But Liverpool are shite at bringing through youngsters, we are miles behind Utd, Arsenal and City in that respect
Summer rebuild 2023
- Thread starter Hansern
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Jesus Stevie.
We were told we were having a rebuild.. we were told new faces must and have to come in..
That rebuild did not include the likes of Fabinho and Henderson going out. Lavia was a target in addition to them staying. Now all of a sudden people are thinking he was their replacement? Short memories.
We have one of the thinnest squads in the league. I'm not saying we should have the bloat Chelsea have. But we certainly shouldn't have the second thinnest.
They have 3 weeks...
That really depends on the Chelsea result.
We can obviously throw around names like Elliott, Jones, Bajectic and Doak, but how good are they really? Two of them are still U19.
Elliott hasn't set the world alight and Jones is decent, but can they be relied upon?
That doesn't sound like a plan that sounds more like a patch job.
To me, a plan isn't letting 3 players go for free (not counting Milner) and signing 2 midfielders for 100 mill the same summer.
The plan if there was one, should have been to get rid of these players on expiring contracts the year before and maybe sign one midfielder.
Your plan doesn't account for that stupid Artur loan either.
Firmino, "we knew about in advance"? So we sign Gakpo in January?!
That doesn't make sense.
Later on we find ourselves selling 2 more midfielders and if there was a plan, it shouldn't have bothered us one bit, because we'd already have 22-23 year old DM in the squad.
https://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Act...-de-12m-et-8364-pour-thiago-alcantara/1412836
Few whispers being spread of a 12m from Saudi for Thiago.
Few whispers being spread of a 12m from Saudi for Thiago.
What part about getting Gakpo in before Firmino leaves doesn’t make sense to you and how would you have preferred to do it?
We had half a season with both, Bobby scored a couple of important goals and filled in while Gakpo was integrated. We likely knew Bobby wasn’t extending & got Gakpo in.
We wouldn’t have got much for Bobby had we sold him at the same time as Mane - he was probably more valuable as a player being released on a free than a small amount of cash.
It’s neither here to there if Keita & Ox left on frees - again - there was no monetary value in them, nobody was looking to buy them and they were likely both injured during the transfer window.
We should have fucked Naby off years ago - but we didn’t and we were stuck with him. I can’t remember a preseason we’re both Naby and Ox we’re available to be sold, to be honest.
We had half a season with both, Bobby scored a couple of important goals and filled in while Gakpo was integrated. We likely knew Bobby wasn’t extending & got Gakpo in.
We wouldn’t have got much for Bobby had we sold him at the same time as Mane - he was probably more valuable as a player being released on a free than a small amount of cash.
It’s neither here to there if Keita & Ox left on frees - again - there was no monetary value in them, nobody was looking to buy them and they were likely both injured during the transfer window.
We should have fucked Naby off years ago - but we didn’t and we were stuck with him. I can’t remember a preseason we’re both Naby and Ox we’re available to be sold, to be honest.
Honestly, if that really was a plan, it wasn't a good one.
And your last statement is basically what irks me the most. Add Ox to that as well. In an ideal world those two would have been two players ready to take over the reins.
I don't want to keep going on about this, I just don't think it's a good idea to go into a season not knowing if Firmino will sign a new contract and then get a player in January.
We did the same with Gini and Can.
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That squad size table is utter bollocks mate. Take a look at who they include (and exclude from ours) and it makes no sense at all.
It absolutely can't be used to make any reasonable comparison.
You're asking that decisions are made at least a year in advance. And in an ideal world that would be very nice but when the real world comes knocking you have to react with alacrity if the opportunity arises.
Considering the decisions and timing of said decisions by Bobby, Hendo and Fabs I feel that Gakpo was a great buy at the perfect time, that luckily Hendo was already replaced in the starting team but now we need to add a squad player from our youth (Badger), and that we're scrambling to replace Fabs ... but if we get Lavia, or even better Caiceido, we've done a brilliant job.
If we get Caicedo it's a fantastic patch job and I really hope we don't wind up in the same situation again.
We're now one CB from having a great balance in the squad between the older, those in their prime and the youth.
Midfield rebuilt for 5 years.
more importantly the hope is back
Revisiting my May 15 post:
[article]"Defensive monster"
Characteristics – a proper ball winner. Often doesn't have be tied to one position – this player can be nominally a 6, or an 8 or even an inverted full-back or CB/DM. Key is the ability to protect yourself against counter-attacks; speed, dominant athleticism, tactical intelligence and tackling ability are non-negotiable requirements in this position.
