The Greatest Irish Sportsperson Ever!
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[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
A couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
A couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
A couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
A couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[quote author=Stu link=topic=35719.msg941713#msg941713 date=1252673835]
So you want your cake and you want to eat it too?
[/quote]
I am what I am, in terms of my perception of my own identity and in legal terms.
I can qualify to play Rugby for Ireland if I'm good enough, even though I am a British passport holder (and possibly Dr_Mac MBE).
If Willie John (a British passport holder, and the best Irish Rugby Captain ever) had received his MBE whilst still playing for Ireland, would he have been told he'd been dropped?
He wouldn't, because Irish Rugby represents not the Republic of Ireland, but an Ireland encompassing Northern Ireland, a member of the UK, and the Republic. Bigots from the North and South don't particularly like that fact, but they can go and fuck themselves as far as I'm concerned.
So you want your cake and you want to eat it too?
[/quote]
I am what I am, in terms of my perception of my own identity and in legal terms.
I can qualify to play Rugby for Ireland if I'm good enough, even though I am a British passport holder (and possibly Dr_Mac MBE).
If Willie John (a British passport holder, and the best Irish Rugby Captain ever) had received his MBE whilst still playing for Ireland, would he have been told he'd been dropped?
He wouldn't, because Irish Rugby represents not the Republic of Ireland, but an Ireland encompassing Northern Ireland, a member of the UK, and the Republic. Bigots from the North and South don't particularly like that fact, but they can go and fuck themselves as far as I'm concerned.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35719.msg941749#msg941749 date=1252678482]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
A couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. [/quote]
Very true Doc.
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
A couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. [/quote]
Very true Doc.
It WAS the elite standard in the non professional era.
Now the game has hit the standards that it has a 'scratch' team like The Lions are going to struggle to beat any of the tri-nations in the future. Whether it be over one game or in a series.
The importance of the Lions will dwindle over the next decade as they continue to be defeated.
Now the game has hit the standards that it has a 'scratch' team like The Lions are going to struggle to beat any of the tri-nations in the future. Whether it be over one game or in a series.
The importance of the Lions will dwindle over the next decade as they continue to be defeated.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35719.msg941749#msg941749 date=1252678482]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
FA couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[/quote]
I disagree.
Fitzgerald's 'job' was the Irish team, which he led exceedingly well. The Lions was / is a glorified all-star team, and so I don't believe that success or lack thereof in that capacity should be used to determine a player's true legacy.
There are too many variables in play, that players cannot be held accountable to, the way they can in their normal surroundings.
Tiger Woods has been dreadful in a two or three Ryder Cups, whilst Paul McGinley has played a big role in two winning teams. Who's the best at his day job?
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
FA couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[/quote]
I disagree.
Fitzgerald's 'job' was the Irish team, which he led exceedingly well. The Lions was / is a glorified all-star team, and so I don't believe that success or lack thereof in that capacity should be used to determine a player's true legacy.
There are too many variables in play, that players cannot be held accountable to, the way they can in their normal surroundings.
Tiger Woods has been dreadful in a two or three Ryder Cups, whilst Paul McGinley has played a big role in two winning teams. Who's the best at his day job?
[quote author=Stu link=topic=35719.msg941776#msg941776 date=1252680823]
It WAS the elite standard in the non professional era.
Now the game has hit the standards that it has a 'scratch' team like The Lions are going to struggle to beat any of the tri-nations in the future. Whether it be over one game or in a series.
The importance of the Lions will dwindle over the next decade as they continue to be defeated.
[/quote]
The standard of the rugby played on the recent tour was of the highest quality. Personally i haven't seen rugby of that intensity for many a year.
The players themselves (Brit's, Irish, Aussies, Kiwi's or SA's) all rank the Lions games as all but the pinnacle of their careers. As for the fans? Well they are the best supported rugby team in the world so i highly doubt that the importance of the Lions tours will dwindle.
It WAS the elite standard in the non professional era.
Now the game has hit the standards that it has a 'scratch' team like The Lions are going to struggle to beat any of the tri-nations in the future. Whether it be over one game or in a series.
The importance of the Lions will dwindle over the next decade as they continue to be defeated.
[/quote]
The standard of the rugby played on the recent tour was of the highest quality. Personally i haven't seen rugby of that intensity for many a year.
The players themselves (Brit's, Irish, Aussies, Kiwi's or SA's) all rank the Lions games as all but the pinnacle of their careers. As for the fans? Well they are the best supported rugby team in the world so i highly doubt that the importance of the Lions tours will dwindle.
