The incredible Xabi Alonso thread 2009.

[rage]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

rafa's behaviour over chasing barry and trying to sell alonso to teams no one in their right mind would entertain signing for in some backwater in turkey was shocking.

if alonso wants to leave there will be some satisfaction from his perspective to stick two fingers up at rafa and say i'm leaving on my terms not yours.

and if he leaves so be it, i hope rafa learns from the experience and doesn't repeat it with another key player, oh and i hope that we don't go backwards by signing gareth barry as alonso's replacement.

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33578.msg875903#msg875903 date=1243368417]
Get off your high horse, keni. Some of the terminology used about Xabi in this debate may have been a bit extreme, but Xabi clearly fell short of his first season standards during the period in question. That was a situation Rafa was right to address, even if one can question aspects of how he went about it.
[/quote]

No, I won't actually.

There has been a huge amount of bandwagon jumping when it comes to Xabi's form over the past two years and it's even more galling when you see the same people going on about how players who are the very definition of average are brilliant and ace.

When players underperform, the manager should look at the situation, but trying to justify blatantly hawking a player all round Europe whilst chasing an inferior replacement as anywhere near acceptable is fucking ridiculous and I won't apologize for saying so.

 

[Oncy]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg875965#msg875965 date=1243371024]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33578.msg875903#msg875903 date=1243368417]
Get off your high horse, keni. Some of the terminology used about Xabi in this debate may have been a bit extreme, but Xabi clearly fell short of his first season standards during the period in question. That was a situation Rafa was right to address, even if one can question aspects of how he went about it.
[/quote]

No, I won't actually.

There has been a huge amount of bandwagon jumping when it comes to Xabi's form over the past two years and it's even more galling when you see the same people going on about how players who are the very definition of average are brilliant and ace.

When players underperform, the manager should look at the situation, but trying to justify blatantly hawking a player all round Europe whilst chasing an inferior replacement as anywhere near acceptable is fucking ridiculous and I won't apologize for saying so.
[/quote]Who are you talking about?

 

[spider-Neil]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg875965#msg875965 date=1243371024]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33578.msg875903#msg875903 date=1243368417]
Get off your high horse, keni. Some of the terminology used about Xabi in this debate may have been a bit extreme, but Xabi clearly fell short of his first season standards during the period in question. That was a situation Rafa was right to address, even if one can question aspects of how he went about it.
[/quote]

No, I won't actually.

There has been a huge amount of bandwagon jumping when it comes to Xabi's form over the past two years and it's even more galling when you see the same people going on about how players who are the very definition of average are brilliant and ace.

When players underperform, the manager should look at the situation, but trying to justify blatantly hawking a player all round Europe whilst chasing an inferior replacement as anywhere near acceptable is fucking ridiculous and I won't apologize for saying so.
[/quote]

truth is LOADS of people were pointing out that xabi's form had dipped and THEN we were linked with barry it was then people were saying they could at least 'understand' rafa looking to move him. that wouldn't hindsight or bandwagon jumping they just called it as they saw it. they way rafa pursued barry though left a bad taste in the mouth especially when it all spectaculary backfired.

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33578.msg876021#msg876021 date=1243374264]Who are you talking about?
[/quote]

The people on the other side on the fence, although reading back the "average player is brilliant" bit I can see why you pointed it out. It wasn't meant as a dig at you.

 

[Oncy]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg876057#msg876057 date=1243378107]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33578.msg876021#msg876021 date=1243374264]Who are you talking about?
[/quote]

The people on the other side on the fence, although reading back the "average player is brilliant" bit I can see why you pointed it out. It wasn't meant as a dig at you.
[/quote]Cool.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

I just saw Xabi in Tel Aviv's airport and he says he's signing with Maccabi Haifa.

You heard it here first.

 

[Y1]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=33578.msg876117#msg876117 date=1243401568]
I just saw Xabi in Tel Aviv's airport and he says he's signing with Maccabi Haifa.

You heard it here first.
[/quote]

ha.

 

[Hansern]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg875853#msg875853 date=1243366600]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33578.msg875769#msg875769 date=1243362041]
There is also a difference between saying he can leave, and actively pursuing interest in a keen attempt to sell him, while loudly and publicy chasing his obvious replacement

And failing

Rafa made so many fuck-ups last summer it is almost funny

I would not blame Alonso *one little bit* if he wanted to leave and try out what will be an 'interesting project' at Madrid, who will probably win La Liga next year
[/quote]

Exactly.

