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So, our actual problems

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RedStar said:
I dont think its possible to be successful (by that I mean challenge for a title) with this midfield. Even with the best defenders around you cannot give away the ball in the sorts of positions we have been and expect not to get punished. We were weak on set pieces against Everton but at least 2 of those came directly from fouls Lucas gave away in dangerous areas and the 3rd as a result of a ridiculous mishit pass from Henderson. You cannot invite that sort of pressure on your team and then just blame the defenders.
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Lucas had a good game, but all of that was undone with those couple of errors. There was one moment we've seen too many times (and it's not something that's exaggerated), their player was going nowhere, facing away from our goal looking for a pass, and Lucas inexplicably tries to tackle him from behind instead of holding him up and waiting for support, he does it time and time again and he has done since he came here. It's something he should have knocked out of his game given his experience, but he continues to undo what good work he has done in a match by giving away needless opportunities in dangerous areas. Exactly the sort of reason why people get frustrated by him and want better, I don't care how much of a fan people are or how underrated people think he is, it's brainless moments like this which prevent him being an intelligent, top drawer defensive midfielder.

Any one of Lucas, Allen or Henderson could get away with it with some real quality alongside them, try to create a partnership there though and we're trying to get blood from a stone in terms of creating a quality midfield. We need to spend money.
 
RedStar said:
I dont think its possible to be successful (by that I mean challenge for a title) with this midfield. Even with the best defenders around you cannot give away the ball in the sorts of positions we have been and expect not to get punished. We were weak on set pieces against Everton but at least 2 of those came directly from fouls Lucas gave away in dangerous areas and the 3rd as a result of a ridiculous mishit pass from Henderson. You cannot invite that sort of pressure on your team and then just blame the defenders.
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Spot on.
 
Just to clear something up: Lucas did not give away the free kick for the first goal.
 
I think realistically if we're going to be as attacking as it seems the manager wants us to be, then the triangle of holding midfielder and two centre backs needs to be world class. I don't have complete faith in Agger and Skrtel; I don't think either of them look great unless they are playing alongside a dominant, leader at the back. And I don't have complete faith in Lucas either. I think until that platform is sorted, then we'll remain vulnerable.
 
Quiffing mildly, but I think @gkmacca summed it up pretty perfectly in another thread, something along the lines of:

We gave Everton multiple one on ones that in the past a good Liverpool team would only let happen once every 10 games.

Once we get this sorted, we'll be a real force. I think we are very close as we have the majority of the personnel (I think a trio made up of Lucas + Sakho/Toure/Agger/Skrtel behind him has the potential to be that - it just needs additional tight support from one of the RB/LBs. Maybe there will be a time when we need a more combative DM e.g. M'Vila but I think Lucas when not getting a bit hot headed (surely we can forgive him for getting passionate/ desperate in an away derby match!) he is a very good player in his position.

But to summarise, I think it is the organisation of the defence/ midfield when we don't have possession rather than the personnel in it. But we need someone in there to be organising!
 
Ryan, this problem with Rodgers and the defence has been argued a million times on here. It seems there's two camp's, the stability 'dont change them' camp and the 'its all about the squad and the long season' camp (the fucking stupid camp).
He's stupidly I think ended up in a position with 4 'first choice' CB's, instead of having 2 or 3 and an Illori and another youth player or something like that, he's got 4. He needs to sell Agger or Skrtel, or both for all I care, and play 2, one being Sakho + someone. And play them for the rest of the season bar injuries, as it's not like we've got loads of games to play.

I honestly don't think it'd ruin our game if we played Sakho and Toure (even though Toure is a fucking bottler) for the rest of the season.
 
Mors said:
Ryan, this problem with Rodgers and the defence has been argued a million times on here. It seems there's two camp's, the stability 'dont change them' camp and the 'its all about the squad and the long season' camp (the fucking stupid camp).
He's stupidly I think ended up in a position with 4 'first choice' CB's, instead of having 2 or 3 and an Illori and another youth player or something like that, he's got 4. He needs to sell Agger or Skrtel, or both for all I care, and play 2, one being Sakho + someone. And play them for the rest of the season bar injuries, as it's not like we've got loads of games to play.

I honestly don't think it'd ruin our game if we played Sakho and Toure (even though Toure is a fucking bottler) for the rest of the season.
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Thats on the money apart from Toure the being a bottler bit, wtf is all that about?

