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[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37882.msg1014946#msg1014946 date=1260933299]
Honestly Drizzt, I'd actually like to have this conversation with you, but you seem to not have a fucking clue, so that's a problem.

You're suggesting it was fine for Agger to follow Arshavin halfway up the pitch because "zonal marking in open play" allows it.

I'm here to tell you it doesn't, because otherwise you'd have Agger (and everyone else) running all over the fucking park*.



* Don't get me wrong, I'm down with players interchanging, swopping roles, passing on players etc. But this specific Agger issue is not that. He got drawn out of position badly, with no pereciveable cover, leaving us stretched, exposed, and fucked.
[/quote]

Seriously, are you deliberately trying to make me look good, by listing the exact opposite of the principles of zonal marking so I can correct you? Your alternative to pressuring the player on the ball is what to continually back-off until someone has to chop them down from behind or they are in the box? That's exactly what Carragher has been doing all season and it's already cost us far too many goals.

Agger did the right thing, he was closest to the ball, he HAS to pressure. The fact we didn't cover or balance properly is a problem. The fact is we ended up outnumbering them in the box is testament to the fact that there was plenty of cover at the end; there were 3 of our players between the ball and their one player? How is Agger the problem then?

If you want to see a text book example of what happens when you don't pressure players who drop off, watch the 4-4 game. Arshavin time after time dropped off of Carragher who was too scared to pressure him and hence he got the ball in space and scored.

That goal was all about Aurelio, Carragher and Johnson having a chance to clear and failing. Blaming Agger is obviously some kind of agenda crap compounded by ignorance.
 
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=37882.msg1014996#msg1014996 date=1260939727]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37882.msg1014946#msg1014946 date=1260933299]
Honestly Drizzt, I'd actually like to have this conversation with you, but you seem to not have a fucking clue, so that's a problem.

You're suggesting it was fine for Agger to follow Arshavin halfway up the pitch because "zonal marking in open play" allows it.

I'm here to tell you it doesn't, because otherwise you'd have Agger (and everyone else) running all over the fucking park*.



* Don't get me wrong, I'm down with players interchanging, swopping roles, passing on players etc. But this specific Agger issue is not that. He got drawn out of position badly, with no pereciveable cover, leaving us stretched, exposed, and fucked.
[/quote]

Seriously, are you deliberately trying to make me look good, by listing the exact opposite of the principles of zonal marking so I can correct you? Your alternative to pressuring the player on the ball is what to continually back-off until someone has to chop them down from behind or they are in the box? That's exactly what Carragher has been doing all season and it's already cost us far too many goals.

Agger did the right thing, he was closest to the ball, he HAS to pressure. The fact we didn't cover or balance properly is a problem. The fact is we ended up outnumbering them in the box is testament to the fact that there was plenty of cover at the end; there were 3 of our players between the ball and their one player? How is Agger the problem then?

If you want to see a text book example of what happens when you don't pressure players who drop off, watch the 4-4 game. Arshavin time after time dropped off of Carragher who was too scared to pressure him and hence he got the ball in space and scored.

That goal was all about Aurelio, Carragher and Johnson having a chance to clear and failing. Blaming Agger is obviously some kind of agenda crap compounded by ignorance.
[/quote]

I thought the whole point of zonal marking is that you don't leave your zone to pressure an opponent and that a defender only pressurises a player if he enters their zone.

I might be wrong, of course.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1014718#msg1014718 date=1260900932]
Would you rather have Yossi or Valencia?
[/quote]

I'd rather see if Brendan would rather have Kuyt or Valencia ... Then you'd at least you'd up a Manc against a player he likes and rates.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37882.msg1015020#msg1015020 date=1260946818]
There was plenty of cover behind Agger.
[/quote]

Indeed so. One on the back position and two in the box. I can not see how this goal in anyways is meant to be Agger's fault.

I reckon this has a lot to with Ryan repeatedly arguing that Agger really isn't that good a defender after all. It suits his argument better this way.

