Rafa to Juve link denied

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=38644.msg1044591#msg1044591 date=1264679368]
There is a lot of rather sad revisionist nonsense being spouted in here. And to continually insinuate that the manager almost has some sort of grand master plan to see us fail is fucking embarassing.

I think Ryan has often been clutching at straws in recent months when adamantly defending Rafa but - and I never quite thought I'd say this - I can kinda understand where he's coming from recently and why he does it. The team has been shit and Rafa is largely to blame, but fucking hell, there are some excruciatingly shit posts on here.


[/quote]

Ryan is the Ying to Dreamy's Yang

Both are tiresome in their own way.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=38644.msg1044591#msg1044591 date=1264679368]
There is a lot of rather sad revisionist nonsense being spouted in here. And to continually insinuate that the manager almost has some sort of grand master plan to see us fail is fucking embarassing.

I think Ryan has often been clutching at straws in recent months when adamantly defending Rafa but - and I never quite thought I'd say this - I can kinda understand where he's coming from recently and why he does it. The team has been shit and Rafa is largely to blame, but fucking hell, there are some excruciatingly shit posts on here.


[/quote]Youre being a bit hysterical Ken. I dont think ANYONE is insinuating he wants us to fail. Theres good and bad with any manager, Rafa's bad is generally involving the transfer market and his wheeling and dealing.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044594#msg1044594 date=1264679573]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38644.msg1044591#msg1044591 date=1264679368]
There is a lot of rather sad revisionist nonsense being spouted in here. And to continually insinuate that the manager almost has some sort of grand master plan to see us fail is fucking embarassing.

I think Ryan has often been clutching at straws in recent months when adamantly defending Rafa but - and I never quite thought I'd say this - I can kinda understand where he's coming from recently and why he does it. The team has been shit and Rafa is largely to blame, but fucking hell, there are some excruciatingly shit posts on here.


[/quote]Youre being a bit hysterical Ken. I dont think ANYONE is insinuating he wants us to fail. Theres good and bad with any manager, Rafa's bad is generally involving the transfer market and his wheeling and dealing.
[/quote]

Also, I'd challenge Keni to find ANY lengthy thread on this, or any other website that doesn't have a fair share of "excruciatingly shit posts"

 

[Atlas]

I think Keni might be referring to Vlads post 'not wanting it to work'?

It's the same with the Lucas threads, most people don't think Lucas is great and should be a starting 11 player, but end up posting and 'defending' Lucas to bring some balance to the over the top posts that people have made regarding Lucas.

 

[Mike Hunt]

[quote author=Asim link=topic=38644.msg1044599#msg1044599 date=1264680051]
I think Keni might be referring to Vlads post 'not wanting it to work'?

It's the same with the Lucas threads, most people don't think Lucas is great and should be a starting 11 player, but end up posting and 'defending' Lucas to bring some balance to the over the top posts that people have made regarding Lucas.
[/quote]
Behave.

He's a regular match goer!

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044594#msg1044594 date=1264679573]
Youre being a bit hysterical Ken. I dont think ANYONE is insinuating he wants us to fail. Theres good and bad with any manager, Rafa's bad is generally involving the transfer market and his wheeling and dealing.
[/quote]

Hmmmm....

 

[Atlas]

[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38644.msg1044600#msg1044600 date=1264680183]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38644.msg1044599#msg1044599 date=1264680051]
I think Keni might be referring to Vlads post 'not wanting it to work'?

It's the same with the Lucas threads, most people don't think Lucas is great and should be a starting 11 player, but end up posting and 'defending' Lucas to bring some balance to the over the top posts that people have made regarding Lucas.
[/quote]
Behave.

He's a regular match goer!
[/quote]

Huh?

Are you talking about Vlad? Yeah I think he has mentioned it before not sure what they has to do with this though

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=38644.msg1044600#msg1044600 date=1264680183]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38644.msg1044599#msg1044599 date=1264680051]
I think Keni might be referring to Vlads post 'not wanting it to work'?

It's the same with the Lucas threads, most people don't think Lucas is great and should be a starting 11 player, but end up posting and 'defending' Lucas to bring some balance to the over the top posts that people have made regarding Lucas.
[/quote]
Behave.

He's a regular match goer!
[/quote]

What's your point, Ake?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=38644.msg1044603#msg1044603 date=1264680431]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044594#msg1044594 date=1264679573]
Youre being a bit hysterical Ken. I dont think ANYONE is insinuating he wants us to fail. Theres good and bad with any manager, Rafa's bad is generally involving the transfer market and his wheeling and dealing.
[/quote]

Hmmmm....
[/quote]No disrespect intended Ken. Its just a bit if an ott post and not really in character.