You know the old cliche when a manager has a lot of options and its 'a good problem to have', well it actually seems to be a genuine non good problem for Rodgers having those 4 first choice centre backs, hes been trying to accomodate all 4 for the whole season so far, he needs to make his mind up on Sakho or Agger and stick with it, i think Sakho has to play purely on the fact hes better in the air than Agger, we can't afford to keep conceding conceding from set pieces, Toure should really be starting over Skrtel to, it would at least be handy to see the Toure/Sakho partnership and see how it goes.
 
Agger played shit like he can do. There are better options playing well at the minute so he should be fourth choice CB. Mignolet needs to work on his kicking, lots. Johnson played shit on the left, we need a new left back, Lucas played shit like he always does, should be sold. Allen missed a sitter. It happens. If you're going to have Coutinho anywhere his own box for set pieces he needs to do something other than let people wander past him and score.

I reckon if we bought one rock solid thundercunt of a midfielder and a boss left back we'd be ace.
 
Woland said:
Agger played shit like he can do. There are better options playing well at the minute so he should be fourth choice CB. Mignolet needs to work on his kicking, lots. Johnson played shit on the left, we need a new left back, Lucas played shit like he always does, should be sold. Allen missed a sitter. It happens. If you're going to have Coutinho anywhere his own box for set pieces he needs to do something other than let people wander past him and score.

I reckon if we bought one rock solid thundercunt of a midfielder and a boss left back we'd be ace.
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I don't disagree with the last line one bit.

but the "Lucas played shit" bit is bollocks mate. He was superb in the first 45, at least.
 
Ryan said:
Lucas was superb in the first 45 minutes on Saturday. He, along with Mignolet stopped it being half a dozen. the problem with him is that, and this has been consistent across the first dozen or so games of this season, he gets booked far too often, but more crucially - he doesn't look fit.

He's not on his own in that regard (which is another broader discussion) but him blowing out his fucking arse after 60 minutes of every game is a problem. Everton completely walked through our centre mid for the last 30 minutes and created chance after chance, which wasn't the case in the first 45. I'm not sure how we solve that, but getting him fitter would be a fucking start. And telling him to stop making stupid needless tackles.
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So, what's the problem? Pushed back from injury too quickly? I think you are suggesting that our training regime is insufficient for the type of game we are trying to play - resulting in inferior second-half performances. If so, why would that be? Rodgers has had long enough to instill the habits and fitness levels that should be needed. I'm not questioning your observation, but wonder why we should be suffering this way.
 
Ryan said:
Nobody out of that back four is commanding that back four. There's no one player there who's got the balls to get us into shape, and to tell the other 3 where to go. BR said it himself last season, yet he's gone back to the back 2 CB's he didn't like in the first place. God knows why.
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Sakho seems solid to me. He's not a leader (yet) but there's some sort of presence about him. Toure's not got the legs for a full season, but I'd put him in. He directs, controls, and looks like he knows what the fuck he's doing. Give him games. And no one or two, but find a back 2, a back 4 if you fucking can, and let them play for 15-20 games. I remember Houllier giving up on Ziege after the Leeds-Viduka debacle and going to four at the back, the same four, and our defence was astounding from then on. Rodgers needs to take the same approach. It's been my main criticism of him since day 1; he has not built a solid back four, and he won't even come close to winning a League until he does.
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Agree with all that. If we get a good offer for Skrtel or Agger (maybe even both?) we should be happy to sell. The end of the transfer window was strange. We all accepted Skrtel was on his way, and for not that great a fee, when he was forced into action against United and was outstanding. The "farewell" performance we thought, but he wasn't sold and we kept playing him afterwards as he was value for a place in the side. I wonder what wa happening behind the scenes - as others have said, 4 first-choice Central defenders is NOT a good thing. I think we'd do well to get a good defensive coach to work with the team - currently there is certainly a weakness.
 
I'd be nonplussed if I didn't see Agger or Skrtel (or Johnson) figure again, we've given them enough seasons to show their consistency and they always fall short.
 
Mersey86 said:
So, what's the problem? Pushed back from injury too quickly? I think you are suggesting that our training regime is insufficient for the type of game we are trying to play - resulting in inferior second-half performances. If so, why would that be? Rodgers has had long enough to instill the habits and fitness levels that should be needed. I'm not questioning your observation, but wonder why we should be suffering this way.
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I don't think it's a particularly new thing, Lucas has never looked like he can do it for 90 minutes, maybe it's because of his pressing game, but the one on Saturday that stood out wasn't really the work of tired legs, it was plain stupid, and it's not the first time. So blaming fatigue or a lack of physical fitness seems a bit of a cop-out, it's physically easier to hold a player up than throw a challenge in with tired legs. He didn't need to launch himself into a tackle, where he was never going to win the ball legitimately, when the player had his back to him, and where the danger was marginal.

