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The Blueprint II.

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[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1225901#msg1225901 date=1291035469]
No just dim if you think a new manager is the answer to our problems. Roy will be gone soon enough but so long as we have this squad of players we will struggle.
[/quote]

THE most important factor with how a team performs is first and foremost the manager, that's not being dim that common fucking sense.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1225901#msg1225901 date=1291035469]
No just dim if you think a new manager is the answer to our problems. Roy will be gone soon enough but so long as we have this squad of players we will struggle.
[/quote]

you have the audicity to talk about being 'dim' when in the summer I had to listen to the rubbish you were spouting about roy when anyone with sense could see he would struggle.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42975.msg1225918#msg1225918 date=1291036536]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1225901#msg1225901 date=1291035469]
No just dim if you think a new manager is the answer to our problems. Roy will be gone soon enough but so long as we have this squad of players we will struggle.
[/quote]

THE most important factor with how a team performs is first and foremost the manager, that's not being dim that common fucking sense.
[/quote]

No it's not.

The most relevant guide to where a team will finish in the league is their wage bill. From that you can judge a manager, over a period of time.
 
The problem with paying so much attention to contracts and wages is that it assumes that all players will just stay here and take the money. The aim of getting rid of players at the time when their value is at its highest also assumes that replacements will be easily found and integrated into the side.

Neither are always the case. Its easy to look at a player on huge wages who probably shouldn't be and assuming that we will be stuck with him, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. In the case of Carra I suspect as soon as it was made clear to him that he is no longer part of the first team he would go elsewhere for less money. Some players who are getting on a bit will want to make as much as they can, but others would probably feel it more important to get as much football as they can before they have to retire, especially the ones who still want to stay in contention for their international sides.

On the other issue, circumstances on the field should also dictate whether players should be sold or not, not just stats. Say we decide that the best time to get rid of Torres is 2 years time, well what happens if we have another striker by then who is all set to come in for him but gets seriously injured? Or we have already bought a replacement but he gets homesick and wants to leave? Or other star players also indicate that they will leave if Torres goes?
 
There's so much wrong with Ross' post I do not know where to start.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1225929#msg1225929 date=1291037068]
There's so much wrong with Ross' post I do not know where to start.
[/quote]

Just follow your instincts, you know you want to

5. Agger - Look to offload in the Summer.
Click to expand...
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1225930#msg1225930 date=1291037156]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1225929#msg1225929 date=1291037068]
There's so much wrong with Ross' post I do not know where to start.
[/quote]

Just follow your instincts, you know you want to

5. Agger - Look to offload in the Summer.
Click to expand...
[/quote]
As much as I don't hope we sell him that's nothing compared to statements such as:

Torres: Owen mach 2

Sell Reina in two years time.

Carra: "stuck with him"

Please do elaborate. Do you agree with him?
 
Sell Johnson and Kuyt as well.

It's really one of the most strange posts I've ever seen Ross make to be honest.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1225947#msg1225947 date=1291038364]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1225930#msg1225930 date=1291037156]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1225929#msg1225929 date=1291037068]
There's so much wrong with Ross' post I do not know where to start.
[/quote]

Just follow your instincts, you know you want to

5. Agger - Look to offload in the Summer.
Click to expand...
[/quote]
As much as I don't hope we sell him that's nothing compared to statements such as:

Torres: Owen mach 2

Sell Reina in two years time.

Carra: "stuck with him"

Please do elaborate. Do you agree with him?
[/quote]

No I don't. You can't just base everything on player wages and sell on values.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for the Torres argument. He's a fantastic player of course but given that he is injured a hell of a lot, if a silly offer comes in for him then it shouldn't be instantly dismissed.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1225971#msg1225971 date=1291039644]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1225947#msg1225947 date=1291038364]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1225930#msg1225930 date=1291037156]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1225929#msg1225929 date=1291037068]
There's so much wrong with Ross' post I do not know where to start.
[/quote]

Just follow your instincts, you know you want to

5. Agger - Look to offload in the Summer.
Click to expand...
[/quote]
As much as I don't hope we sell him that's nothing compared to statements such as:

Torres: Owen mach 2

Sell Reina in two years time.