Yeah, but they lost. No one continues to follow a losing team.
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941784#msg941784 date=1252681077]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35719.msg941749#msg941749 date=1252678482]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
FA couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[/quote]
I disagree.
Fitzgerald's 'job' was the Irish team, which he led exceedingly well. The Lions was / is a glorified all-star team, and so I don't believe that success or lack thereof in that capacity should be used to determine a player's true legacy.
There are too many variables in play, that players cannot be held accountable to, the way they can in their normal surroundings.
Tiger Woods has been dreadful in a two or three Ryder Cups, whilst Paul McGinley has played a big role in two winning teams. Who's the best at his day job?
[/quote]
You're not a rugby fan are you Whaddapie?
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35719.msg941749#msg941749 date=1252678482]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
FA couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[/quote]
I disagree.
Fitzgerald's 'job' was the Irish team, which he led exceedingly well. The Lions was / is a glorified all-star team, and so I don't believe that success or lack thereof in that capacity should be used to determine a player's true legacy.
There are too many variables in play, that players cannot be held accountable to, the way they can in their normal surroundings.
Tiger Woods has been dreadful in a two or three Ryder Cups, whilst Paul McGinley has played a big role in two winning teams. Who's the best at his day job?
[/quote]
You're not a rugby fan are you Whaddapie?
I can only speak from the Irish point of view and the answer is that we haven't always been very well supported.
Sure we have always had a core of rugby fans, but there is no fucking way the IRFU could have sold 80/85 thousand tickets for a rugby match back when we were shit. Now we are not shit we can fill Croker.
O'Driscoll interview from earlier this year.
Sure we have always had a core of rugby fans, but there is no fucking way the IRFU could have sold 80/85 thousand tickets for a rugby match back when we were shit. Now we are not shit we can fill Croker.
O'Driscoll interview from earlier this year.
The full interview if anyone is interested.....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sp...49895.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sp...49895.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2
Excellent point Livvy. Since we have last won the league we have won trophies though.
A couple of FA cups, a couple of League Cups and we have done well in Europe.
The league is not the only thing we compete for.
A couple of FA cups, a couple of League Cups and we have done well in Europe.
The league is not the only thing we compete for.
Yeah, what about them?
That WAS the question Livvy.
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=35719.msg941806#msg941806 date=1252683388]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941784#msg941784 date=1252681077]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35719.msg941749#msg941749 date=1252678482]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
FA couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[/quote]
I disagree.
Fitzgerald's 'job' was the Irish team, which he led exceedingly well. The Lions was / is a glorified all-star team, and so I don't believe that success or lack thereof in that capacity should be used to determine a player's true legacy.
There are too many variables in play, that players cannot be held accountable to, the way they can in their normal surroundings.
Tiger Woods has been dreadful in a two or three Ryder Cups, whilst Paul McGinley has played a big role in two winning teams. Who's the best at his day job?
[/quote]
You're not a rugby fan are you Whaddapie?
[/quote]
Not like you and Ross and Dr. Mac are , no.
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941784#msg941784 date=1252681077]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35719.msg941749#msg941749 date=1252678482]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=35719.msg941729#msg941729 date=1252676588]
[quote author=bryndaloo link=topic=35719.msg941707#msg941707 date=1252672781]
Just to provide an outsiders view on the McBride v Fitzgerald matter (although it has been pretty much agreed amongst the warring factions).
McBride - best ever captain of the British Lions
Fitzgerald - worst ever captain of the British Lions (was lucky to even get in the squad ahead of Wheeler, and certainly wasn't the best hooker on tour - that honour fell to Colin Deans).
[/quote]
FA couple of quick things:
1. Any "warring" going on had NOTHING to do with sports, as usual.
2. Without any animosity, I couldn't give a bollix about the British and Irish Lions... Fitzgerald was a great captain of a great Irish team. Hence, he deserves a mention in this conversation, imo. As you mention above, nobody is saying he's on a par with Willie John.
[/quote]
But whether you give a bollix about it or not, success at the Lions level is the elite standard. It's like Harrington winning majors rather the tour titles. It evidences the attributes of the player, and their status within the game.
[/quote]
I disagree.
Fitzgerald's 'job' was the Irish team, which he led exceedingly well. The Lions was / is a glorified all-star team, and so I don't believe that success or lack thereof in that capacity should be used to determine a player's true legacy.
There are too many variables in play, that players cannot be held accountable to, the way they can in their normal surroundings.
Tiger Woods has been dreadful in a two or three Ryder Cups, whilst Paul McGinley has played a big role in two winning teams. Who's the best at his day job?
