may not appeal. On the contrary I've said the decision will depend on what advice we get.

Nor am I or anyone else saying the sentence "won't be increased". I'm saying it's unlikely because that's a punishment for frivolous appeals, which this self-evidently wouldn't be, but the grotesquely cavalier way in which the FA have operated this procedure certainly makes anything possible.

Leave would need to be sought from the High Court to issue an action for judicial review, which would be the legal recourse for Suarez and the club should they decide to pursue it. Again as I've already said more than once, that decision also would depend on advice received.


[/quote]

Sorry Jules, I addressed you but was really talking for the most part to Asbo and others which wasn't right.
 
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