Carra: "stuck with him"

Please do elaborate. Do you agree with him?
[/quote]

No I don't. You can't just base everything on player wages and sell on values.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for the Torres argument. He's a fantastic player of course but given that he is injured a hell of a lot, if a silly offer comes in for him then it shouldn't be instantly dismissed.


[/quote]
Exactly. That was my main issue with his post. Not because he wants us to sell a sadly more or less perma-injured Dane.

I don't have any sympathy for the Torres argument however. You just don't find a better striker than him and there's no guarantees that the one we'd then sign instead wouldn't get injured himself.

It's all about - for me - keeping hold of our best players and then you don't sell Reina, Torres, Carra, Johnson and Kuyt.

It's really, really wrong.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=42975.msg1225813#msg1225813 date=1291025986]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=42975.msg1225808#msg1225808 date=1291025432]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=42975.msg1225701#msg1225701 date=1291004409]
How on earth are we going to get 13M for Joe Cole. He's 29 and an injury risk. Sure, he's got the Engerland tax, but I still think it's optimistic.

I disagree with selling Ngog and Aquilani doesn't want to come back, the rest I agree with in terms of sales.
[/quote]

1 million for Cole also seems a little ambitious considering nobody wanted him over the summer when he was free
[/quote]

Spurs were convinced they would get him.

They only got VDV because Cole chose us over them 🙁
[/quote]

I meant Aurelio, I have no idea why I wrote down Cole. Apologises.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1225927#msg1225927 date=1291037010]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42975.msg1225918#msg1225918 date=1291036536]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1225901#msg1225901 date=1291035469]
No just dim if you think a new manager is the answer to our problems. Roy will be gone soon enough but so long as we have this squad of players we will struggle.
[/quote]

THE most important factor with how a team performs is first and foremost the manager, that's not being dim that common fucking sense.
[/quote]

No it's not.

The most relevant guide to where a team will finish in the league is their wage bill. From that you can judge a manager, over a period of time.


[/quote]

so the barometer of a manager's worth is the wage bill?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42975.msg1225993#msg1225993 date=1291041202]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1225927#msg1225927 date=1291037010]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42975.msg1225918#msg1225918 date=1291036536]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1225901#msg1225901 date=1291035469]
No just dim if you think a new manager is the answer to our problems. Roy will be gone soon enough but so long as we have this squad of players we will struggle.
[/quote]

THE most important factor with how a team performs is first and foremost the manager, that's not being dim that common fucking sense.
[/quote]

No it's not.

The most relevant guide to where a team will finish in the league is their wage bill. From that you can judge a manager, over a period of time.


[/quote]

so the barometer of a manager's worth is the wage bill?
[/quote]

I don't know how you drew that conclusion.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1225977#msg1225977 date=1291040010]

Exactly. That was my main issue with his post. Not because he wants us to sell a sadly more or less perma-injured Dane.

I don't have any sympathy for the Torres argument however. You just don't find a better striker than him and there's no guarantees that the one we'd then sign instead wouldn't get injured himself.

It's all about - for me - keeping hold of our best players and then you don't sell Reina, Torres, Carra, Johnson and Kuyt.

It's really, really wrong.
[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we should be planning to sell Torres, I can just see an argument where, in certain circumstances, it may be worth considering.

The way things stand we have a great striker, but he is our only good striker who generally performs best when he is playing up front on his own.
When you throw in the fact that he is clearly injury prone, its not a situation that looks good is it?

So what do you do? Buy quality back up? Well in the past we couldn't afford that, and how many top strikers would want to come here to play second fiddle to Torres anyway?
Buy another striker to play alongside him? Would appear to be the ideal solution but again there is the money issue isn't there?

If we get an enormous offer then we would be mad not to at least think about it. It could be that it wouldn't be worth taking it when you weigh up the risks, but doesn't do any harm considering it if its the sort of money that could fund a whole summer's worth of transfers.

After this year Torres has 3 seasons left on his contract anyway. If things don't start picking up he won't be signing a new one, so you need to consider how likely it is we will be able to rebuild without getting the money his sale would generate and how crucial he himself has to be to any change in fortunes - but don't take too long considering it because his value will decrease ever year.
 
Oops I think I quiffed Ross's post a bit. I don't agree with a lot of it actually.

I'd be happy to let Reina retire here. We won't find better and I fucking love Pepe.

