The Blueprint II.

[the_khl]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1226032#msg1226032 date=1291043227]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226024#msg1226024 date=1291042793]

My point beeing that we won't suddenly go bankrupt if we're not soon selling Torres anytime soon. We'll live.

Anyways I've made my point clear and I wouldn't sell Torres.
[/quote]

I've never said anything about having to sell Torres or anyone else to keep the club afloat. I am hoping that those days are behind us.

I am talking about the quickest way to get from where we are - appalling - to where were want to be again - winning things.

I'd love for us to be winning the league with all of the good players we have now plus loads of other good players, but we need to be able to buy those other good players don't we?
Selling our shit players won't raise enough, so if Mr Henry and his friends aren't going to fund it, and we get a huge offer for one of the players we would ideally want to keep then it would be silly not to at least consider it, that is all.


[/quote]
I don't think we should sell Torres. And I wouldn't 'consider' selling him either. It's very simple really.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226038#msg1226038 date=1291043382]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226027#msg1226027 date=1291042977]
You've got no idea really, have you ?
[/quote]
According to Wiki, 61 goals in 93 matches. I knew it was loads.

Is that sustainable from an economical perspective?
[/quote]

I asked you how you see his next three seasons panning out. If you can't say how you see things going how can you have an opinion on whether we should keep him or sell him ?

I know how many he has already scored.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226041#msg1226041 date=1291043518]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42975.msg1226038#msg1226038 date=1291043382]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226027#msg1226027 date=1291042977]
You've got no idea really, have you ?
[/quote]
According to Wiki, 61 goals in 93 matches. I knew it was loads.

Is that sustainable from an economical perspective?
[/quote]

I asked you how you see his next three seasons panning out. If you can't say how you see things going how can you have an opinion on whether we should keep him or sell him ?

I know how many he has already scored.
[/quote]
You accuse me for not knowing how many goals he'll score in the coming three Seasons?

What?

I'm getting to old for this shit.

*logs off*

 

[SaintGeorge67]

How many will he score ross, exactly?

 

[Richey]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42975.msg1226033#msg1226033 date=1291043236]
This is going well...

I side with KHL on this though.

I don't want to lose any of our top players unless the issue is forced.

Just see what happened to us when we replaced Xabi Alonso. We got massive profit. We reinvested a major part of that back in the same position....but we ended up causing some major fucking damage to our coffers, owners, manager and players.

It would be better if we focussed on plugging the holes with new money than, making new ones that we can hopefully plug with cheaper but more effective material.
[/quote]

Fair point but there is a chance it will be forced isn't there?

Sticking with Torres, we have a player who clearly isn't the happiest of people at the moment. If we take the view of 'we are hanging onto him at all costs, whatever offer we get' and we attempt to just improve the squad around him then that is fine, but only if we know that money is coming from elsewhere.

If a huge influx of money is NOT coming from elsewhere then we have a situation where the best that will happen is slow, gradual improvement. That is fine in theory, but if that improvement is not enough then Torres could quite easily walk for nothing in 3 years time, or for a reduced fee in 2 years time. Then we are faced with having to replace him on the cheap aren't we, or by selling whatever other big asset we will hopefully have by then (at the same time Steven Gerrard will be about to retire incidently)

The argument is that IF we get a big offer for Torres next summer that would fund a replacement for him AND help to replace some of our shit players then we should at least weigh up the pros and cons of such an offer.

 

[kingjulian]

Haha...Ross has dug a hole for himself here.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

2008 46 games
2009 38 games
2010 32 games

so extrapolating out using sabermectrics

2011 28 games
2012 26 games

His average goals per season at present is 0.65, assuming this depreciates with age by the standard 10%, this means he'll get percisely 16.5 goals this year, and 13.87 goals the following year...

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42975.msg1226043#msg1226043 date=1291043645]
How many will he score ross, exactly?
[/quote]

Do you want the Lotto numbers too ?

My predictions: He won't score more than 20 league goals ever again.

This season he should score around 18. Next season he should score 17. The season after that 16.

If we can sell him for 40m and replace him with two strikers I think we should. It reduces our reliance on him and we'll get a better goal return out of those two than out of Nando.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42975.msg1226046#msg1226046 date=1291044146]
Haha...Ross has dug a hole for himself here.


[/quote]

I don't think I have, I think I've just shown how little thought some people put into forming their opinions on players and/or the team.