I think someone's mistaking being short of fitness for being short of the performance we've only seen fleetingly.
 
mark1975 said:
I'd be nonplussed if I didn't see Agger or Skrtel (or Johnson) figure again, we've given them enough seasons to show their consistency and they always fall short.
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The thing with Agger is he has always shown total commitment to us, Barca and other CL clubs have been sniffing for years but he has never shown interest in leaving us to join any of them which is so rare, he deserves big respect for that, it would be a sad day when he leaves but i get why Rodgers might want to finally move on from from him and Skrtel, one of them at least definately won't be here at the start of next season.

Johnson is one if the last players we should want to sell.
 
Fabio said:
I like agger, I like Skrtel, both I think are fantastic defenders when paired with someone who tells then what to do. We looked better when carra was bollocking whoever was his partner. Sadly, I think it's too late for either of them to learn by now so we should look forward.

I'd put Sakho next to Toure and let him learn from the big man, so he can develop like a mother fucker. Off the field Sakho should be learning from Toure too.

We might develop something special then

When Toure leaves us leaving a stronger, more vocal Sakho, then we aim to bring ilori in

Pow

*cumataclysm*
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id fucking love to see sakho and toure together, it might be a disaster, it might be brilliant, either way itll be fucking entertaining
 
The midfield is the pressing concern for me.

I can live with choosing between Sakho, Agger, Skrtel and Toure (with Ilori coming through) for central defence.
I can live with Johnson and Enrique as fullbacks (though would certainly be looking into that in the summer)
I can live with Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho, Moses, Ibe, Sterling as attacking options.

But choosing between Lucas, a Gerrard in decline, struggling Allen and willing but limited Henderson for three central midfield slots is not good enough.
 
"struggling Allen"

Prior to Saturday, he'd played 36 minutes this season.

Give him a fucking break.
 
good post Ryan - it has helped to dissuade me of my obsession with FIREPOWER - we need to sort the defence out. I would add that the inability of our midfield to protect our defence is a major factor.
 
Ryan said:
"struggling Allen"

Prior to Saturday, he'd played 36 minutes this season.
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OK - what do you think needs doing fo the midfield? I know you "rate" Allen, and Lucas to a lesser extent. Also your dislike of any notional "first XI". The central midfield somehow just doesn't seem to work for us. What we have, however deployed, doesn't seem sufficient. What's the answer? Would M'Vila help?
 
When you can't get into the team despite being one of the new managers marquee signings, you are struggling big time of course.
 
One of Skrtel or Agger needs to be sold in January - Skrtel is the likeliest. Perfect time to sell, when he's played a bit and had the odd decent game - we might not have to give him away, which would make a nice change.

The thrust of the thread, that we need an organiser who dominates at the back is absolutely correct - it was obvious that Agger & Skrtel we're an issue the minute Carrsgher was resurrected last season.

Collectively, Skrtel & Agger are great against teams that don't press high up the pitch and pressure them. Toure is a good option paired with one of them & Sakho should get a chance as well.

It's not the only problem - there are problems in every line.

In midfield, Lucas isn't capable of 90 minutes, Gerrard's "Xabi Alonso impression" isn't quite happening.

Upfront, we're at least one player short - Jordan Henderson is not the man to play anywhere near the attacking third.

That saying - we ain't doing badly, so we're capable of stringing together enough results to make the top 4.
 
mark1975 said:
I'd be nonplussed if I didn't see Agger or Skrtel (or Johnson) figure again, we've given them enough seasons to show their consistency and they always fall short.
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With Agger and Skrtel is arguable we already have better options, or at least more suitable ones, available. With Johnson its pretty clear that he is our best right back, hells he is probably our best left back too, so unless we are going out and signing some demon of a right back in January I am very much of the opinion that he should stay in the team.

Thats not to say he doesnt have painful lapses in concentration that a guy his age is unlikely to ever cut out but we really dont have a better or even comparable option. We have been waiting 2 years for Kelly to displace him and it just hasnt happened. If Johnson can be moved on in the summer then its probably the right time but until then hes our best bet in that position.

If it was a choice between spending €15m on M'Villa or replacing Johnson I think we would be insane not to address the midfield first
 
gene hughes said:
Well I still think we have a massive problem in midfield but on the defense, and specifically Agger and Skrtel, I wondered since Rafa left if they'd simply lost the ability to defend in situations where everyone in front of them isn't set up to 'control the game' Rafa style. Even under hodgson and Kenny they seemed to struggle when we stopped trying to smother games from start to finish. Perhaps they never were great defenders and they just started their careers with us in a great defensive 11.
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Good point, Gene.
 
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