I think Ross is basing his blueprint on how NESV might view it or perhaps he is removing all sentiment from his decision making.
i.e. " we're stuck with him" in reference to Carragher which I still think is very harsh on Jamie.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42975.msg1225909#msg1225909 date=1291035973]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=42975.msg1225895#msg1225895 date=1291034790]
Ross, while I agree with most of what you said
[/quote]

Even Reina? I think we'd be crazy to get rid, considering how hard we found it to get a decent keeper before. And how hard United did, and Arsenal are...
[/quote]
See above Gerry.
 
Sometimes I believe the football debate takes a less interesting road.

We're talking about wages, re-sell value etc. instead of just looking at what we've got. There are a board of directors and hundreds of billionaires who wants to throw money at us. We'll probably live even though we're only getting say 37% of what we potentially could be getting now when we sell in three years time. Bothered to these arguments. Perhaps he even stays on untill he retires? That's not good is it - no re-sell value or anything? Another player we're then 'stuck on'.

What is this?

Torres for me is a world class striker and one of the best we've ever got actually. No argument about lesser sell-on value in three years time, wage-bills or anything similar will bite on me. I'm in no way hoping that we'll sell not only one of the best players at Liverpool but on his day one of the best strikers in the world. I'm baffled anyone would.

Same argument with regards to the likes of Reina, Carra, Gerrard, Agger, Kuyt and Johnson for me at least.
 
KHL - if we take Torres alone for the moment. What do think we'll get from him over the next three years ? What do you base your thinking on ?
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226007#msg1226007 date=1291042000]


We're talking about wages, re-sell value etc. instead of just looking at what we've got. There are a board of directors and hundreds of billionaires who wants to throw money at us. We'll probably live even though we're only getting say 37% of what we potentially could be getting now when we sell in three years time. Bothered to these arguments. Perhaps he even stays on untill he retires? That's not good is it - no re-sell value or anything? Another player we're then 'stuck on'.


[/quote]

Where are these hundreds of billionaires throwing money at us? I thought we had a moderately wealthy owner who, when the topic of transfers comes up, tends to talk a lot about value for money and being smart with what we spend?

If Torres keeps scoring goals, is happy to stay for years and we can afford to build a quality team around him then that would be the perfect scenario.

However, if he keeps getting injured, we are shit on the field, he clearly wants to leave and we are forced to sell him on at a relative pittance (like we were with Owen) then that is not so good is it? That is where we have to at least consider the potential benefits of selling players who are worth a lot
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226014#msg1226014 date=1291042522]
KHL - if we take Torres alone for the moment. What do think we'll get from him over the next three years ? What do you base your thinking on ?
[/quote]
Goals and lots of them.

I'm basing this on watching him play for us over the past years where he's almsot always scored goals and lots of them.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1226016#msg1226016 date=1291042566]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226007#msg1226007 date=1291042000]


We're talking about wages, re-sell value etc. instead of just looking at what we've got. There are a board of directors and hundreds of billionaires who wants to throw money at us. We'll probably live even though we're only getting say 37% of what we potentially could be getting now when we sell in three years time. Bothered to these arguments. Perhaps he even stays on untill he retires? That's not good is it - no re-sell value or anything? Another player we're then 'stuck on'.


[/quote]

Where are these hundreds of billionaires throwing money at us? I thought we had a moderately wealthy owner who, when the topic of transfers comes up, tends to talk a lot about value for money and being smart with what we spend?

If Torres keeps scoring goals, is happy to stay for years and we can afford to build a quality team around him then that would be the perfect scenario.

However, if he keeps getting injured, we are shit on the field, he clearly wants to leave and we are forced to sell him on at a relative pittance (like we were with Owen) then that is not so good is it? That is where we have to at least consider the potential benefits of selling players who are worth a lot
[/quote]

good post again, but i think KHL's got the blinkers on when it comes to these issues. not worth it.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226019#msg1226019 date=1291042604]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226014#msg1226014 date=1291042522]
KHL - if we take Torres alone for the moment. What do think we'll get from him over the next three years ? What do you base your thinking on ?
[/quote]
Goals and lots of them.