IS THAT IT RYAN?
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=37882.msg1015077#msg1015077 date=1260960373]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37882.msg1015020#msg1015020 date=1260946818]
There was plenty of cover behind Agger.
[/quote]

Indeed so. One on the back position and two in the box. I can not see how this goal in anyways is meant to be Agger's fault.

I reckon this has a lot to with Ryan repeatedly arguing that Agger really isn't that good a defender after all. It suits his argument better this way.

IS THAT IT RYAN?
[/quote]

I don't really want to lay it on Agger, but he made mistakes in the previous game which I highlighted because I thought it showed the problems we have in general at the back, with the centre getting constantly stretched. We've missed Arbeloa a lot I've thought, at least in terms of him tucking inside and creating a central three when needed and compressing the space. I don't want to get into a Skrtel/Agger/Carra thing, but this is something of a 'fuck you' to everyone who thought the introduction of Agger would cure our woes, it clearly hasn't, and as highlighted, it's not necessarily his fault, and nor was it Skrtel's or Carragher's.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37882.msg1015187#msg1015187 date=1260978772]
What is our goal conceded average with Carra/Skrtel vs Carra/Agger?
[/quote]

What's the points tally? Does it matter? Does it look fixed to you?
 
Kuyt could be an inspiration on the bench (when we get more talent or hes of form which has definately been more often than not for us). If you are trailing a game what a player to inject, he scores big goals and never stops chasing. Exactly what you need. He was inspiration coming of the bench against Portsmouth last year. With that fantastic finish.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1015188#msg1015188 date=1260978939]
Does it look fixed to you?
[/quote]

Nope -
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37882.msg1015194#msg1015194 date=1260979382]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1015188#msg1015188 date=1260978939]
Does it look fixed to you?
[/quote]

Nope -
[/quote]

Anyway, have you tried FM2010 yet? I need to get hold of it and get back into the swing of things 🙂
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1015236#msg1015236 date=1260984451]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37882.msg1015194#msg1015194 date=1260979382]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1015188#msg1015188 date=1260978939]
Does it look fixed to you?
[/quote]

Nope -
[/quote]

Anyway, have you tried FM2010 yet? I need to get hold of it and get back into the swing of things 🙂
[/quote]

I haven't mate ... and I'm not sure I want to ... I'm too busy with a kid (& playing for an Anglo league here) ... How you manage with 9 - I don't know ... much respect.
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=37882.msg1015190#msg1015190 date=1260979144]
Kuyt could be an inspiration on the bench (when we get more talent or hes of form which has definately been more often than not for us). If you are trailing a game what a player to inject, he scores big goals and never stops chasing. Exactly what you need. He was inspiration coming of the bench against Portsmouth last year. With that fantastic finish.
[/quote]

I don't see what the issue is here, I really don't. The team isn't functioning for various tactical and personnel reasons, it seems people are jumping on the wrong issues/players. If we had a quality left sided player, Gerrard, Aqua and Torres fully fit, Kuyt and or Yossi would be more than welcome additions to that side. Not every player can be a star, these are top quality players, but shy of the quality of Gerrard and Torres, that's all. In a functioning attacking unit both have more than proven their worth with valuable contributions and important goals.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37882.msg1015238#msg1015238 date=1260984586]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1015236#msg1015236 date=1260984451]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37882.msg1015194#msg1015194 date=1260979382]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1015188#msg1015188 date=1260978939]
Does it look fixed to you?
[/quote]

Nope -
[/quote]

Anyway, have you tried FM2010 yet? I need to get hold of it and get back into the swing of things 🙂
[/quote]

I haven't mate ... and I'm not sure I want to ... I'm too busy with a kid (& playing for an Anglo league here) ... How you manage with 9 - I don't know ... much respect.
[/quote]

Ha.. I know the feeling, I haven't even played on 09 much over the last 6 months or so, I'm starting to feel nostalgic about the whole thing, it's been that long.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=37882.msg1015188#msg1015188 date=1260978939]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37882.msg1015187#msg1015187 date=1260978772]
What is our goal conceded average with Carra/Skrtel vs Carra/Agger?
[/quote]

What's the points tally? Does it matter? Does it look fixed to you?
[/quote]
It's not fixed but it has looked better of late.

