How can a guy with more goals and assists this season than both of them be "riding their coattails" exactly? More assists than the pair combined 🤣
The Donkey
- Thread starter rurikbird
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I'm talking about right now. You'd rather have Nunez on the pitch over Jota?
I'd have Nunez over Jota period. I'm not one who changes his mind every other week based on how 2 players performed, that would be silly.
All you have to do is look back to the games over the season Nunez didn't start in, we were down bad and looking like shite in almost all. I don't forget.
The 1 in 3 goals thing we could remove, only down to the fact kuyt played in a worse team, and i'd imagine darwins stas would drop a bit as well. . My point is, kuyt wasn't particularly clinical, but worked his bollocks off and usually helped the side because of that. Just a shame there was more shite than good players playing with him.
I don't think it's fair to look at darwins contributions in the form of goals (weirdly). The chances he misses you could argue only jota might take up that position, but then for those chances it seems to be nunez creating the space for jota to run in to.
Darwin may not be the number 9 everyone was hoping for, but he's the number 9 this system needs; similar to bobby was needed for that no 9 to work.
Jota is in great form, but he does have a history of going missing in games. Whether thats down to his own efforts, or he's just been marked out the game. Same with nunez; he has quieter games and thats usually when he's with mo and diaz.
For me until the end of time, it's nunez & jota, and couldn't give a shite who the 3rd is.
For me until the end of time, it's nunez & jota, and couldn't give a shite who the 3rd is.
Can you? Why, because it suits your argument? I can say the other 19 teams in the league were also far weaker then than they are now. Pepe Finnan Hyyps Riise Alonso Masch Gerrard Torres, these weren't exactly bad players either....in fact, some of the best around during their time much like the Ali's Virgil's Mo's of this world.
Kuyt and Nunez have a few things in common sure but that's where it ends. You look at a forward and judge him on what you would judge all forwards on.....goals, finishing, assists, chances created, movement and hold/link up play and just general play with how involved they are. Apart from his finishing, Nunez is unplayable. He can play the LW position far more effectively than Kuyt ever could when he played on the right, simply because he had more in his locker.
ok, 2 things 1) i like nunez a lot, so this isn't meant as a dig at him. I liked kuyt. My point was they're both workhorses who get unfair criticisms when they both are exactly what was needed for a squad system.
2) FUCK. RIGHT. OFF. The AUDACITY to mention fucking finnan riise and hyypia and say they're as good as our modern squad. Get absolutely fucked right off.
Kuyt (an average player), played with average players, so his figures would be less. Thats not audacious to say. Thats actually a sensible thing to say.
I'd say a majority of the teams now are much weaker than they were then.
"Some of the best around". Yeah, sure. I'm sure kuyt loved playing with fucking pennant rather than fucking jota.
Lol. I compared the likes of Finnan Riise Hyyps to players OF THEIR TIME, NOT with the players we have now. Stop twisting words Fabio, you’re a smart lad. No idea why you’re bringing Pennant into it, Kuyt played with Torres Gerrard Benayoun for like 90% of his time here.
And no teams like Stoke Derby West Brom Hull Reading are not stronger than the Fulhams Brightons Brentfords and Wolves of today, not a fucking chance.
And no teams like Stoke Derby West Brom Hull Reading are not stronger than the Fulhams Brightons Brentfords and Wolves of today, not a fucking chance.
Now thats disingenuous. Not fancy picking Luton, burnley, sheffield, forest?
Also...fucking benayoun? That a mark of quality? he also played a lot with babel. Neither of which are fit to be near our current squad
Tbf Pennant and current form Diaz is a toss up.
I'm missing the joke right?
Picked mid table from both eras but if you want to only pick the relegation sides, then Luton Burnley Sheffield Forest of today are also stronger than Birmingham, Bolton, Wigan and Blackpool. Whichever way you wanna roll with it, we can. The teams of today are harder to play against.
Yes Benayoun, AND Gerrard AND Torres AND Alonso AND Masch AND Pepe AND Riise AND Sami. I promise you that team was far stronger than most teams BACK THEN not named Utd or Chelsea. Not too sure what you’re trying to argue around that.
We're calling diaz shite
Darwin also started against Brigton, Luton & Uts in the League, in games we dropped points.
I presume you’re primarily referring to the lost a Europa League games and early in the season when the entire, Darwin included, looked a bit like a WIP.
