So, our actual problems

[Ryan]

This is going to upset a few people because it's not about one player.

Evidently, all defeats are caused by one shit performance, one missed chance, one player who's attributes you can't define in simple fanboy terms. I should know this, but I must have forgotten, so forgive the thread in advance.

We conceded 3 on Saturday. We could have conceded 10. Let me break down some statistical truths for you (Oh, and stop reading now if all you can take is 'Lucas is shit' or 'What does Allen do?' as a post-match critique):

Saturday:
- Everton had 18 shots. We had 11. Everton had more shots on target than we had fucking shots anywhere; 12 to our 11.
- Everton had 8 (eight) one-on-one's with our goalkeeper. Eight. 8.
- We conceded 3 goals from set-pieces.

This season:
- Only 3 teams in the Top 12 have conceded more goals than us.

Last season:
- Only 1 team in the Top 7 conceded more than us.

This Forum:
- Active threads atop the 1st page of the FF;
'Allen'
'Gerrard'
'Johnson - worth persisting with?'
'Mirallas tackle on Suarez'
'Mignolet'
'd studge'
'Post Match thread'


Allow me to boil this down simply for you. It is rarely, if ever, one player's fault that you lose or draw a football match. Unless you do what Artur Boruc did on Saturday, it's a team thing. I'm about to destroy many preconceptions regarding where blame should be apportioned after a game of football; it's not one player's fault.

It's not Joe Allen's fault.
It's no Lucas' fault.
It's not Gerrard's fault.

It's because we conceded 3 goals on Saturday, and are continually conceding far too many goals. It's all there for you to see. Year upon year. That's a trend. Joe Allen's miss is not a trend.

So now I've got that out of the way, I'm going to focus on our real issue: the defence.

Firstly, several factors haven't helped...
- Injuries. Regardless of their own individual merits, having Glenjo, Enrique, Agger, etc injured hasn't helped. The likelihood is that BR's gonna pick those three most weeks anyway.
- New players. Sakho, Toure, Cissokho. Guys like that need time; you can't have half your team made up of new players who haven't played togethor. Case in point; Spurs.
- Inconsistent back four - Again, defences need to be playing week in, week out.
- Mignolet. Amazing shot-stopper, but I've no idea yet if he controls his defence well enough.
- 3 at the back/4 at the back. Flipping it about like that provides variation going forward, but defences hate it.
- A higher line. Since Carra retired, BR's moved them 5-10 yards up the pitch. Long term gain sure, but short term agony right now as good strikers are dragging us everywhere.
- And plenty more...

All of the above have contributed, but for me, they're by-products of a disorganised, leaderless defensive unit. We don't look like a team that can control a game from the back. Not sure if anyone watched the Chelsea-West Ham game on Saturday evening, but Terry was terrific. He owned the entire back half of the pitch. Led, controlled, dominated, and West Ham never looked like threatening. How badly we need someone like that. A Kompany, a Hyypia, a leader. Everton's first goal on Saturday - no one dominating in the air when the ball comes in. Newcastle's first against us, same thing. Attack the fucking ball in the air. Own the fucking penalty box.

Nobody out of that back four is commanding that back four. There's no one player there who's got the balls to get us into shape, and to tell the other 3 where to go. BR said it himself last season, yet he's gone back to the back 2 CB's he didn't like in the first place. God knows why.

The Skrtel-Agger partnership doesn't cut it for me. Individually they're capable of performances, but collectively they're hapless. Someone posted a gif in one of the other threads of Agger dallying while Lukaku got played in behind for another 1-on-1. It was through-ball-1.01-stuff. As much Skrtel's fault as Agger's that one - why are they not talking? Why does a simple angled run from Lukaku get a free shot on goal? Why is Skrtel always having to slide in and make last ditch tackles? How many times did Hyypia or Hansen go to ground? Why is Agger after 6 years in the side still making error after error? These two played most of last season togethor and still you brought back in Carragher, who was fucking done, cos you didn't trust them. They're not going to cut it togethor now.