 

[keniget]

I know that Oncey.

But that's how I've been feeling lately. Rafa has made enough mistakes during his time here without having to find fault where there was none or to magnify every tiny detail of his reign as some glaring fuck up.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.

 

[themn]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the strength of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]

Uh-oh !

I see a receipt coming.....

 

[Niall K]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the strength of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]

Just shows that when people say football has gone mad its true. Cause there's no way the squad he's assembled is worth anything like that.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]HAHAHAHA what a shite argument.
'This is what i estimate our team then was worth, this is what i estimate our squad now is worth'
Facto.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044696#msg1044696 date=1264684701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]HAHAHAHA what a shite argument.
'This is what i estimate our team then was worth, this is what i estimate our squad now is worth'
Facto.
[/quote]

😉

When you're trying to compare two squads i think it's one factor that should be taken into consideration Oncy (amongst others obviously).

One squad had Gerrard and Carra (+ a couple of ageing legends), the other has quality like Gerrard, Carra, Mascher, Reina, Torres, Magic, Aquilani + some very decent players like Riera, Agger, Kuyt, Yossi and Skrtel.

Rafa's squad also has a whole host of talented youngsters coming through which could save us millions.

Is it not obvious which squad is clearly the better?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044706#msg1044706 date=1264685573]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044696#msg1044696 date=1264684701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]HAHAHAHA what a shite argument.
'This is what i estimate our team then was worth, this is what i estimate our squad now is worth'
Facto.
[/quote]

😉

When you're trying to compare two squads i think it's one factor that should be taken into consideration Oncy (amongst others obviously).

One squad had Gerrard and Carra (+ a couple of ageing legends), the other has quality like Gerrard, Carra, Mascher, Reina, Torres, Magic, Aquilani + some very decent players like Riera, Agger, Kuyt, Yossi and Skrtel.

Rafa's squad also has a whole host of talented youngsters coming through which could save us millions.

Is it not obvious which squad is clearly the better?







[/quote]Oh come on mate, Ageing legends? Hyppia played under Rafa for 5 more years. Finnan for 3, Riise for 4. We had Owne too who in todays market would be worth 60 million. Murphy and Hamman are both better than Lucas.
This is all besides the point mate, im not saying our squad isnt better, it clearly is, what im bothered about is that given what we have had in the meantime 250m in and 130m out we should expect more than a slightly better squad.
Bellamy, crouch and other players would improve our squad but they were in and out in no time at all.
3 years ago United had Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Brown, O'shea, Rooney, Carrick, Van der sar, Park, Etc etc and they are still there., They may still be some squad only players but it is what it is.
How many of our players were here 3 years ago?
Carragher, Reina, gerrard and kuyt. I think thats it. Theres a revolving door at our club and it goes so quick we often dont get time to stop and take the good ones off before it spins again.

 

[Squiggles]

The only way to measure a squad is to look at the league table.

Nothing else really matters.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044706#msg1044706 date=1264685573]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044696#msg1044696 date=1264684701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]HAHAHAHA what a shite argument.
'This is what i estimate our team then was worth, this is what i estimate our squad now is worth'
Facto.
[/quote]

😉

When you're trying to compare two squads i think it's one factor that should be taken into consideration Oncy (amongst others obviously).

One squad had Gerrard and Carra (+ a couple of ageing legends), the other has quality like Gerrard, Carra, Mascher, Reina, Torres, Magic, Aquilani + some very decent players like Riera, Agger, Kuyt, Yossi and Skrtel.

Is it not obvious which squad was clearly the better?


[/quote]

Owen and Riise were only 24.
Kewell hadn't started being so bad then and was only 26.
Finnan was only 28.
Murphy was 27 and although not great was certainly more effective than Aquilani has been (and generally got a similar amount of goals to Yossi)
Hyypia and Hamann were admittedly 30 by then but if you are discounting them as aging legends then surely you have to do the same with Gerrard and Carragher now!!

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Yeah fair enough Oncy, i wouldn't disagree with a lot of that mate.

What i would add is that last summer i think we saw the end of the "revolving door policy", with a shift towards quality over quantity. Taking into account the squad he had in his early years with us, i don't think he had any other choice but to spread his kitty around.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044727#msg1044727 date=1264687087]
Yeah fair enough Oncy, i wouldn't disagree with a lot of that mate.