Before the Fiorentina non-game the Agger/Carra combo had kept 3 clean-sheets in a row and if it wasn't for that silly own goal against Arsenal I reckoned they would've got one more to their tally in the weekend.

Anyways, Agger hasn't been back to his best just yet either in my opinion. He's been rather solid in the back but hasn't inlfuenced our play further up the field as much as I would've hoped for.

Really hope him and Skrtel keeps a clean-sheet tonight as well as we see them beeing instrumental in our build-up play. I'd like that.
 
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=37882.msg1014996#msg1014996 date=1260939727]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37882.msg1014946#msg1014946 date=1260933299]
Honestly Drizzt, I'd actually like to have this conversation with you, but you seem to not have a fucking clue, so that's a problem.

You're suggesting it was fine for Agger to follow Arshavin halfway up the pitch because "zonal marking in open play" allows it.

I'm here to tell you it doesn't, because otherwise you'd have Agger (and everyone else) running all over the fucking park*.



* Don't get me wrong, I'm down with players interchanging, swopping roles, passing on players etc. But this specific Agger issue is not that. He got drawn out of position badly, with no pereciveable cover, leaving us stretched, exposed, and fucked.
[/quote]

Seriously, are you deliberately trying to make me look good, by listing the exact opposite of the principles of zonal marking so I can correct you? Your alternative to pressuring the player on the ball is what to continually back-off until someone has to chop them down from behind or they are in the box? That's exactly what Carragher has been doing all season and it's already cost us far too many goals.

Agger did the right thing, he was closest to the ball, he HAS to pressure. The fact we didn't cover or balance properly is a problem. The fact is we ended up outnumbering them in the box is testament to the fact that there was plenty of cover at the end; there were 3 of our players between the ball and their one player? How is Agger the problem then?

If you want to see a text book example of what happens when you don't pressure players who drop off, watch the 4-4 game. Arshavin time after time dropped off of Carragher who was too scared to pressure him and hence he got the ball in space and scored.

That goal was all about Aurelio, Carragher and Johnson having a chance to clear and failing. Blaming Agger is obviously some kind of agenda crap compounded by ignorance.
[/quote]

There's a massive difference between chasing a player who's running away from goal halfway up the pitch, and backing off with a player running at you Drizzt.

I agree with you regarding the Arsenal goals last year (although I would place far more blame on Arbeloa and Aurelio for the backing off bit than Carra incidentally), but comparing that to the sitauion we're discussing here is nonsense.

You obviously need to have a look at the goal again. Song plays the ball forward to Arshavin who's running directly towards his own goal, and right into Lucas and Mascherano. Agger chases him so fucking far he actually runs past our two midfielders. Watch it again. What the fuck is he doing chasing him that far up the pitch? There's no benefit can be gained from it. It was probably exactly what Arshavin and Arsenal wanted. A defender dragged (needlessly) out of space, and Arsenal have space in the hole for the first time in the game.

I'm not inferring Agger's a bad player, I've reiterate fucking billions of times that I really rate him. But he made a mistake, borne out of naivety, and it cost us.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37882.msg1015812#msg1015812 date=1261004035]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=37882.msg1014996#msg1014996 date=1260939727]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37882.msg1014946#msg1014946 date=1260933299]
Honestly Drizzt, I'd actually like to have this conversation with you, but you seem to not have a fucking clue, so that's a problem.

You're suggesting it was fine for Agger to follow Arshavin halfway up the pitch because "zonal marking in open play" allows it.

I'm here to tell you it doesn't, because otherwise you'd have Agger (and everyone else) running all over the fucking park*.



