The real GOAT

[Brizzle]

Starting a new thread as I didn't look into the previous Random Shite thread meltdown.

These are obviously carefully selected stats and I imagine with a few more seasons in La Liga are ones that Ronaldo will be competing for.

Regardless - these two I think will go down as the 2 greatest players of all time. In 10-20 years I think we'll be reaching a period when pundits, tv presenters, journalists have not need Pele or Maradona first hand and I'd expect these two to take the majority of the plaudits.

I saw a stat the other day too that he has just scored 40 goals for the 4th season in a row.

 

[Fabio]

There's no doubt Messi will finish his career as the greatest the world has ever see stats wise... But I still prefer Ronaldo

Ronaldo has it all. Pace, power, set pieces, clinical finishing, heading ability... He's the complete player for me.

If he was playing for Real from 17 I think he'd have stats easily comparable to messi

 

[Best Believe It]

Starting a new thread as I didn't look into the previous Random Shite thread meltdown.

These are obviously carefully selected stats and I imagine with a few more seasons in La Liga are ones that Ronaldo will be competing for.

Regardless - these two I think will go down as the 2 greatest players of all time. In 10-20 years I think we'll be reaching a period when pundits, tv presenters, journalists have not need Pele or Maradona first hand and I'd expect these two to take the majority of the plaudits.

I saw a stat the other day too that he has just scored 40 goals for the 4th season in a row.

The issue with the greatest player of all time debate is that people born in the 90s and later will probably see the European Cup in its current incarnation as the biggest competition in the world, whereas for me and I suspect for fans of the same age and older it's the World Cup. So my own view of Maradona being the best is because he ripped it up on the international stage, and as far as I am concerned that's a benchmark. Whereas now, with all the money and pizzazz involved, there may well be an argument that it's more impressive to be turning it on in the European Cup.

I suspect that you're right, as time goes on and there are fewer people around who view the World Cup as more important (or at least remember when it used to be), the more likely Messi and Ronaldo will be held up as the best.

 

[Brizzle]

Ronaldo was arguably a slower starter - I would put that partly down to growing a bit and losing some co-ordination during that phase and competing in a much harder league whereas Messi was at his full stature by about 16!

They play different games that require different attributes and his pace and power is what has gotten Ronaldo so many of his goals whereas Messi must get about 80% of his from technique.

 

[Judge Jules]

I'll see your Ronaldo or Messi and raise you George Best. Best could do anything and everything these guys do AND tackle like a pitbull to get the ball when it wasn't coming to him. No footballer since has had the same range of skills at the highest level.

 

[Brizzle]

The issue with the greatest player of all time debate is that people born in the 90s and later will probably see the European Cup in its current incarnation as the biggest competition in the world, whereas for me and I suspect for fans of the same age and older it's the World Cup. So my own view of Maradona being the best is because he ripped it up on the international stage, and as far as I am concerned that's a benchmark. Whereas now, with all the money and pizzazz involved, there may well be an argument that it's more impressive to be turning it on in the European Cup.

I suspect that you're right, as time goes on and there are fewer people around who view the World Cup as more important (or at least remember when it used to be), the more likely Messi and Ronaldo will be held up as the best.

My problem with basing players on International performances is the amount of friendlies against dross and half of the WC/ European Championship games being against village teams. For me the Champions League *is* a much higher standard.

 

[Brizzle]

I'll see your Ronaldo or Messi and raise you George Best. Best could do anything and everything these guys do AND tackle like a pitbull to get the ball when it wasn't coming to him. No footballer since has had the same range of skills at the highest level.

I have to admit I don't know anything about George Best - was he in an era where he was televised much? Might have to put some time aside to watch some YouTubes if there are any.

 

[Rosco]

Well Messi has always had the Barcelona advantage - the three suspended doctors.

Ronaldo clearly has had the same access since he arrived at Madrid.

Those two are however so far ahead of everyone else on the planet I don't think you can say that they are correctly labelled as world class - If other players are also labelled world class.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I'll see your Ronaldo or Messi and raise you George Best. Best could do anything and everything these guys do

Except score anywhere near as many goals at the top level.

 

[Rosco]

Except score anywhere near as many goals at the top level.