Sakho seems solid to me. He's not a leader (yet) but there's some sort of presence about him. Toure's not got the legs for a full season, but I'd put him in. He directs, controls, and looks like he knows what the fuck he's doing. Give him games. And no one or two, but find a back 2, a back 4 if you fucking can, and let them play for 15-20 games. I remember Houllier giving up on Ziege after the Leeds-Viduka debacle and going to four at the back, the same four, and our defence was astounding from then on. Rodgers needs to take the same approach. It's been my main criticism of him since day 1; he has not built a solid back four, and he won't even come close to winning a League until he does.

We're scoring more goals, and looking more threatening going forward than I can remember under any Liverpool team, but our back four are shite as a unit, and it needs fixed.

Rant over.

 

[Skullflower]

i was thinking that during the game. after a summer of spending, the players on the field were all there last season. i'd rather have sakho and toure out there.

 

[localny]

Good post. Surely the midfield fit into this defensive critique as well though. Do you consider our current midfield options as part of this defensive problem and if so how would you fix that?

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

Regardless of all the other issues Joe Allens miss is what cost us the win, would of been game over, it threw Everton a lifeline and spurred them on to go and get something out of a game they should of been dead and buried in.

Ive always been a fan of Skrtel and especially Agger but it is looking like it probably is time to move on from them, Sakho should play every week, hes a little rough round the edges but if they ever get ironed out he has the attributes to be the best defender in this league, he clearly has leadership qualities aswell, captaining PSG at 17 tells you as much, maybe it is to early though for him in his LFC career to be shouting the odds at everyone?

Don't mean to have a dig at Gerrard but Toure is our real captain when he is on the pitch, as you say he directs, controls, and looks like he knows what the fuck he's doing and we desperately need that in our team/defence, i would have him in every game but only at centre back, but Skrtel has been playing very well so it would be tough on him.

 

[tony]

For me it IS the midfield that's the problem. Whether that's down to the formation or personel - the amount of space in front of our defence at times on saturday was frightening.

 

[Jack D Rips]

The midfield was not responsible for our defending at set pieces on Saturday

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

For me it IS the midfield that's the problem. Whether that's down to the formation or personel - the amount of space in front of our defence at times on saturday was frightening.

100% they are part of the problem, really its only in games against the better teams when our flaws as a team are exposed similar to last season, we clearly need better midfielders if we really want to be a really good team again.

Gotta admit i quite like the whole gung ho attitude of trying to outscore teams and not worrying to much about conceding, it strange though because while it does seem obvious thats how we go about things in certain games especially at Anfield, Rodgers does seems to flip flop with that sort of mentality, the first few games of the season it was shut up shop in the second half when we had the lead but in others we just go for it regadless of being 1 or 2 nil up.

 

[King Binny]

Not sure if anyone noticed this from the stats thread

[article]Liverpool have scored just five goals in the second half of their previous 11 PL games this season, conceding seven.

If matches ended at half time this season, Liverpool would be five points clear at the top of the Premier League table.[/article]

Normally, its easier to defend a lead/good result. Almost 1/3 of the season gone but still seem to be bogged down by this.

 

[Rosco]

How do you start with the idea that our problem doesn't lie with one player's performance or attributes, but then suggest that the answer lies in one player bringing leadership to the team ?

We've watched players like Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Johnson, the artist formerly known as Steven Gerrard etc plant us squarely in midtable for three consecutive years.

We're conceding as many as we did when we played 5-10 yards deeper.

Not enough has changed yet, and I can't see one good organiser sorting out our midfield and defensive issues.

 

[Ryan]

How do you start with the idea that our problem doesn't lie with one player's performance or attributes, but then suggest that the answer lies in one player bringing leadership to the team ?

We've watched players like Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Johnson, the artist formerly known as Steven Gerrard etc plant us squarely in midtable for three consecutive years.