Plus this whole "Xabi was shit for two seasons" and "Rafa was right to address a weakness" shit is embarrassing. I can't really be bothered to argue the point anymore (glad that others like Rosco can though), but I still find it to be a hideous argument.
[/quote]

Why is it embarresing to say he was shite? Thats my personal opinion. If someone had stumped up the cash, I would gladly accepted after last season. He was clearly underperforming for 2 seasons. He managed a grand total of 2 assists in 51 matches in the league. Some aren't interested in stats, but that isn't excalty ace.

This season though, he's proved us all wrong. I've no problem in eating humble pie, cause he deserves it. He's been excellent.
I really hope he stays, cause he's fought his way back into being a key figure in the starting line up.

 

[Buddha]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg875965#msg875965 date=1243371024]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33578.msg875903#msg875903 date=1243368417]
Get off your high horse, keni. Some of the terminology used about Xabi in this debate may have been a bit extreme, but Xabi clearly fell short of his first season standards during the period in question. That was a situation Rafa was right to address, even if one can question aspects of how he went about it.
[/quote]

No, I won't actually.

There has been a huge amount of bandwagon jumping when it comes to Xabi's form over the past two years and it's even more galling when you see the same people going on about how players who are the very definition of average are brilliant and ace.

When players underperform, the manager should look at the situation, but trying to justify blatantly hawking a player all round Europe whilst chasing an inferior replacement as anywhere near acceptable is fucking ridiculous and I won't apologize for saying so.

[/quote]
I don't think anyone who is of the opinion that Rafa was justified in considering replacing Xabi last summer is also suggesting he handled the situation well. He made a huge error of judgement in seeming to make the assumption that the Barry deal would be done quickly and at a price well below 20m..

On the other hand, had Xabi been playing to anywhere close to the level he has this season Rafa would not have had to hawk him around Europe with a price tag of 15m odd. Bar half-hearted interest from Arsenal and Juventus, there were hardly a queue of big clubs breaking their arse to get his signature. Fast forward to this summer (in a more difficult economic climate) and his significantly better form over the season already has Real making an early move at a reported 23m.

Rafa handled the whole Barry/Alonso drama badly last summer.
Xabi couldn't complain his place was under threat given his lack of recent form at the time. Had that been untrue, he'd have likely been snapped up at a bargain 15m a year ago.

We all want him to stay, but there's no use in sugar-coating his past poor form - no player is immune to it. He's been fantastic this year thus setting the bar very high for himself for next season. Let's hope he's here to build upon it.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg875965#msg875965 date=1243371024]
There has been a huge amount of bandwagon jumping when it comes to Xabi's form over the past two years
[/quote]

Forget the whole episode with Barry and Rafa's mismanagement (on this front) last summer.

Are you saying Xabi's form during those two years was anything over than average to below average? He was a fantastic asset to this squad in his 1st and 4th seasons, but those two in between saw very average performances which limited his ability to help us dominate/win games. Rafa's behavior (not plan - he's allowed to sell players he doesn't feel can perform) this past summer was wrong - but that doesn't negate the fact that Xabi's form over the past two years was well below the standard you want from a player starting 40-45 games a season.

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=33578.msg876137#msg876137 date=1243405276]
Why is it embarresing to say he was shite? Thats my personal opinion. If someone had stumped up the cash, I would gladly accepted after last season. He was clearly underperforming for 2 seasons. He managed a grand total of 2 assists in 51 matches in the league. Some aren't interested in stats, but that isn't excalty ace.

This season though, he's proved us all wrong. I've no problem in eating humble pie, cause he deserves it. He's been excellent.
I really hope he stays, cause he's fought his way back into being a key figure in the starting line up.
[/quote]

Because he wasn't shite, that's why.

As for the stats argument, is the difference between shite and excellent 3 assists?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg876150#msg876150 date=1243407058]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=33578.msg876137#msg876137 date=1243405276]
Why is it embarresing to say he was shite? Thats my personal opinion. If someone had stumped up the cash, I would gladly accepted after last season. He was clearly underperforming for 2 seasons. He managed a grand total of 2 assists in 51 matches in the league. Some aren't interested in stats, but that isn't excalty ace.

This season though, he's proved us all wrong. I've no problem in eating humble pie, cause he deserves it. He's been excellent.
I really hope he stays, cause he's fought his way back into being a key figure in the starting line up.
[/quote]

Because he wasn't shite, that's why. [/quote]

Ok - please compare his 1st/4th seasons to his 2nd/3rd seasons?

Was there a difference in the quality we saw from him on the pitch?

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=33578.msg876144#msg876144 date=1243405876]
Are you saying Xabi's form during those two years was anything over than average to below average?
[/quote]

As a whole, he underperformed, particularly when you consider the high standards he set in his first season, however he was not "shit" for two seasons straight as everyone said. He had some very good games for us, some decent spells and then some not so decent spells. He was inconsistent.