Although we already know this about KHL given his Bendtner hard on

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=42975.msg1226045#msg1226045 date=1291044116]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42975.msg1226033#msg1226033 date=1291043236]
This is going well...

I side with KHL on this though.

I don't want to lose any of our top players unless the issue is forced.

Just see what happened to us when we replaced Xabi Alonso. We got massive profit. We reinvested a major part of that back in the same position....but we ended up causing some major fucking damage to our coffers, owners, manager and players.

It would be better if we focussed on plugging the holes with new money than, making new ones that we can hopefully plug with cheaper but more effective material.
[/quote]

Fair point but there is a chance it will be forced isn't there?

Sticking with Torres, we have a player who clearly isn't the happiest of people at the moment. If we take the view of 'we are hanging onto him at all costs, whatever offer we get' and we attempt to just improve the squad around him then that is fine, but only if we know that money is coming from elsewhere.

If a huge influx of money is NOT coming from elsewhere then we have a situation where the best that will happen is slow, gradual improvement. That is fine in theory, but if that improvement is not enough then Torres could quite easily walk for nothing in 3 years time, or for a reduced fee in 2 years time. Then we are faced with having to replace him on the cheap aren't we, or by selling whatever other big asset we will hopefully have by then (at the same time Steven Gerrard will be about to retire incidently)

The argument is that IF we get a big offer for Torres next summer that would fund a replacement for him AND help to replace some of our shit players then we should at least weigh up the pros and cons of such an offer.
[/quote]

Sure...I agree. If he wants to leave, and if someone offers a 45 million+ deal we would be foolish not to consider it.

But we could also address his concerns. His concern is for us to show more ambition. We could address that by bringing in more quality players and also keeping him. Why are we paranoid about Torres wanting to go, if we are moving in the right direction as a club?

I think there will be some money. Even Mike Ashley managed to give two good transfer windows. NESV are more well off than that, and they also got a cut price deal on the club. So they won't be averse to spending some on the squad initially. I laughed at Keniget when he suggested that people are taking the speculated 'NESV model' to heart and are assuming we will suddenly focus on buying young bargain players only and try and move out any aging player. But judging from Rosco's post, i now see where Keniget was coming from...Rosco's post is based on a really extreme interpretation of two statements NESV made on aging players on big contracts, and looking for value for money in the transfer window.

In just one month....we will get a decent clue, lets wait and see.

 

[peterhague]

back on the original topic, talksport are saying that babel to juventus talks are at an advanced stage for a january transfer. no price mentioned, but hopefully at least £7m, plus you'd have thought babel would be happy enough to go there.

i know it's just gossip, but fingers crossed for this - juve owe us a favour after our summer dealings.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42975.msg1226047#msg1226047 date=1291044188]
2008 46 games
2009 38 games
2010 32 games

so extrapolating out using sabermectrics

2011 28 games
2012 26 games

His average goals per season at present is 0.65, assuming this depreciates with age by the standard 10%, this means he'll get percisely 16.5 goals this year, and 13.87 goals the following year...

[/quote]

wouldn't we look a bit bit silly if we sold torres on the back of assumption, prediction and speculation with regards to his form and fitness and he went to barca (for example) and had a prolific injury free season?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42975.msg1226058#msg1226058 date=1291045205]
back on the original topic, talksport are saying that babel to juventus talks are at an advanced stage for a january transfer. no price mentioned, but hopefully at least £7m, plus you'd have thought babel would be happy enough to go there.

i know it's just gossip, but fingers crossed for this - juve owe us a favour after our summer dealings.
[/quote]

:'(

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42975.msg1226059#msg1226059 date=1291045212]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42975.msg1226047#msg1226047 date=1291044188]
2008 46 games
2009 38 games
2010 32 games

so extrapolating out using sabermectrics

2011 28 games
2012 26 games

His average goals per season at present is 0.65, assuming this depreciates with age by the standard 10%, this means he'll get percisely 16.5 goals this year, and 13.87 goals the following year...

[/quote]

wouldn't we look a bit bit silly if we sold torres on the back of assumption, prediction and speculation with regards to his form and fitness and he went to barca (for example) and had a prolific injury free season?
[/quote]

Yes, we probably would...

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42975.msg1226048#msg1226048 date=1291044196]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42975.msg1226043#msg1226043 date=1291043645]
How many will he score ross, exactly?
[/quote]

Do you want the Lotto numbers too ?

My predictions: He won't score more than 20 league goals ever again.