1. Moises Caicedo, 21 (Brighton) £90M+. A Wijnaldum with more defensive "bite." Intelligent, fiery, a clean tackler and keeps getting better by the day. Seems an ideal fit; the only issue is the price.
2. Manuel Ugarte, 22 (Sporting) £52M release clause. Physically imposing, a proper combative DM type who can also play a bit. Judging from his tackling style, a potential red card liability in the EPL, could be a bit wild, but hopefully that will be ironed out with good coaching.
3. Aurelien Tchouameni, 23 (Real Madrid), probably £70M+ if he becomes available. Madrid would be stupid to let a generational DM go, but Florentino Perez has a history of doing just that and it does seem that Tchouameni is becoming marginalized lately, probably due to the president's wishes. Don't think we'll be favourites to land him even if he decides to move.
"Just give him the ball"
Characteristics – an all-around talent, physically imposing and able to do everything on the football pitch; a team's primary midfield engine. A new Gerrard or Vieira. Any team can use this kind of player: however it could be argued that with Trent's move into midfield, we have less of an urgent need for these qualities.
1. Jude Bellingham, 19 (Dortmund) £120M+. He's very, very good and very, very expensive. Likes us, but will probably sign for Madrid.
2. Khephren Thuram, 22 (Nice) £50M+Lilian Thuram's younger son has grown into a superb all-around midfielder and should be considered a worthy Bellingham alternative.
3. Alex Scott, 19 (Bristol) £30M+ It's hard to see how we can accommodate a young attack-minded player in this midfield, given the likes of Bajcetic, Jones and Elliott also need to play. Would need to be loaned out.
"Off-the-ball runner"
Characteristics – see "tireless runner" description above.
1. Nicolo Barella, 26 (Inter) £70M+. Other than Madrid's Valverde, Barella is probably currently the classiest midfielder of this type in Europe. A worthy successor to Gattuso, the Sardinian has 8 goals and 9 assists in all competition so far in addition to his all-action selfless running and energy. At that age, he will be looking for his big payday if he moves.
2. Mason Mount, 24 (Chelsea) £70M. Started as an AM/winger, but it seems his biggest talent (and the reason why Klopp reportedly really likes him) is his off-the-ball work, movement and intelligence. Looks like Pochettino will do his best to keep him at Chelsea.
3. Dominik Szoboszlai, 22 (RB Leipzig). Doesn't seem to be actively linked with us or anyone else yet and I have no idea how much he'd cost, but worth keeping an eye on. Like Hendo (or Mount) he seems to be the type who is starting as a winger/AM but seems to have the engine and willingness to cover ground and press that makes me think his future will be in this hybrid midfield/attack role.
"Jack of all trades"
1. Alexis MacAllister, 24 (Brighton) £70M. A player living through his dream season, having won the World Cup and helped his club team to achieve their best-ever season. A proper leader and a useful cog in many ways; I think he would be a perfect Milner replacement – but I also think he is way overpriced for the type of player he is.
2. Ryan Gravenberch, 20 (Bayern) £25M+. Different from MacAllister, but I think he also can be classified in this category. He can be useful in every phase of play, but doesn't seem dominant in either. I have a hard time justifying why we seem to be prioritizing these players over others who have more of the qualities that we need.
[/article]
“Jack of all trades” - done
“Off-the-ball runner” - done
“Defensive monster” - on the way
“Just give him the ball” - pass (I guess Trent now assumes that role)
This is like playing Footie Manager - you can create a perfect plan and execute it within one window. Very rarely something like that happens in real life. Wow.
[article]"Defensive monster"
Characteristics – a proper ball winner. Often doesn't have be tied to one position – this player can be nominally a 6, or an 8 or even an inverted full-back or CB/DM. Key is the ability to protect yourself against counter-attacks; speed, dominant athleticism, tactical intelligence and tackling ability are non-negotiable requirements in this position.
1. Moises Caicedo, 21 (Brighton) £90M+. A Wijnaldum with more defensive "bite." Intelligent, fiery, a clean tackler and keeps getting better by the day. Seems an ideal fit; the only issue is the price.