* Don't get me wrong, I'm down with players interchanging, swopping roles, passing on players etc. But this specific Agger issue is not that. He got drawn out of position badly, with no pereciveable cover, leaving us stretched, exposed, and fucked.
[/quote]

Seriously, are you deliberately trying to make me look good, by listing the exact opposite of the principles of zonal marking so I can correct you? Your alternative to pressuring the player on the ball is what to continually back-off until someone has to chop them down from behind or they are in the box? That's exactly what Carragher has been doing all season and it's already cost us far too many goals.

Agger did the right thing, he was closest to the ball, he HAS to pressure. The fact we didn't cover or balance properly is a problem. The fact is we ended up outnumbering them in the box is testament to the fact that there was plenty of cover at the end; there were 3 of our players between the ball and their one player? How is Agger the problem then?

If you want to see a text book example of what happens when you don't pressure players who drop off, watch the 4-4 game. Arshavin time after time dropped off of Carragher who was too scared to pressure him and hence he got the ball in space and scored.

That goal was all about Aurelio, Carragher and Johnson having a chance to clear and failing. Blaming Agger is obviously some kind of agenda crap compounded by ignorance.
[/quote]

There's a massive difference between chasing a player who's running away from goal halfway up the pitch, and backing off with a player running at you Drizzt.

I agree with you regarding the Arsenal goals last year (although I would place far more blame on Arbeloa and Aurelio for the backing off bit than Carra incidentally), but comparing that to the sitauion we're discussing here is nonsense.

You obviously need to have a look at the goal again. Song plays the ball forward to Arshavin who's running directly towards his own goal, and right into Lucas and Mascherano. Agger chases him so fucking far he actually runs past our two midfielders. Watch it again. What the fuck is he doing chasing him that far up the pitch? There's no benefit can be gained from it. It was probably exactly what Arshavin and Arsenal wanted. A defender dragged (needlessly) out of space, and Arsenal have space in the hole for the first time in the game.

I'm not inferring Agger's a bad player, I've reiterate fucking billions of times that I really rate him. But he made a mistake, borne out of naivety, and it cost us.
[/quote]

So you agree that if you have someone intelligent playing between the lines who drops off and you don't deal with them then it will cost you (in our case 4 goals), but then when someone is in between the lines you don't think we should pressure them?

If you do agree you need to pressure who should pressure?

091217042829.jpg


And how does the 7 yards he followed Arshavin from our high defensive line constitute chasing him all over the pitch?

091217042953.jpg


Anyhow it is what it is, I think we agree now it's a little more involved than your original "Carra great for backing off, Agger bad for running all over pitch quip"

BTW The VERY VERY first rule of defending is you stay between the ball and your goal. If you are going to break that rule then you better have a bloody good reason and the "Arbeloa" goal against Arsenal is all about Carragher breaking that cardinal rule. It's an absolutely schoolboy error to sprint off to the sidelines leaving a 40 yd hole for someone to run into, yes it's obvious why he decided to do it, but the decision was wrong and to hump it on Arbeloa ignores the fundamentals of defending.
 
Drizzt, you are bang on the money.

The screenshots certainly underlines why the defender would/should push up in this scenario. When looking at the second screenshot you'd actually be tempted to put all your money on the defense. By the looks of it we are keeping our lines very well.

It was a fluke goal down to a school-boy error by Johnson. He wasn't on his toes and sadly got caught out.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=37882.msg1015996#msg1015996 date=1261046542]
Drizzt, you are bang on the money.

The screenshots certainly underlines why the defender would/should push up in this scenario. When looking at the second screenshot you'd actually be tempted to put all your money on the defense. By the looks of it we are keeping our lines very well.

It was a fluke goal down to a school-boy error by Johnson. He wasn't on his toes and sadly got caught out.
[/quote]

Yeah it's a pity for Johnson, the deflection obviously caused a brain fart.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37882.msg1016075#msg1016075 date=1261057019]
Drizzt in a TKO ...
[/quote]

Ha ha ha, he really did nail that one didn't he?
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37882.msg1016303#msg1016303 date=1261079441]
*Immediately sides back with Ryan*
[/quote]

Chuckles
 
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