What i would add is that last summer i think we saw the end of the "revolving door policy", with a shift towards quality over quantity. Taking into account the squad he had in his early years with us, the fact that his budget was - at best - no more than that of his closest competitors, who all had a major head start on him, AND the fact that there are huge expectations of every Liverpool manager regardless of such factors, i don't think he had any other choice but to spread his kitty around.


[/quote]

Just added a couple of things which I think also have to be weighed in the balance. Rafa's made his own mistakes, but a fair assessment has to take all these things into account.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38644.msg1044723#msg1044723 date=1264686435]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044706#msg1044706 date=1264685573]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044696#msg1044696 date=1264684701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]HAHAHAHA what a shite argument.
'This is what i estimate our team then was worth, this is what i estimate our squad now is worth'
Facto.
[/quote]

😉

When you're trying to compare two squads i think it's one factor that should be taken into consideration Oncy (amongst others obviously).

One squad had Gerrard and Carra (+ a couple of ageing legends), the other has quality like Gerrard, Carra, Mascher, Reina, Torres, Magic, Aquilani + some very decent players like Riera, Agger, Kuyt, Yossi and Skrtel.

Is it not obvious which squad was clearly the better?


[/quote]

Owen and Riise were only 24.
Kewell hadn't started being so bad then and was only 26.
Finnan was only 28.
Murphy was 27 and although not great was certainly more effective than Aquilani has been (and generally got a similar amount of goals to Yossi)
Hyypia and Hamann were admittedly 30 by then but if you are discounting them as aging legends then surely you have to do the same with Gerrard and Carragher now!!
[/quote]

Owen had run down his contract and made his up his mind to go before Rafa even came, and Kewell was about to enter his Degen years.

I was never a big fan of JAR's , but i agree that he's obviously better than what we have now.

I take your point with regards to Hyypia and Hamann, but i expect us to get at least another 6 years (combined) top class service out of S&C.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38644.msg1044734#msg1044734 date=1264687989]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044727#msg1044727 date=1264687087]
Yeah fair enough Oncy, i wouldn't disagree with a lot of that mate.

What i would add is that last summer i think we saw the end of the "revolving door policy", with a shift towards quality over quantity. Taking into account the squad he had in his early years with us, the fact that his budget was - at best - no more than that of his closest competitors, who all had a major head start on him, AND the fact that there are huge expectations of every Liverpool manager regardless of such factors, i don't think he had any other choice but to spread his kitty around.


[/quote]

Just added a couple of things which I think also have to be weighed in the balance. Rafa's made his own mistakes, but a fair assessment has to take all these things into account.
[/quote]

Cheers JJ you're quite right.

I think we all agree that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes in numerous areas, it's just that in the bad times it seems that all perspective is lost.

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044736#msg1044736 date=1264688044]
I was never a big fan of JAR's , but i agree that he's obviously better than what we have now.
[/quote]

I don't actually agree with that. Riise was always a clumsy defender, but kept his place because of the way he drove forward and often scored. In his last season his defending was as awkward as usual, but he didn't score any goals and in midfield, his extreme left-footedness was a handicap. I would rather have Insua. I think he's a pretty good little player.

 

[darkstarexodus]

Since we're lamenting players we wish were still here... My one man crusade continues for

BELLAMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[manwithnoname]

I don't actually agree with that. Riise was always a clumsy defender, but kept his place because of the way he drove forward and often scored. In his last season his defending was as awkward as usual, but he didn't score any goals and in midfield, his extreme left-footedness was a handicap. I would rather have Insua. I think he's a pretty good little player.

Wrong. All types of wrong. Wrong to the power of 10.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=38644.msg1044746#msg1044746 date=1264688755]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044736#msg1044736 date=1264688044]
I was never a big fan of JAR's , but i agree that he's obviously better than what we have now.
[/quote]

I don't actually agree with that. Riise was always a clumsy defender, but kept his place because of the way he drove forward and often scored. In his last season his defending was as awkward as usual, but he didn't score any goals and in midfield, his extreme left-footedness was a handicap. I would rather have Insua. I think he's a pretty good little player.
[/quote]

As it stands right now i think we need better than what either of them can offer Portly. Who knows maybe Insua just needs a little time to learn his position at this level?