We're conceding as many as we did when we played 5-10 yards deeper.

Not enough has changed yet, and I can't see one good organiser sorting out our midfield and defensive issues.

I wasn't suggesting one player was the answer. I said we needed a better defensive unit, a consistent back four, a far greater focus on defensive structure from the Manager, and a much better CB pairing. At the very least, we need a CB who can control a defence.

 

[Fabio]

Sakho for captain!

 

[Fabio]

Or at least on the fucking pitch

 

[Fabio]

I like agger, I like Skrtel, both I think are fantastic defenders when paired with someone who tells then what to do. We looked better when carra was bollocking whoever was his partner. Sadly, I think it's too late for either of them to learn by now so we should look forward.

I'd put Sakho next to Toure and let him learn from the big man, so he can develop like a mother fucker. Off the field Sakho should be learning from Toure too.

We might develop something special then

When Toure leaves us leaving a stronger, more vocal Sakho, then we aim to bring ilori in

Pow

*cumataclysm*

 

[Hansern]

Many good points and I feel we discuss the same issues in the match and post match threads.
We all know we need a solid back four. The Glen Jo thread is valid because we obviously need to decide if he can be part of that or not.
The CB pairing isnt good enough. For all the critisicm Agger gets we keep more clean sheets with him in the team.
I'd like to try Agger - Sakho on sunday. The best defensive organizer we've got is Toure, and a Toure - Sakho partnership could be given ago aswell.

Its all fine and dandy talking about the back four, but a huge part of the problem is the dysfunctional midfield.
The reason our back four is under so much pressure is because our midfield gets overrun with ease.
Part of that problem is having someone who takes command and can control a game.
Gerrard will play and Lucas isnt good enough.

We need a better shaped back four and a organizer but we also need to fix our dysfunctional midfield, which is a big part of the problem.

 

[Ryan]

Good post. Surely the midfield fit into this defensive critique as well though. Do you consider our current midfield options as part of this defensive problem and if so how would you fix that?

So yeah I didn't really get to that.

Lucas was superb in the first 45 minutes on Saturday. He, along with Mignolet stopped it being half a dozen. the problem with him is that, and this has been consistent across the first dozen or so games of this season, he gets booked far too often, but more crucially - he doesn't look fit.

He's not on his own in that regard (which is another broader discussion) but him blowing out his fucking arse after 60 minutes of every game is a problem. Everton completely walked through our centre mid for the last 30 minutes and created chance after chance, which wasn't the case in the first 45. I'm not sure how we solve that, but getting him fitter would be a fucking start. And telling him to stop making stupid needless tackles.

Gerrard's another almighty issue which has been done to death.

But one of the main points is (and this gets forgotten) if you're gonna creat and score as many as we do and have been, then some of that comes at a cost. Gerrard, Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge, etc - that's why we're scoring goals sure. We're setup to go and score at the minute. And fine if you're gonna keep that mindset, United did it for years under Ferguson, but it means you put strain on your back 4, and they've got to be fucking quality to cope with it. There's no Stam, Ferdinand, Vidic, etc in our back four. They're simply not good enough, or organised enough.

Anyway, I've lost track of my point somewhat cos somobody just came and interrupted me here for 15 mins, but long story short; Lucas needs to be fitter, we need more support beside him in the Gerrard role cos 1 midfielder caring about defending is not enough, but then you take out Gerrard and we take out 30 goals a season from the team, and the back four's not good enough.

 

[the_khl]

Good idea for a thread Ryan, many good posts too.

I think there is not one major problem but many minor ones that adds up. The first being that we have simply not got the spending power of some of our rivals.

Secondly I believe our change in style, that has gone from very cautious under Rafa to long balls under Roy and at times unbalanced with too many weak links under Kenny to a far more attacking minded approach has made us more vulnerable at times. More often will it leave your central defenders, like the example from the Everton game, where both of them should've done better to prevent Lukaku, completely isolated.