Fact is, Darwin’s erratic finishing means he needs a Salah or a Jota playing, because someone needs to actually put the ball in the back of the net.
You mean like Arsenal? Oh no wait Nunez has actually scored as many as their top scorer (Saka 7) and 2 more than the next on their list. Fact is we score from all over so aren't as reliant on just one main scorer as some teams are.
Although I do find it a bit strange that just because Jota is on a hot streak at the moment you use him as an example, short memory perhaps because last season Nunez outscored him 15 goals to 7 and at ca. 153 mins to 194 mins per goal. Didn't Jota go ca. 16 games without scoring last season with everyone here getting on his case?
To further the comparisons : over all competitions last season Mo scored 30 goals but in almost twice as many minutes as Nunez and that inc. 4 penalties, so ca. 143 mins per goal or 194 mins per goal without penalties. Over 90 mins Mo was scoring 0.63 goals (0.55 w/o pens) vs Nunez's 0.56 goals.
This season Mo is 113 mins per goal (inc. pens) or 160 mins per goal w/o pens or to put it another way 0.79 goals per 90 mins inc pens or 0.55 without (notice how that almost mirrors both his and Nunez's last season's goals per 90 mins), Nunez is 0.45.
BTW over his career Mo has an 83% penalty success rate but that has recently dropped to an unacceptable 66% (scored 4 missed 2 in the PL this season).
You really seem to have upped your game in taking pot shots at Nunez and use Mo. as an example of someone he needs to actually score the goals - yet they are almost identical in terms of goals per 90 mins played (w/o pens). All that said we all know Nunez needs to improve his goals per shot stat yet at the same time he's still a major contributor as to why we are so successful this season - even without Mo - and without him it's likely we'd be fighting for Top 4 not the title.
Jesus Froggy - you’re scraping it a bit there banging on about Jota last season when he was fucked or coming back from being fucked for most of it until he got a good run together at the end.
Also - you use Arsenal as an example - a team that literally every points out is missing a goal scorer and are unlikely to win anything until they sort that out.
No-ones “getting on his case”, Nunez is playing well, but the fact remains, he’s erratic at finishing - you can see that by the fact he has loads of chances and doesn’t score loads of goals.
The problem is, over time, if his finishing doesn’t improve, then we will have a problem - If Mo moves on or Jota gets inevitably injured - where do the goals come from?
I used Jota as an example because he’s our most lethal finisher - the more we play him, while keeping himt and in form, the more goals we’ll get.
7 goals in the league for Nunez - that puts him equal 16th in the league for goals along with Saka, Gordon, Bailey, Mbeuno, Jackson,
7 assists puts him equal 7th with Gordon, Alvarez, Foden & Madidison
Combined, he’s behind Salah, Haaland, Watkins, Son, Alvarez, and tied with Gordon & Solanke. He’s 1 ahead of Bowen, Hwang, Richarlison, Isak, Palmer & Bailey.
It’s good - but it’s not like it’s something that a dozen+ other players are doing.
That green bar against Jesus is ominous for today
Firstly - people need to stop using absolute totals that ignore per 90 mins stats. Just using 'games' without minutes is pointless since a 5 mins sub appearance counts the same as a 100 mins full game.
Jota - which is why I prefer to always use minutes played rather than games. After he got injured (having been involved in 8 early games) he was brought on as a sub for 3 matches to get him match fit, and was then involved from Feb thru to the season's end. You can't rule the season out for one injury (even if extensive) mid-season, he played more than enough games (I think it was 26 inc sub appearances) to make his stats as valid as anyone elses.
Nunez - why list a) goalscorers (where you've just listed the top scorers) and b) assist makers (again just the top assist makers, regardless of how many goals they've scored) effectively saying he doesn't fit into either. How about where does he stand as both a goalscorer+assists?