Everyone is going on about how Kuyt has had a great season this year, but he had a run of 10-15 games without scoring and generally playing quite poorly. Should I just say he was shit for a year?

Does that make sense?

 

[Hansern]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=33578.msg876151#msg876151 date=1243407173]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg876150#msg876150 date=1243407058]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=33578.msg876137#msg876137 date=1243405276]
Why is it embarresing to say he was shite? Thats my personal opinion. If someone had stumped up the cash, I would gladly accepted after last season. He was clearly underperforming for 2 seasons. He managed a grand total of 2 assists in 51 matches in the league. Some aren't interested in stats, but that isn't excalty ace.

This season though, he's proved us all wrong. I've no problem in eating humble pie, cause he deserves it. He's been excellent.
I really hope he stays, cause he's fought his way back into being a key figure in the starting line up.
[/quote]

Because he wasn't shite, that's why. [/quote]

Ok - please compare his 1st/4th seasons to his 2nd/3rd seasons?

Was there a difference in the quality we saw from him on the pitch?
[/quote]

Alonso 1st and 4th season: 13 assists...

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=33578.msg876151#msg876151 date=1243407173]
Ok - please compare his 1st/4th seasons to his 2nd/3rd seasons?

Was there a difference in the quality we saw from him on the pitch?
[/quote]

In his 1st season he wowed us with his passing range. In his 4th season he's been consistently dominating. In his 2nd and 3rd he was inconsistent.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg876152#msg876152 date=1243407243]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=33578.msg876144#msg876144 date=1243405876]
Are you saying Xabi's form during those two years was anything over than average to below average?
[/quote]

As a whole, he underperformed, particularly when you consider the high standards he set in his first season, however he was not "shit" for two seasons straight as everyone said. He had some very good games for us, some decent spells and then some not so decent spells. He was inconsistent.

Everyone is going on about how Kuyt has had a great season this year, but he had a run of 10-15 games without scoring and generally playing quite poorly. Should I just say he was shit for a year?

Does that make sense?
[/quote]

I don't think I said Alonso was shit - If I did, the terminology was poor. However, bar the few good games (which were there) and some decent spells - he, as you say, underperformed. Hence, many of us weren't overly concerned that Rafa was shopping him (the manner he did it was terrible).

Kuyt was playing at a very good level for most of the season, bar that 2 month stretch which you mention. If we had Xabi of 1st/4th season for most of those two seasons, bar a 2 month stretch, you wouldn't have seen nearly as many complaints (and he probably wouldn't have been on Rafa's 'transfer list')

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg876159#msg876159 date=1243407578]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=33578.msg876151#msg876151 date=1243407173]
Ok - please compare his 1st/4th seasons to his 2nd/3rd seasons?

Was there a difference in the quality we saw from him on the pitch?
[/quote]

In his 1st season he wowed us with his passing range. In his 4th season he's been consistently dominating. In his 2nd and 3rd he was inconsistent.
[/quote]

Ok - so in essence, we agree. We just see the 'gulf' between 1st/4th and 2nd/3rd differently.

I still don't think any of us, not even Anita, expected such a dominating season from Xabi this year ... I just hope he's doing it again next year .. with us.

 

[Hansern]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

Well, it's actually 1 assist pr season 2 and 3. And 5 the 4th season, so there's quite a difference. But stats aside, he's general play and form have been much better this season. Xabi has also stopped losing possesion in his own half, which he did for God knows how many times in the past seasons. He's performances have just been of much higher quality for almost the entire season.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

Hansern you simply can't measure a persons contribution to a team in assists.

It's just dumb.

 

[Y1]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

Yep, we cannot measure success by goals and assists alone. Take for example Makele. He did nothing in goals or assist yet without him, Real stopped winning the La Liga after he left and Chelsea is nowhere as formidable since he left.

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=33578.msg876162#msg876162 date=1243407742]
I don't think I said Alonso was shit - If I did, the terminology was poor. However, bar the few good games (which were there) and some decent spells - he, as you say, underperformed. Hence, many of us weren't overly concerned that Rafa was shopping him (the manner he did it was terrible).

Kuyt was playing at a very good level for most of the season, bar that 2 month stretch which you mention. If we had Xabi of 1st/4th season for most of those two seasons, bar a 2 month stretch, you wouldn't have seen nearly as many complaints (and he probably wouldn't have been on Rafa's 'transfer list')
[/quote]

I don't know what you were saying, but many people did just go for "shit" including Hansern on this page. Many people started going on tangents about he just wasn't able to play in this league - I think you were one of them in this case - which is patently a load of bollocks.