Third of the most obvious reasons are our defending from setpieces. Too many simply turns off it seems in those situations or looks clueless. Every defender from time to time and also those down to help out. I am amazed we are still that weak in this area and it is certainly a department that Sakho looks very strong in.

Finally, key players have for longer stretches not kept a reasonable level - and as you say some has gotten injured a lot. Hard to single anyone out as everyone bar perhaps Suarez (and he then bit someone) has hit too low a level from time to time.

I am not here to fight or getting all emotional about Agger, I have promised ILD as much, but what do you make of the stat that says Agger is the CB with the most clean sheets in all of the Prem since the start of last Season? He's on 18 now I believe.

Is that down to luck or the opponents or simply that you may have underestimated his influence on our team? Just like posters from time to time obviously underestimate players like Skrtel (I have held my hand up this Season where I think he has been very good) and for instance Lucas (whom is no world beater but better than his rep). Honest question, don't tear my head off. Cheers.

The stat I have not made up: https://twitter.com/WhoScored/status/390439506509172737

 

[Rafiagra]

For me, our centre backs should be Toure and then one other. He's the only one with the experience and its no good sat on the bench. He's top quality and organises things much more than any other player.

 

[ILD]

When Toure leaves us leaving a stronger, more vocal Sakho, then we aim to bring ilori in

Pow

-Mind Blown-

 

[mom]

Of course one player shouldn't be a scape goat. That's crazy. One crap display in a crucial area of the pitch can cost us, but not,often the whole game. And yeh, the defence needs sorting.

 

[ILD]

Disclaimer; If this reads like I'm shit stirring, I'm not. I'm just breaking down some thoughts.

I'll address it to Ryan as the creator of the thread. You've stated many times that we needed class players in attacking positions. Okay, we've got them to a certain extent, Sturridge, Gerrard, Suarez, Coutinho. You've gone on record saying that a brilliant central midfield pairing wasn't that important. Phew, ours isn't in great shape. So is the defense the latest flavour of the month to hash out for us? Well, we are conceding so it's a valid talking point.

I'm find it frustrating that our defense is what is meant to be letting us down now. (I think it's a combination of the defenders and the midfield btw). We cried out for defensive reinforcement as we spent a summer being linked to various attacking midfielders we had never heard of. Rodgers entered the market and returned home with more than one. Happy right? It's what we cried out for back in July.

Kolo once perceived as 4th choice was suddenly first choice. Skrtel went from being the forgotten man to an automatic starter. Sakho arrived with a big rep and an even bigger transfer fee yet there was now no automatic place for him. Agger returned from injury and was left out in the cold for a while. Rodger's toyed with three at the back which I hated. I honestly think he just said fuck it, I'm going three at the back, need to play these fuckers somewhere. It was convenient for a while to use Suarez and Sturridge as the excuse. How both needed to be accommodated up front together. Then it was only until Coutinho got back. Either way, it looks dead in the water so i'm happy. We became disjointed with three at the back and without the proper wing backs at our disposal the idea became more and more redundant.

I totally agree with your sentiment Ryan, keep the defense simple, organised and constant. This need to apportion blame to one player/defender over another annoys me also. I brought this up in another thread. Dissecting goals to the nth degree to lay blame on someone's feet to perhaps exonerate another won't help us long term if we are defending poorly as a unit. This isn't a dig at Mark or Khl, we are all guilty of this at times.

I like all our CB's, you won't ever see me lording one over the other. I don't even care which two play. I was always an Agger fan so if a gun was put to my head i'd pick Toure and Agger. Seems harsh on Skrtel but I want Kolo in the team. He is a winner, a leader, a talker, a motivator, insert superlative here. He will try organise us. Put him back in the team please. Then pick a leftie, Agger or Sakho. Perhaps moving forward, Sakho is the correct choice. I can seen him being a CB for us for a long time if given the opportunities.