So here I've given (across the Top 5) the 'goal contributions' stat (goals, assists, direct involvement), GCA per 90 mins (higher number is better) with a minimum of 15 x 90 mins across all competitions :
Jota 1.15
Nunez 0.86
Doku 0.86 (12.6 games)
Saka 0.83
Tielemans 0.78 (equivalent of 14.5 games but near enough)
Watkins 0.75
Foden 0.74
Rodri 0.67
Salah 0.66
NKetiah 0.65 (14.4 games)
Jesus 0.64
Alvarez 0.61
Martinelli 0.60
McGinn 0.57
MacAllister 0.56
Son 0.53
Haaland 0.42
Here's the Goals + Assists per 90 mins (across the Top 5) :
Salah 1.19
Haaland 1.15
Jota 1.07
Nunez 1.00
Bailey 0.97
Richarlison 0.88
Son 0.88
Watkins 0.85
Saka 0.83
Jesus 0.81
Alvarez 0.81
Doku 0.79 (12.6 games)
Foden 0.76
Gakpo 0.65
NKetiah 0.62 (14.4 games)
Martinelli 0.46
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I haven’t listed “the best from each”, that’s across the Premier League in ascending order - I’m not sure who you want me to cut out to make Nunez look better?
Then I gave you a list of which players goals + assists were better, the same and 1 less.
I’m sorry if I like to use “absolute stats” like how many goals are actually scored is inconvenient - is that because they’re meaningful - otherwise if you use stats in the way you want, we’ll quickly conclude that Divock Origi was our best striker ever.
Anyway - are you sure about those stats your posting - there’s something that doesn’t look right. How can you have a GCA lower than a GA - that doesn’t make sense - surely goals + assists + direct involvement would be higher than goals + assists - what exactly is this “direct involvement” that you speak of.
Why’s it across the top 5 only? Are you cherry picking data?
Also, why are you using all competitions - surely that’s likely to skew data because clubs play teams at variable quality levels in cups - the league would seem the best for direct comparison.
Look - we’re operating a narrow direct attacking system, of which Darwin is at the apex - he’d want to involved in goal activity because the system is designed in part to get the best out of him. - and it is to an extent as shown by his numbers and also highlights were he’s not quite there yet - in that his goal scoring numbers for a central striker are just ok.
It's not a case of making someone look better - even a donkey knows why using 'per 90 mins played' is better than using stats that include a 5 mins sub appearance equating to a full game (when 'games' are used). And it's why you use a minimum of X games (I used 15 x 90 mins) as obviously stats can be skewed by using a smaller sample size (De Bruyne has 3.13 GCA but only over 2.5 games) !
Yes I'm sure about the stats - you can check them yourself on Fbref. Just about the best stat database out there. I did query that myself but I guess it comes down to how they arrive at that GCA figure - though obviously it's the same across the board.
No I'm not cherry picking using only the Top 5 - it's because a) you have to go through them club by club and b) they are the most relevant. You're welcome to go there and pull up each club's player stats one by one if you wish.
Why would you not use all competitions? As for skewing well it probably makes all players look better, Villa's in the Conference or City's against minnows they hammer. Using only the PL I think Nunez's figures look even better because not many come close to his goals + assists (Mo. obviously), he's surely in the Top 10 (off you pop to check that out, I've done my bit).
I also disagree with your summation : we don't have a narrow attacking system and Nunez isn't necessarily at the apex, we have a very fluid front line and he's as often wide left, or even sometimes right, as he is through the centre. I also disagree with your statement that he's a central striker (at least not in the traditional sense that Haaland is) - I don't see him that way at all. I don't disagree that he could and should be scoring more goals though.
You mean like Mo has been absent for a few games and we're hitting 4 per game without him?
Wrong thread.
Is there a point to be made about the fact that Nunez plays in a more central role and therefor gets more chances to score than Jota?
I know that our attack is fluid, but even if you look at heat maps from games, if Nunez starts as our CF, the map shows that he's positioned more in the center and I'd argue that he therefor is more often than not the focal point of our attacks.
I know that our attack is fluid, but even if you look at heat maps from games, if Nunez starts as our CF, the map shows that he's positioned more in the center and I'd argue that he therefor is more often than not the focal point of our attacks.
Surely you've been watching our games and seeing the inverted wingers scoring like crazy over the last 8 years. Would Mo have scored more if he was playing in the middle, or did his positioning on the inside right help him get a bit of space and angles?
Jota's started in the middle many times over the years and sometimes he's been good, other times not so good. He gets plenty of chances playing on the left and has a free-ish role which is great for him. And none of our players would get some of the chances Nunez gets when getting in behind the defence due to his blistering speed.
Nunez has frustrated with his finishing, but he's been so good for the team. I think if you asked defenders who they'd rather play against between Jota and Nunez, they'll likely say Jota. They'd regret it, mind.
Anyway, all of the ex-pros in the media and our management team seem to have a different opinion to a few on this site.
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