I'm basing this on watching him play for us over the past years where he's almsot always scored goals and lots of them.
[/quote]

How many ?
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1226016#msg1226016 date=1291042566]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226007#msg1226007 date=1291042000]


We're talking about wages, re-sell value etc. instead of just looking at what we've got. There are a board of directors and hundreds of billionaires who wants to throw money at us. We'll probably live even though we're only getting say 37% of what we potentially could be getting now when we sell in three years time. Bothered to these arguments. Perhaps he even stays on untill he retires? That's not good is it - no re-sell value or anything? Another player we're then 'stuck on'.


[/quote]

Where are these hundreds of billionaires throwing money at us? I thought we had a moderately wealthy owner who, when the topic of transfers comes up, tends to talk a lot about value for money and being smart with what we spend?

If Torres keeps scoring goals, is happy to stay for years and we can afford to build a quality team around him then that would be the perfect scenario.

However, if he keeps getting injured, we are shit on the field, he clearly wants to leave and we are forced to sell him on at a relative pittance (like we were with Owen) then that is not so good is it? That is where we have to at least consider the potential benefits of selling players who are worth a lot
[/quote]
My point beeing that we won't suddenly go bankrupt if we're not soon selling Torres anytime soon. We'll live.

Anyways I've made my point clear and I wouldn't sell Torres.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226022#msg1226022 date=1291042728]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226019#msg1226019 date=1291042604]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226014#msg1226014 date=1291042522]
KHL - if we take Torres alone for the moment. What do think we'll get from him over the next three years ? What do you base your thinking on ?
[/quote]
Goals and lots of them.

I'm basing this on watching him play for us over the past years where he's almsot always scored goals and lots of them.
[/quote]

How many ?
[/quote]
Loads.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226024#msg1226024 date=1291042793]

My point beeing that we won't suddenly go bankrupt if we're not soon selling Torres anytime soon. We'll live.

Anyways I've made my point clear and I wouldn't sell Torres.
[/quote]

I've never said anything about having to sell Torres or anyone else to keep the club afloat. I am hoping that those days are behind us.

I am talking about the quickest way to get from where we are - appalling - to where were want to be again - winning things.

I'd love for us to be winning the league with all of the good players we have now plus loads of other good players, but we need to be able to buy those other good players don't we?
Selling our shit players won't raise enough, so if Mr Henry and his friends aren't going to fund it, and we get a huge offer for one of the players we would ideally want to keep then it would be silly not to at least consider it, that is all.
 
This is going well...

I side with KHL on this though.

I don't want to lose any of our top players unless the issue is forced.

Just see what happened to us when we replaced Xabi Alonso. We got massive profit. We reinvested a major part of that back in the same position....but we ended up causing some major fucking damage to our coffers, owners, manager and players.

It would be better if we focussed on plugging the holes with new money than, making new ones that we can hopefully plug with cheaper but more effective material.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42975.msg1226020#msg1226020 date=1291042676]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1226016#msg1226016 date=1291042566]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226007#msg1226007 date=1291042000]


We're talking about wages, re-sell value etc. instead of just looking at what we've got. There are a board of directors and hundreds of billionaires who wants to throw money at us. We'll probably live even though we're only getting say 37% of what we potentially could be getting now when we sell in three years time. Bothered to these arguments. Perhaps he even stays on untill he retires? That's not good is it - no re-sell value or anything? Another player we're then 'stuck on'.


[/quote]

Where are these hundreds of billionaires throwing money at us? I thought we had a moderately wealthy owner who, when the topic of transfers comes up, tends to talk a lot about value for money and being smart with what we spend?

If Torres keeps scoring goals, is happy to stay for years and we can afford to build a quality team around him then that would be the perfect scenario.

However, if he keeps getting injured, we are shit on the field, he clearly wants to leave and we are forced to sell him on at a relative pittance (like we were with Owen) then that is not so good is it? That is where we have to at least consider the potential benefits of selling players who are worth a lot
[/quote]

good post again, but i think KHL's got the blinkers on when it comes to these issues. not worth it.

[/quote]
If you have nothing constructive to add why even bother, unless of course your sole purpose is to ruin my mood and willingness to take part in any discussion on here??
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226027#msg1226027 date=1291042977]
You've got no idea really, have you ?
[/quote]
According to Wiki, 61 goals in 93 matches. I knew it was loads.

Is that sustainable from an economical perspective?
 
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