Looking forward to January transfer window. Go all out and get a LB and a DM. Shaw would be the dream LB signing for me. I don't think he is realistic at the mo. His price will be heavily inflated and the player himself might want to spend another year at Southampton to nurture his game.

Will we get to that window still in good shape. Rodgers just needs to keep it simple. Pick a settled defense and allow Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho win games for us. So no more, Moses in the hole or three at the back please.

 

[Whirly]

We shouldn't look as bad as we do at times, and that's part of the issue I would say. As far as key players go, our central defenders and keeper are definitely good enough. We are pretty much sorted in attack as well as far as top options go. The midfield is the questionmark for me, and I think we need more energy there. Gerrard and Lucas individually are okay in that midfield, but having both just makes us too slow, we need a quick thinker there, not a long ball specialist(at this point), and a destroyer. You don't need great fullbacks to be a great side, just ones that are good enough, and those options are definitely available.

It needs to be ONE of Gerrard/Lucas paired with Allen against Hull for me. Allen needs another opportunity where the game flows through him, and Hull is the perfect opportunity for that. If he struggles, the criticism won't be unwarranted. If we can't sort out our options in this next three match stretch, I think we need to invest heavily in a new option, be it in January or later on. Conceivably one of Skrtel/Agger should be made available for sale to a UCL side that needs another eligible CB, clearing up some money.

 

[gene hughes]

Well I still think we have a massive problem in midfield but on the defense, and specifically Agger and Skrtel, I wondered since Rafa left if they'd simply lost the ability to defend in situations where everyone in front of them isn't set up to 'control the game' Rafa style. Even under hodgson and Kenny they seemed to struggle when we stopped trying to smother games from start to finish. Perhaps they never were great defenders and they just started their careers with us in a great defensive 11.

 

[Gary25]

Some good points Ryan, but you're deliberately deflecting attention away from our woeful midfield.

 

[RedZeppelin III]

Oh i could probably write the longest post in the world in a thread like this . Anyway others have touched on the defence and midfield so i'll raise the question of signings.

What have we got from our summers signings bar squad depth ? Mingolet seems to be the only one who gets in the team now . I do understand it can take players time to settle but unless they are very young can that be done by sitting on the bench ? .
For a team who really needs to get back into the champs league have we bought well under rodgers ? It's very hit and miss with only Sturridge , Coutinho and mingolet in the team now . We've got so little from the likes of Allen , Aspas , Alberto , Cissokho and i'll include assaidi and borini who cost near 15m between them and are already on loan . And when you spend 17m on a defender surely he should be going straight into the team and staying there , it's a waste of money otherwise .

So you can talk tactics , substitutions , promoting young players and all that stuff but so much of top level management comes down who you sign . It's an area Rodgers (and this new super recruitment team) haven't convinced me on yet at all .

 

[RedZeppelin III]

Also why have we adapted this tactic of sitting back in the second half and trying to hit teams on the break ? I don't mind doing it from 75mins on but we seem to come straight out from half time with this being the plan. Or is it related to lucas and others looking so unfit ?

 

[RedZeppelin III]

ah fuck holding back ....i don't like most of this team at all , bar the 3 lads up front and maybe Sadko & mingolet the rest are average or too inconsistent . Its why they are debated individually so much on this board.

And i don't even think we play that decent a style of football , well certainly not this season for the majority of games . It does come out (fulham at home) but for the most part we've not seen it . But i guess that is fine if we get results .

So yeah we're in a decent position but right now i'm not confident it couldn't all fall apart . If we're still up there come the end of the season i will of course give them the credit they deserve , let's see though .

 

[RedStar]

The defence has looked great at times this season and awful at others but considering the amount of changes we have made, including formations, its nor that surprising considering there has been no real stability there. Id like to see us play as much as possible from now til Jan using the same back 4, there is no harm resting/rotating when players need a break or pick up a knock but a settled defence is better than one that constantly changes regardless of the personnel involved. Thats one issue but its pretty easily resolved, you pick your strongest 4 and keep playing them.