Or do it for as long as these two have

 

[Judge Jules]

I have to admit I don't know anything about George Best - was he in an era where he was televised much? Might have to put some time aside to watch some YouTubes if there are any.

He was televised pretty often. You will unfortunately find yourself watching predominantly ManU vids as that was where he had all his success - he was never going to get any internationally as he played for Norn Iron (sorry Doc and others) and his career ended prematurely as he drank himself into an early grave. That last bit persuades some to say he couldn't have been the greatest, but IMO that's getting two different things confused. Did he have the greatest career ever? Definitely not. But could he do more things well at top level than any other footballer I've ever seen? Absolutely.

 

[RedStar]

I'll see your Ronaldo or Messi and raise you George Best. Best could do anything and everything these guys do AND tackle like a pitbull to get the ball when it wasn't coming to him. No footballer since has had the same range of skills at the highest level.

In the most prolific season of his entire career Best grabbed 28 goals in the league, thats from a 41 game season. In the last 6 years 28 league goals is the lowest total Messi has recorded, and that was from 31 games. If you want to argue Best was a better player thats fair enough its a subjective conversation but the idea that he could do anything Messi could do and more is clearly not true.

 

[Brizzle]

It would be interesting to see stats of average goals per season, per club over the past few decades. Is this going up over the years (e.g. fitter players, ball easier to hit from distance etc etc) or was there not much material difference?

 

[Judge Jules]

In the most prolific season of his entire career Best grabbed 28 goals in the league, thats from a 41 game season. In the last 6 years 28 league goals is the lowest total Messi has recorded, and that was from 31 games. If you want to argue Best was a better player thats fair enough its a subjective conversation but the idea that he could do anything Messi could do and more is clearly not true.

That assumes football was the same then as it is now, which I can tell you (don't know how old you are) is nonsense - defenders got away with vastly more then - and that the competition in the Spanish League is as fierce as it always has been here, which it clearly isn't. It also uses goals as the only criterion of quality. If that's your view, I don't share it.

 

[RedStar]

I imagine with a few more seasons in La Liga are ones that Ronaldo will be competing for

That might be the case if their ages were the other way around but Messi is younger than Ronaldo by 3 years so its highly unlikely Ronaldo will catch up with him

 

[RedStar]

That assumes football was the same then as it is now, which I can tell you (don't know how old you are) is nonsense - defenders got away with vastly more then - and that the competition in the Spanish League is as fierce as it always has been here, which it clearly isn't. It also uses goals as the only criterion of quality. If that's your view, I don't share it.

Which criterion are you using, goals, assists, trophies, awards, records, nostalgia ?

 

[Judge Jules]

Which criterion are you using, goals, assists, trophies, awards, records, nostalgia ?

None of the above, because they all depend to some extent on factors outside the individual players' own control. In this kind of debate I look at individual players' skill sets. Could Best dribble as well as Messi or Ronaldo? Yes. Could he use either foot as well as they can? Yes. Could he head the ball? Yes, as well as Ronaldo and better than Messi. Could he play wide or down the middle? Yes. Was he as quick? Yes. Could he do it all at the highest level? Yes. The dividing line for me comes when looking at Best's defensive qualities - if the ball wasn't getting to him, or if ManU lost it, he could and did drop back, tackle like a little demon and win it back again. Nobody else I've seen in fifty years has had such a complete armoury of skills.

 

[Mors]

Best player ever. Messi>Maradona>Pele for me.
There have been lots of brilliant players, but we're very lucky to have been fans of the game when Messi has been about.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

It would be interesting to see stats of average goals per season, per club over the past few decades. Is this going up over the years (e.g. fitter players, ball easier to hit from distance etc etc) or was there not much material difference?

I can't find full stats, so I quickly did Liverpool's ones per decade:
1890's 2.124877451
1900's 1.825232198
1910's 1.43588137
1920's 1.628571429
1930's 1.743386243
1940's 1.583333333
1950's 1.795238095
1960's 1.804761905
1970's 1.545238095
1980's 1.839191729
1990's 1.596867168
2000's 1.644736842
2010's 1.828947368


I'm not sure we can read a huge amount into it as we were better for periods, and in different divisions in others, but looks like we did better in the 60's and 80's.