Maybe my memory is failing me, but don't think i can remember JAR looking as much of a liability as what Insua has at certain times this season.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Juventus President Jean-Claude Blanc Flies Out To Liverpool To Present Rafael Benitez With An Offer
Reports in Italy claim Blanc is in Liverpool trying to tempt Benitez...
By Salvatore Landolina
Jan 28, 2010 2:16:00 PM

Juventus president Jean-Claude Blanc is taking swift action to land Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez sooner rather than later, claims Il Corriere Dello Sport.

The report claims Blanc has changed his strategy in terms of replacing current coach Ciro Ferrara. He has flown to Liverpool in order to untangle the issues surrounding Benitez and convince him to leave Anfield with immediate effect.

Blanc will use the unease in Merseyside to help sway Benitez. Liverpool's financial woes, as well as uncertainties between the club's board and the Spaniard could help push the move in Juve's favour.

However, there are no guarantees that Blanc's enthusiasm will pay off. As a result, Juve have deployed a second plan that will see Roberto Bettega in charge of bringing a short-term replacement that will take the team forwards until the end of the season.

Alberto Zaccheroni and Claudio Gentile are the favourites for this option. Further developments are expected and an announcement could arrive by the end of Thursday night's Coppa Italia fixture.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044739#msg1044739 date=1264688412]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38644.msg1044734#msg1044734 date=1264687989]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044727#msg1044727 date=1264687087]
Yeah fair enough Oncy, i wouldn't disagree with a lot of that mate.

What i would add is that last summer i think we saw the end of the "revolving door policy", with a shift towards quality over quantity. Taking into account the squad he had in his early years with us, the fact that his budget was - at best - no more than that of his closest competitors, who all had a major head start on him, AND the fact that there are huge expectations of every Liverpool manager regardless of such factors, i don't think he had any other choice but to spread his kitty around.


[/quote]

Just added a couple of things which I think also have to be weighed in the balance. Rafa's made his own mistakes, but a fair assessment has to take all these things into account.
[/quote]

Cheers JJ you're quite right.

I think we all agree that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes in numerous areas, it's just that in the bad times it seems that all perspective is lost.
[/quote]

You and JJ are massively undervaluing the (champions league winning) squad that he inherited. Rammed full with senior internationals.
Henchoz
Hyppia
Riise
Finnan
Dudek
Cisse
Owen
Gerrard
Carragher
Murphy
Smicer
Baros
Hamman
The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.
But Villa and Spurs are passing us by.....were fighting with Birmingham and Fulham. HOW FAR exactly were we behind when Rafa took over that in 6 years and after spending the best part of 150m we should be still making excuses and expecting to be nothing other than a top 4 side.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Henchoz - Was at the end of his career.
Hyppia - Ageing legend
Riise - Decent player
Finnan - Good player
Dudek - Not good enough
Cisse - Decent player
Owen - Ran down his contract and had made up his mind to leave before Rafa had even arrived.
Gerrard - Legend
Carragher - Legend
Murphy - Decent player
Smicer - Not good enough
Baros - Not good enough
Hamman - Was at the end of his career

Taking into account age and quality that squad was shite Oncy. Why was it that we received next to nothing for those senior international players like Smicer, Baros, Hamman, Murphy, Dudek, Finnan and Henchoz when they moved on?

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044739#msg1044739 date=1264688412]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38644.msg1044734#msg1044734 date=1264687989]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044727#msg1044727 date=1264687087]
Yeah fair enough Oncy, i wouldn't disagree with a lot of that mate.

What i would add is that last summer i think we saw the end of the "revolving door policy", with a shift towards quality over quantity. Taking into account the squad he had in his early years with us, the fact that his budget was - at best - no more than that of his closest competitors, who all had a major head start on him, AND the fact that there are huge expectations of every Liverpool manager regardless of such factors, i don't think he had any other choice but to spread his kitty around.


[/quote]

Just added a couple of things which I think also have to be weighed in the balance. Rafa's made his own mistakes, but a fair assessment has to take all these things into account.
[/quote]

Cheers JJ you're quite right.

I think we all agree that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes in numerous areas, it's just that in the bad times it seems that all perspective is lost.
[/quote]

You and JJ are massively undervaluing the (champions league winning) squad that he inherited. Rammed full with senior internationals.


Owen





The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.
But Villa and Spurs are passing us by.....were fighting with Birmingham and Fulham. HOW FAR exactly were we behind when Rafa took over that in 6 years and after spending the best part of 150m we should be still making excuses and expecting to be nothing other than a top 4 side.

[/quote]

Oi! ONCEARED! No!