The major concern is a midfield that neither scores enough goals or provides anything resembling defensive cover. Our defence has only had a couple of poor games where as our midfield has had very few games where they werent out played. We dont seem to have any sense of an over all plan, sometimes we press high up the pitch sometimes we dont bother putting a tackle in until the opposition is 10 yards inside our half, sometimes we pass it around in tight triangles and other times we get easily hustled out of possession and start panicking. We rarely get any runners from midfield supporting the strikers, unless its a once a game burst from Henderson or Allen arriving late to blast the ball wide. Our defensive strategy seems to revolved around Lucas barging into the back of opposing players once they get near our box for the first 45 minutes and then getting 9 men behind the ball for the 2nd 45 minutes hoping to cling on or hit on the break.

Gerrard only seems to have a maximum of 45 mins in his legs these days, some games less depending on the tempo, and Lucas as noted in the original post is spent after an hour tops. Henderson can run all day but he cant cover a 3 man midfield for the other two who look like they need an oxygen mask for the last 30 mins. Whats worse with the midfield is that at least we have options at CB to change it, we can bring in Toure or Sahko depending on which pair fits together best. In midfield we have 4 senior players for 3 positions, two of whom are dead on their feet in the 2nd half. We badly need at least 1 midfielder in Jan or we will slide down the table in the second half of the year.

I think we have massively over achieved so far but we still have some very tricky fixtures to go over Christmas and City away in particular looks like a potential for disaster. I cant see us staying in the top 4 over the course of the season with a midfield as poorly balanced as ours, we have been reasonably lucky so far in getting a point from Newcastle and Everton when we were outplayed, its not a trick we will be able to repeat over 38 games.

 

[keniget]

Well, yeah. This is something we talked about a lot last season - there is a lack of defensive discipline in Rodger's Liverpool. Perhaps we're slightly biased because we've come off the back of 10 years with managers like Houllier and Benitez who prioritize a solid defensive foundation, but it is hard to look past our defensive unit making mistake after mistake every game.

But on that note, take Benitez' Liverpool. As good as Hyypia and Carra were, we relied on the midfield to protect them and when that midfield didn't do it's job, they suffered. Our midfield now lets the opposition run through them game after game and no defence is going to cope with that for a season.

I asked this question in the other thread and the discussion shifted into this one - what will it take for a Liverpool team with it's current midfield at it's heart to be successful?

Are we saying that all they need is a solid defence behind them and better from Rodgers?

 

[mark1975]

Sakho and a new midfielder could go along way to rectifying our woes. He might have looked a bit rash at times, but at least he dominates and can head a ball, which is more than can be said for Skrtel and Agger.

I think over the years Agger, Skrtel, Lucas and Johnson have all proven themselves to be inconsistent performers, I don't care how much of a fan people are or how great they can be on their day, we never get consistent levels of performance from any of those four over a season, I think that's a massive part of our inability to put in consistent challenges for European Football and it's also the reason that defensively we aren't a patch on what we were a few years ago.

Taking Saturday's game in isolation, tell me you haven't seen the same from these players regularly:

Johnson - clumsy in possession, poor concentration
Agger - caught out of position, weak in the challenge and not dominant enough
Skrtel - Holding players desperately instead of jumping and challenging, getting caught under the ball
Lucas - Giving away free kicks against players who are going no where with their backs to our goal.

It's the same old shite every couple of weeks.

 

[RedStar]

what will it take for a Liverpool team with it's current midfield at it's heart to be successful?

Are we saying that all they need is a solid defence behind them and better from Rodgers?

I dont think its possible to be successful (by that I mean challenge for a title) with this midfield. Even with the best defenders around you cannot give away the ball in the sorts of positions we have been and expect not to get punished. We were weak on set pieces against Everton but at least 2 of those came directly from fouls Lucas gave away in dangerous areas and the 3rd as a result of a ridiculous mishit pass from Henderson. You cannot invite that sort of pressure on your team and then just blame the defenders.