2. Manuel Ugarte, 22 (Sporting) £52M release clause. Physically imposing, a proper combative DM type who can also play a bit. Judging from his tackling style, a potential red card liability in the EPL, could be a bit wild, but hopefully that will be ironed out with good coaching.
3. Aurelien Tchouameni, 23 (Real Madrid), probably £70M+ if he becomes available. Madrid would be stupid to let a generational DM go, but Florentino Perez has a history of doing just that and it does seem that Tchouameni is becoming marginalized lately, probably due to the president's wishes. Don't think we'll be favourites to land him even if he decides to move.
"Just give him the ball"
Characteristics – an all-around talent, physically imposing and able to do everything on the football pitch; a team's primary midfield engine. A new Gerrard or Vieira. Any team can use this kind of player: however it could be argued that with Trent's move into midfield, we have less of an urgent need for these qualities.
1. Jude Bellingham, 19 (Dortmund) £120M+. He's very, very good and very, very expensive. Likes us, but will probably sign for Madrid.
2. Khephren Thuram, 22 (Nice) £50M+Lilian Thuram's younger son has grown into a superb all-around midfielder and should be considered a worthy Bellingham alternative.
3. Alex Scott, 19 (Bristol) £30M+ It's hard to see how we can accommodate a young attack-minded player in this midfield, given the likes of Bajcetic, Jones and Elliott also need to play. Would need to be loaned out.
"Off-the-ball runner"
Characteristics – see "tireless runner" description above.
1. Nicolo Barella, 26 (Inter) £70M+. Other than Madrid's Valverde, Barella is probably currently the classiest midfielder of this type in Europe. A worthy successor to Gattuso, the Sardinian has 8 goals and 9 assists in all competition so far in addition to his all-action selfless running and energy. At that age, he will be looking for his big payday if he moves.
2. Mason Mount, 24 (Chelsea) £70M. Started as an AM/winger, but it seems his biggest talent (and the reason why Klopp reportedly really likes him) is his off-the-ball work, movement and intelligence. Looks like Pochettino will do his best to keep him at Chelsea.
3. Dominik Szoboszlai, 22 (RB Leipzig). Doesn't seem to be actively linked with us or anyone else yet and I have no idea how much he'd cost, but worth keeping an eye on. Like Hendo (or Mount) he seems to be the type who is starting as a winger/AM but seems to have the engine and willingness to cover ground and press that makes me think his future will be in this hybrid midfield/attack role.
"Jack of all trades"
1. Alexis MacAllister, 24 (Brighton) £70M. A player living through his dream season, having won the World Cup and helped his club team to achieve their best-ever season. A proper leader and a useful cog in many ways; I think he would be a perfect Milner replacement – but I also think he is way overpriced for the type of player he is.
2. Ryan Gravenberch, 20 (Bayern) £25M+. Different from MacAllister, but I think he also can be classified in this category. He can be useful in every phase of play, but doesn't seem dominant in either. I have a hard time justifying why we seem to be prioritizing these players over others who have more of the qualities that we need.
[/article]
“Jack of all trades” - done
“Off-the-ball runner” - done
“Defensive monster” - on the way
“Just give him the ball” - pass (I guess Trent now assumes that role)
This is like playing Footie Manager - you can create a perfect plan and execute it within one window. Very rarely something like that happens in real life. Wow.
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If the reports about what we've offered for Caicedo are accurate, it's no more than £10 mill.shy of what Bellingham would have cost. Bellingham's younger and English and was known to want to sign for us, none of which applies to Caicedo. I'd certainly prefer Caicedo to Lavia, but I'd have taken Bellingham in preference to either.
I was in awe of this post when we signed the first two but it's just beautiful now.
Just wondering where you would put Lavia or Andre on this list?
I don't agree, but there's obv.room for debate there. It does worry me that Caicedo would prefer moving to London though.
I guess we as a club think Curtis can do the Bellingham role.
With Fabinho gone and Bajetic very raw, we had a glaring need for a specialist DM.
If he holds up that shirt, we are sorted for 5 years hopefully.
BTW let's continue this post and try to classify the rest of our current set of midfielders:
Curtis Jones – "controller." This is a player whose main attribute is looking after the ball, being press-resistant and helping your team dominate possession. High priest of this type of player is Iniesta; best current example in the EPL – Bernardo Silva. Add a bit of physical stature and you get a Wijnaldum. Curtis is not at those levels yet, but the end of last season was incredibly impressive and I can't wait to see if he can continue his upwards trajectory.