It would be interesting to see more representative ones. @King Binny

 

[Comical Aly]

Which criterion are you using, goals, assists, trophies, awards, records, nostalgia ?

There should be some adjustment for blood alcohol level too.

 

[peterhague]

IMO Maradona was definitely better than Messi. Presumably Pele was too but it's hard to get enough footage of him.

 

[Silver Sean]

None of the above, because they all depend to some extent on factors outside the individual players' own control. In this kind of debate I look at individual players' skill sets. Could Best dribble as well as Messi or Ronaldo? Yes. Could he use either foot as well as they can? Yes. Could he head the ball? Yes, as well as Ronaldo and better than Messi. Could he play wide or down the middle? Yes. Was he as quick? Yes. Could he do it all at the highest level? Yes. The dividing line for me comes when looking at Best's defensive qualities - if the ball wasn't getting to him, or if ManU lost it, he could and did drop back, tackle like a little demon and win it back again. Nobody else I've seen in fifty years has had such a complete armoury of skills.

Are you a closet manc? 😉 He was alright I guess. But the best ever? Not even close. Top 10 maybe.

 

[Silver Sean]

I though this was a thread about Shaun Goater.

 

[Judge Jules]

Are you a closet manc? 😉 He was alright I guess. But the best ever? Not even close. Top 10 maybe.

Haha. For sure I don't like the fact that in bigging Best up I'm bigging up someone who played for them, but in all honesty I can't nominate anybody else for this title. We'll have to agree to differ about that last bit above. [Handshake graemlin]

 

[Brizzle]

Stanley Matthews..

 

[RedStar]

None of the above, because they all depend to some extent on factors outside the individual players' own control. In this kind of debate I look at individual players' skill sets. Could Best dribble as well as Messi or Ronaldo? Yes. Could he use either foot as well as they can? Yes. Could he head the ball? Yes, as well as Ronaldo and better than Messi. Could he play wide or down the middle? Yes. Was he as quick? Yes. Could he do it all at the highest level? Yes. The dividing line for me comes when looking at Best's defensive qualities - if the ball wasn't getting to him, or if ManU lost it, he could and did drop back, tackle like a little demon and win it back again. Nobody else I've seen in fifty years has had such a complete armoury of skills.

I seriously doubt he was as fast as Ronaldo, and theres no way I would put him ahead of Messi dribbling. Out wide he might have have a case but through the middle Messi is the most consistently devastating player thats ever played the game. He might have done it at the highest level but he didnt do it as consistently or with the same longevity as Messi or Ronaldo. If I'm choosing the greatest player of all time I'll take the one who creates/scores more than any other player ever over one who puts in a good shift defensiely

 

[cloggypop]

I though this was a thread about Shaun Goater.

He's not fit to lace George Best's drinks.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I can't find full stats, so I quickly did Liverpool's ones per decade:
1890's 2.124877451
1900's 1.825232198
1910's 1.43588137
1920's 1.628571429
1930's 1.743386243
1940's 1.583333333
1950's 1.795238095
1960's 1.804761905
1970's 1.545238095
1980's 1.839191729
1990's 1.596867168
2000's 1.644736842
2010's 1.828947368


I'm not sure we can read a huge amount into it as we were better for periods, and in different divisions in others, but looks like we did better in the 60's and 80's.

It would be interesting to see more representative ones. @King Binny

Here's it done by the top scorer in the league(goals per game):
1888-1900 0.891274738
1900's 0.732662539
1910's 0.791562239
1920's 0.90952381
1930's 0.896825397
1940's 0.714285714
1950's 0.75
1960's 0.764285714
1970's 0.60952381
1980's 0.645827068
1990's 0.662280702
2000's 0.665789474
2010's 0.703947368


It looks like it's more difficult to score more goals nowadays in England that it was pre the 70's.

 

[Judge Jules]

RedStar: as well as leaving out the criteria which don't suit your argument, you're trying to differentiate between the rest by saying that some are more important than others. I don't agree with that approach when it comes to deciding who was the greatest. For my money that title belongs to the player who can do the greatest range of things to the highest standard. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[SummerOnions]

Kanye said it's Beyonce