The bottom line is that he was nowhere near as bad as many have made out and in Xabi we have a wonderfully gifted player that has proven he can perform in this league. That is a player you don't sell. That is a player you put in the spine of the team, which you build around. If he is underperforming, you sort it out, you don't sell him.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=33578.msg876178#msg876178 date=1243410250]
Take for example Makele. He did nothing in goals or assist yet without him, Real stopped winning the La Liga after he left and Chelsea is nowhere as formidable since he left.
[/quote]

Not a good example - they play differnet positions and have different roles.

Many people started going on tangent about he just wasn't able to play in this league - I think you were one of them in this case - which is patently a load of bollocks.

The bottom line is that he was nowhere near as bad as many have made out and in Xabi we have a wonderfully gifted player that has proven he can perform in this league. That is a player you don't sell. That is a player you put in the spine of the team, which you build around. If he is underperforming, you sort it out, you don't sell him.

I wasn't sure he could perform ... CONSISTENTLY ... in this league. Heck, you yourself have just said that for 2 years, he was inconsistent and he underperformed. So it left me with doubts.

So he wasn't 'nowhere near as bad as many have made out to be' - but he was, and I quote, 'inconsistent' and 'underperforming'. That you were convinced after 3 seasons he was 'class' (considering the drop off in years 2 & 3) makes you a better judge of Alonso than I was.

'You sort it out' ... Well, Rafa did it by being a prat.

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

Inconsistent and underperformed, eh?

Well, I think Gerrard has underperformed in a few games this season and I can also say that Torres has been inconsistent.

Would you read into my comments that both players are shit? Somehow, I doubt it.

Rafa didn't sort it out by being a prat. He tried his best to sell Alonso and it came very close to doing so. He / We got lucky.

 

[jimmy]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

Excuse me for being pedantic, but I think you may have got it wrong with his seasons - this last season is his 5th with us, and his two "bad/inconsistent" years are his 3rd and 4th, right?
Please go on with the discussion...

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=jimmy link=topic=33578.msg876192#msg876192 date=1243411832]
Excuse me for being pedantic, but I think you may have got it wrong with his seasons - this last season is his 5th with us, and his two "bad/inconsistent" years are his 3rd and 4th, right?
Please go on with the discussion...
[/quote]

Yeah, you're right.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33578.msg876189#msg876189 date=1243411524]
Inconsistent and underperformed, eh?

Well, I think Gerrard has underperformed in a few games this season and I can also say that Torres has been inconsistent.

Would you read into my comments that both players are shit? Somehow, I doubt it.

Rafa didn't sort it out by being a prat. He tried his best to sell Alonso and it came very close to doing so. He / We got lucky.
[/quote]

Again, your examples imo are poor ... Xabi wasn't 'inconsistent' & 'underperforming' for a month or two - it was over the course of 2 years that he wasn't reaching the level we all know he's capable of. When Xabi wins us games like Gerrard and Torres do consistently (even if they have a poor stretch here or there), maybe then the comparison will work.

And lastly, he did it in the wrong way. Rafa shouldn't have made his intentions so clear (ie buy barry at all cost to replace alonso) - that was why he was a 'prat'.

I don't know how Barry would have done here had he replaced Alonso - probably not as well, so yah, I guess we were lucky.

 

[keniget]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

I'm not using them as examples per se - you were picking on my phrasing and it's pointless. I think he was inconsistent and did underperform at times, but that does not equate to him being crap or below par for two years straight. I think he was actually very good at times and did help us win games.

Anyways, we're going round in circles with petty arguments. This is just one of those divisive issues and I don't think any middle ground is likely to be found.

 

[Hansern]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=33578.msg876175#msg876175 date=1243409690]
Hansern you simply can't measure a persons contribution to a team in assists.

It's just dumb.
[/quote]

Ha! I was waiting for your response. I think its dumb not to. I can see your point if its regarding centre backs or holding midfielders and fullbacks for that matter. But for players that have an attacking and creative responsibility its a factor that should be included. You cant judge someone solely on that obvs. But it's a good indicator of how they've contributed.

 

[manwithnoname]

Re: Xabi Alonso will stay at Anfield, says Rafa Benitez

Keni's annoyance is quite clearly partly-directed to many people on this site who routinely abused Alonso, denigrated his talent, and erroneously claimed he had been "shit for two years", which was a gross exaggeration, and an insult to a brilliant professional and a super player.

Nobody is denying he had some up and down periods in his middle two seasons, but some of the stick he took was laughable.