This season he should score around 18. Next season he should score 17. The season after that 16.

If we can sell him for 40m and replace him with two strikers I think we should. It reduces our reliance on him and we'll get a better goal return out of those two than out of Nando.
[/quote]

KHL was simply following the adage "a bird in hand is better than two in the bush...."

We have one guaranteed 15+ goals a season striker, who on peak form can get a lot more than that. You suggest we sell him and get two 15+ goals a season strikers. Great....but we are just as likely to end up with two Robbie Keanes.

So we are better off spending some new monies and try and add to Torres.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42975.msg1226059#msg1226059 date=1291045212]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42975.msg1226047#msg1226047 date=1291044188]
2008 46 games
2009 38 games
2010 32 games

so extrapolating out using sabermectrics

2011 28 games
2012 26 games

His average goals per season at present is 0.65, assuming this depreciates with age by the standard 10%, this means he'll get percisely 16.5 goals this year, and 13.87 goals the following year...

[/quote]

wouldn't we look a bit bit silly if we sold torres on the back of assumption, prediction and speculation with regards to his form and fitness and he went to barca (for example) and had a prolific injury free season?
[/quote]

Wouldn't we equally look silly if we turned down a 40m bid only to see him spend the next season injured ?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

By the way spider. I don't actually think we should sell Torres, and I was half joking with the extrapolation of his goals..... But if the right offer came in, we should of course consider it. Same goes for any of our injury prone players.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=42975.msg1226052#msg1226052 date=1291044905]

Sure...I agree. If he wants to leave, and if someone offers a 45 million+ deal we would be foolish not to consider it.

But we could also address his concerns. His concern is for us to show more ambition. We could address that by bringing in more quality players and also keeping him. Why are we paranoid about Torres wanting to go, if we are moving in the right direction as a club?

I think there will be some money. Even Mike Ashley managed to give two good transfer windows. NESV are more well off than that, and they also got a cut price deal on the club. So they won't be averse to spending some on the squad initially. I laughed at Keniget when he suggested that people are taking the speculated 'NESV model' to heart and are assuming we will suddenly focus on buying young bargain players only and try and move out any aging player. But judging from Rosco's post, i now see where Keniget was coming from...Rosco's post is based on a really extreme interpretation of two statements NESV made on aging players on big contracts, and looking for value for money in the transfer window.

In just one month....we will get a decent clue, lets wait and see.
[/quote]

Oh of course. I don't sign up to the idea of planning to sell Torres or any of our decent players just based on stats and assumptions of how players might deteriorate.

I was just saying that we can't totally rule out selling anyone until we know what kind of funding will be available.

If we are in a position to fund new signings without selling anyone then of course that should be the approach we take, but labelling certain players as 'not for sale at ANY price' is impossible to do when we don't know yet how the new owners will operate in the transfer market and how our big name players will react to how the club is progressing.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42975.msg1226068#msg1226068 date=1291045866]
By the way spider. I don't actually think we should sell Torres, and I was half joking with the extrapolation of his goals..... But if the right offer came in, we should of course consider it. Same goes for any of our injury prone players.

[/quote]

I thought the whole point of NESV was to allow us to 'strengthen' the squad, i.e. build on the excellent players we have rather than sell the excellent players to build up the transfer kitty. with regards to torres wouldn't it be better to have torres on the books and have another quality striker besides him who can pull up the slack when torres is injuries so the need to rush back torres is lessened?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42975.msg1226075#msg1226075 date=1291047179]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42975.msg1226068#msg1226068 date=1291045866]
By the way spider. I don't actually think we should sell Torres, and I was half joking with the extrapolation of his goals..... But if the right offer came in, we should of course consider it. Same goes for any of our injury prone players.

[/quote]

I thought the whole point of NESV was to allow us to 'strengthen' the squad, i.e. build on the excellent players we have rather than sell the excellent players to build up the transfer kitty. with regards to torres wouldn't it be to have torres on the book and have another quality striker besides him who can pull up the slack when torres is injuries so the need to rush back torres is lessened?




[/quote]

Of course it would. I don't think anyone would sell him in ideal circumstances.

But I'm yet to be convinced that we have them.

 

[Richey]

I agree. If the situation is there where we can keep a proven striker and build an excellent squad around him then that is What we have to do.

If the reality is we are relying heavily on a proven striker and hoping we can plug the gaps, keep ticking along then desperately convince him not to leave in three years time that is less appealing.