Thiago – "just give him the ball." One of the best pure midfielders who have ever graced these shores; I still think it's possible he leaves, but if he stays having all these younger legs around him will definitely help him. Even so, I don't think he is an automatic starter for us anymore.
Bajtecic – a little early to properly classify, but I think he is currently a defensively-oriented #8 who will probably eventually become a #6.
Elliott – "tireless creator." A player with technique and vision of a #10, but a midfielder's engine. I think someone like Lallana is a good example, among current top players I would mention Odegaard and to some extent Grealish as possible role models for Elliott (depending on whether he will eventually gravitate towards the wing of a midfield playmaker role). Seems ideally suited to the role of an attack-minded sub who comes on when first 11 runs out of ideas and to freshen things up.
Curtis Jones – "controller." This is a player whose main attribute is looking after the ball, being press-resistant and helping your team dominate possession. High priest of this type of player is Iniesta; best current example in the EPL – Bernardo Silva. Add a bit of physical stature and you get a Wijnaldum. Curtis is not at those levels yet, but the end of last season was incredibly impressive and I can't wait to see if he can continue his upwards trajectory.
Thiago – "just give him the ball." One of the best pure midfielders who have ever graced these shores; I still think it's possible he leaves, but if he stays having all these younger legs around him will definitely help him. Even so, I don't think he is an automatic starter for us anymore.
Bajtecic – a little early to properly classify, but I think he is currently a defensively-oriented #8 who will probably eventually become a #6.
Elliott – "tireless creator." A player with technique and vision of a #10, but a midfielder's engine. I think someone like Lallana is a good example, among current top players I would mention Odegaard and to some extent Grealish as possible role models for Elliott (depending on whether he will eventually gravitate towards the wing of a midfield playmaker role). Seems ideally suited to the role of an attack-minded sub who comes on when first 11 runs out of ideas and to freshen things up.
Lavia is a difficult one – his best qualities have to do with passing and getting through the press in the first phase of build-up, but he is not a playmaker by personality, I think. I think it's most likely he develops into a more attack-minded of 2 double-pivot midfielders like Tielemans. But there is also a chance he could become a killer #6 with a wide variety of tools – that would be by far the best scenario for him, but require improving in a lot of areas.
Andre is a natural playmaker for sure; he takes responsibility for the build-up phase. If his toughness and combative nature successfully translates to European football (without getting constantly sent off) and he can adapt to the tactics here (not a given for many great South American players), I think he could eventually follow the path of the likes of Casemiro, Fabinho, Thiago Motta etc – a top-class modern #6 equally adept at building up and defending.
Me too but that said... No CL and he signed for Real so...
I reckon he'd still have signed for us if we'd met the asking price. He and his fam thought we'd be the best destination for him. at this stage of his career anyway.
However, that ship's sailed now and, provided Caicedo's properly committed, he'd be the next best option IMO.
However, that ship's sailed now and, provided Caicedo's properly committed, he'd be the next best option IMO.
[article] . The pros of the deal are obvious: this is a unicorn football player. All the technical, athletic & mental attributes with still so much upside that he can thrive in any environment. Capability to play as a #6, all-action #8 or even a FB if necessary. He’s an exemplary talent, and one Liverpool fans should be excited to see at their club. However, he does leave some questions about Liverpool systematically, more so because of the expense of the transfer, and prospectively, this will be their last deal of the window. If Liverpool cannot sign a LCB because of the expenditure on Caicedo, it leaves them vulnerable in their current 3-2–2-3 setup. Robertson is a sub-optimal option for the LCB role: not a deep passer nor does he have the body orientation to viably defend in the aforementioned role. This may mean Jürgen Klopp reverts to a more traditional setup, such as the 2-4 deep build-up, with Van Dijk & Konaté being the CBs, Robertson & Trent holding width, whilst MacAllister & Caicedo provide passing options between the lines. This allows Liverpool to attack in a 2-3-5, getting Robertson & Trent into positions where they are most effective. It quells the urgent need for a LCB. Interested to see how Klopp moves tactically with this acquisition.[/article]
Bellingham wanted to go to Real Madrid. I think that much has been established despite all the season long respites. That, in my view, is why we walked away.
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