[/quote]
You're not a rugby fan are you Whaddapie?
[/quote]
Not like you and Ross and Dr. Mac are , no.
[quote author=Stu link=topic=35719.msg941819#msg941819 date=1252684384]
Yeah, what about them?
[/quote]
Stu you're talking shit.
Many club teams or national sides are very well supported even though they don't win anything.
The Lions are the best supported rugby team around and the interest levels will always remain very high.
If you had the privilege to watch this recent series, you'd not be making comments about how the Lions can't compete anymore.
Yeah, what about them?
[/quote]
Stu you're talking shit.
Many club teams or national sides are very well supported even though they don't win anything.
The Lions are the best supported rugby team around and the interest levels will always remain very high.
If you had the privilege to watch this recent series, you'd not be making comments about how the Lions can't compete anymore.
I seen the Lions series. Yes they did well but they lost. Ultimately, that is all that matters in sport. Winning. O'Driscoll himself admits it is going to get harder and harder to win a test due to the reasons he listed in the interview. I think he is in a better position to comment on this than you, Rafa4PM.
With regard to support, my point is simple.
I'll take Man United as an example. Since their period of domination has started look at what has happened to Old Trafford. Look at the expansion and development that has taken place there. If they didn't go on to win 11 league titles since 1993 would that stadium have a capacity of 76,212 (seated)? Would it fuck.
Look at Blackburn, Boro, Sunderland. They all had, at the height of their success, sell outs for league games. When Blackburn were League champions, Boro were reaching the UEFA cup final and when Sunderland were finishing 6th, they were all winning teams and they all had packed stadiums to prove it. Now they are not doing so well and you cann see the impact it has had at the turnstiles.
Sure, some people need to be Ebbsfleet fans and what have you, but success will always attract more people.
With regard to support, my point is simple.
I'll take Man United as an example. Since their period of domination has started look at what has happened to Old Trafford. Look at the expansion and development that has taken place there. If they didn't go on to win 11 league titles since 1993 would that stadium have a capacity of 76,212 (seated)? Would it fuck.
Look at Blackburn, Boro, Sunderland. They all had, at the height of their success, sell outs for league games. When Blackburn were League champions, Boro were reaching the UEFA cup final and when Sunderland were finishing 6th, they were all winning teams and they all had packed stadiums to prove it. Now they are not doing so well and you cann see the impact it has had at the turnstiles.
Sure, some people need to be Ebbsfleet fans and what have you, but success will always attract more people.
Well this recent series proves BOD wrong. They have just gone up against the best test side in the world (the greatest SA team ever), and produced some of the best rugby to have been played in decades. A much higher standard of rugby than the 2 previous tours.
The Lions image had been enhanced after this tour to SA.
Of course some teams support will dwindle when they hit hard times, but there are many teams who will always attract large followings however they get on. The Lions are one of these sides.
The Lions image had been enhanced after this tour to SA.
Of course some teams support will dwindle when they hit hard times, but there are many teams who will always attract large followings however they get on. The Lions are one of these sides.
The manner in which SA have destroyed all around them in the Tri-Nations only emphasises how good the Lions were. NZ and the Aussies have been like schoolboys by comparison.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35719.msg941863#msg941863 date=1252687749]
The manner in which SA have destroyed all around them in the Tri-Nations only emphasises how good the Lions were. NZ and the Aussies have been like schoolboys by comparison.
[/quote]
I've watched the Tri Nations and the rugby has been shite in comparison. The Lions would have smashed the Aussies and probably this All Black team too.
What some people forget is that in the last 2 tours the Lions have played 2 of the best teams to of graced international rugby. We got humped in one of them and produced a classic series in the other.
The manner in which SA have destroyed all around them in the Tri-Nations only emphasises how good the Lions were. NZ and the Aussies have been like schoolboys by comparison.
[/quote]
I've watched the Tri Nations and the rugby has been shite in comparison. The Lions would have smashed the Aussies and probably this All Black team too.
What some people forget is that in the last 2 tours the Lions have played 2 of the best teams to of graced international rugby. We got humped in one of them and produced a classic series in the other.
George Best, clearly.
Last years rugby was fucking amazing from an Irish point of view all year long. Regardless of the result the Lions tour was an incredible end to it all.
And after the season I'd actually vote for O'Driscoll as the best player to have represented Ireland, as well as the best Irish rugby player ever.
And after the season I'd actually vote for O'Driscoll as the best player to have represented Ireland, as well as the best Irish rugby player ever.
