Racist Manchester.

[Fabio]

Re: Re: Racist Manchester.

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=48569.msg1#msg1 date=1328481143]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=48569.msg1477877#msg1477877 date=1328480959]
So it's offensive for someone to consider you white, but not offensive for someone to think you act white, providing they're from the same ethnicity as you?

Even if it is enforcing a barrier between ethnicities?
[/quote]

Okay, how about actually reading the FIRST PARAGRAPH Fabio, where I've said I find it 'very offensive'?

See this is what I'm taking about, it was the same on the Suarez thread, people don't even want to actually read what you've written just what they want to understand.

I give up
[/quote]

Ok then. So...why isn't it racist? Tell me. they're using a racial slur by having a go at white people.
Am I allowed to be offended ? Because why is it a negative to have a white mind?

 

[gene hughes]

Anita, based on your logic it's ok for a white person to say to another white person that they are acting "like an Asian" with the understanding that that's not a good thing. Or to be more specific, it's ok for one white person to say to another "your skin may be white like mine but you act like an Asian". If you object to this, as an Asian person, I can tell you that you have simplistic view and don't understand white politics.

It's an untenable position.

 

[gene hughes]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=48569.msg1477886#msg1477886 date=1328481324]
You found "I don't even think of you as Asian, you're like one of us" offensive, which it is of course, but don't see coconut as racist. I know it can be used casually within certain communities, but this is just an echo of internalized racism, and a recapitulation of it. When you actually unpack what coconut means, especially in the way it was employed here, you arrive at a sentiment that is basically "You appear as though you are asian, but inside you aren't one of us, you are white inside. You should remember your physical appearance and act in accord with what is your essential nature so that you aren't in conflict."

It's an evolved, post colonial version of "remember your place".


Both of these are just a frank binary view of race which are fundamentally exclusive and values each race differently. Those principals are the basic apparatus upon which really pernicious forms of racism are built.




[/quote]

Well said.

 

[LadyRed]

You know Fabio when people take the kind of approach you have in this conversation it's pointless me saying anything further. I've said what I think, I'm not gonna sit here and argue it out back and forth all night with you, when it become about 'winning' the argument. You're entitled to think what you think, I've outlined what I think in the post above I'm not gonna go over and over it again.

Race is a complicated matter, I think it's unacceptable for Asian people to call each other p***s or coconuts nor do I like when black people call each other n*****s, and whilst I think it means they have a long way to go in terms of understanding their race, identity and history, I don't think it makes them racist. It just means they're ill-informed in understanding race, language and it's implications.

 

[Atlas]

Gene, where does Anita say it's ok?

She says it's offensive a number of times.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=48569.msg1477889#msg1477889 date=1328481486]
Anita, based on your logic it's ok for a white person to say to another white person that they are acting "like an Asian" with the understanding that that's not a good thing. Or to be more specific, it's ok for one white person to say to another "your skin may be white like mine but you act like an Asian". If you object to this, as an Asian person, I can tell you that you have simplistic view and don't understand white politics.

It's an untenable position.

[/quote]

Again it's a simplistic view that completely ignores colonial history

 

[gene hughes]

Here Asim.

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=48569.msg1477873#msg1477873 date=1328480768]
I don't know how many different ways or times to say it, having been called a coconut, more than once I find it very offensive but I don't think it's racist when it's two people of the same race because it can mean so many different things and be said for so many different reasons.

Who this particular Powell person or whoever is, I don't know nor do I care. I logged on and read about people saying one Asian person calling another a coconut is racist; that I disagree with.

I get the argument people are making that it suggests that one thinks race is linked with behaviour and therefore that's racist. But again I disagree that's a very simplistic way of looking at things.

[/quote]

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Atlas link=topic=48569.msg1477896#msg1477896 date=1328481863]
Gene, where does Anita say it's ok?

She says it's offensive a number of times.
[/quote]

It's honestly pointless, no one actually wants to read what's being written

 

[gene hughes]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=48569.msg1477898#msg1477898 date=1328481927]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=48569.msg1477889#msg1477889 date=1328481486]
Anita, based on your logic it's ok for a white person to say to another white person that they are acting "like an Asian" with the understanding that that's not a good thing. Or to be more specific, it's ok for one white person to say to another "your skin may be white like mine but you act like an Asian". If you object to this, as an Asian person, I can tell you that you have simplistic view and don't understand white politics.

It's an untenable position.

[/quote]

Again it's a simplistic view that completely ignores colonial history
[/quote]

Ha ha ha ha.

You're a shambles.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=48569.msg1477900#msg1477900 date=1328482038]
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=48569.msg1477896#msg1477896 date=1328481863]
Gene, where does Anita say it's ok?

She says it's offensive a number of times.
[/quote]

It's honestly pointless, no one actually wants to read what's being written
[/quote]

I do. I think Asim fucked you over in this thread, as in he'd already made a total fuck up of your position before you entered the thread. Thanks to him you've been backed into a corner with your hands tied behind your back and are taking an almighty beating on his behalf. Then when the guilt gets too much for Asim and he steps in to help you, it just gives gene more weaponary to inflict an even more incredible beating.

I feel sorry that everyone finds it boring and gets frustrated. But it's really interesting to watch how you all interact

 

[LadyRed]

Yeah ok, whatever you say Gene.

I'm more pissed off with myself for even coming near this thread, but thanks for the reminders of where we actually are on things

 

[gene hughes]

I know where we are Anita. You're a racist and I'm not.

[size=36pt]EAT MY STUNNING ACCUSATION[/size]

 

[Farkmaster]

Anita, I'm not wading into this stuff to say, HA GOTCHA, because I wouldn't presume to know anything about you or your experiences. I'm arguing a position I believe in.


Your decision to leave and not engage in the discussion in a meaningful way once challenged looks closed minded, and its one of several recent times you've done it. I don't think you are giving anyone any credit.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Everything Anita has said is applicable to the situations in her own experience. But it so clearly is not applicable to Powar. I think she knows this given her sly hints that she doesn't really know who Powar is or what he said about Suarez, and also her statement that "coconut can mean so many different things depending upon the people and situation". Had Asim not been oblivious to the inherent racist element in what Powar said and foolishly come out in support of him, then Anita would 100% have codemned him for his tweet.

 

[Atlas]

Offensive and racist are separate things though right?

Neither are 'ok', I mean that's how I read it.

 

[Fabio]

I asked a question anita and you've not answered.

coconut isnt racist to you but you find it offensive.

It is racist to me

I'm not doing anything to "win" an argument. Frankly, fark and gene are doing enough without my simplistic interludes. Hell, even dantes has a firm grasp of this.

I'm asking why it isn't racist in your eyes, when it is against white people?

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=48569.msg1477908#msg1477908 date=1328482682]
Anita, I'm not wading into this stuff to say, HA GOTCHA, because I wouldn't presume to know anything about you or your experiences. I'm arguing a position I believe in.


Your decision to leave and not engage in the discussion in a meaningful way once challenged looks closed minded, and its one of several recent times you've done it. I don't think you are giving anyone any credit.
[/quote]

Maybe if she said you were all "grating" on her, then it would have been ok to walk away?

 

[singlerider]

Neets, as I said before, you're missing the point.

However, it has now been explained to you a number of times so you're either ignoring it or are guilty of what you accuse other people of - namely not reading what has been written.

Calling somebody a coconut, regardless of whether they find it offensive or not, is inherently racist as it implies that 'acting white' is a bad thing.

This is incomparable to two black people calling each other 'nigga' or something like that.

It is racist.

It is racist towards White people.

It doesn't matter that 99.99% of White people wouldn't be that offended by it, the ideological position it takes up is fundamentally racist.

I know racism as well as anybody on here, I've taken the fucking kickings and been called the names. If anything I know it more than somebody who is 'just black' or 'just Asian' as I've been a chink to the whites and a gwai lo to the Chinese - I know what racism is, and calling somebody a coconut is basically racist

 

[Farkmaster]

Dantes, I discussed many many things with you before my patience ran out, not with the points you were making particularly, but the fact that the discussion was just meandering wherever you wanted it to.


This is a pretty confined, reasonable discussion, up until Anita and Gene's most recent posts. I gave up on our "discussion" precisely because there's no point getting to that point.


That's the difference between logic and emotion and a logic of emotion.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48569.msg1477878#msg1477878 date=1328481032]
Everyone is racist deep down.
[/quote]

No they fucking are not. Thats you believing what the FA tell you.

 

[monsieurdantes]

If I knew what point or where I want the discussion to go, then I would see no point in having it in the first place. I'd rather learn something I don't know frustrating the fuck out of you in the process, rather than to quickly and efficiently explain to you what I already know about.

 

[Farkmaster]

I find all sorts of disagreements with people to be illuminating and productive. We must not be a good match, I'm sure it's just me, so just let it go. I'm sure you'll have more opportunities to frustrate the fuck out of me in future discussion.

 

[SummerOnions]

Threads like this make me sad.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=48569.msg1477911#msg1477911 date=1328482888]
I asked a question anita and you've not answered.

coconut isnt racist to you but you find it offensive.

It is racist to me

I'm not doing anything to "win" an argument. Frankly, fark and gene are doing enough without my simplistic interludes. Hell, even dantes has a firm grasp of this.

I'm asking why it isn't racist in your eyes, when it is against white people?
[/quote]

Harsh...very harsh.

He usually grasps things much better than anyone on this site. But he is in the sin-bin currently for laboring his point on this subject a bit too much in other threads. I agree with him on most of what he has said on the subject which Rosco has repeatedly failed to grasp what Dantes has said whilst furiously waving his "i'm a lawyer" card....

 

[Judge Jules]

Seconded.

 

[LadyRed]

Singlerider: the term 'coconut' much like the term 'uncle Tom' is about one betraying their own race/culture ether than being about the culture/race that one is seen to be imitating.

But if people consider that to be racist then so be it, I guess we all hae differing views on such things, the Suarez thread demonstrated that perfectly

 

[Sunny]

I remember in school we had two black lads in our year. One day one of them called the other a "choc ice" i.e. he was "black on the outside but white on the inside". I'm guessing this coconut thing is similar. Makes me wonder why these terms exist though. It seems if you're perhaps black or Asian you're fucked if you do and fucked if you don't. What do they do ? Attempt to align their thoughts and behaviours with the culture within the country they were born or currently live and risk criticism from their cultural peer group because they don't align with their historical culture regardless of whether they were actually born there or not. Or maintain their historical cultural beliefs and receive criticism from the rest of the population for not making attempts to "fit in".

Why you can't have both I don't really understand as I'm not close enough to it but whilst those attitudes remain the foundations for racism will always be there. There's a lot more work to do in this country obviously. I do agree with some on here - the terms coconut, choc ice whatever - they do infer that behaving like a white person is somewhat wrong and that could be construed as racist as well.

 

[mark1975]

At the end of the day, moralistically you have to just be a better person, I accept as a Catholic that not all aspects of my religion are perfect and I'll take the parts that I think make sense ethically, and equally dismiss the more draconian ideals. The same has to apply across the board, why should I be subjected to being branded a racist or whatever for criticising aspects of other cultures? Just because I don't come from that cultural background, it doesn't mean I can't criticise the morals of it's practices. No Religion or culture is perfect, which is why it's more important for people to take the spiritual aspect and use it well to make themselves a better person.

And I don't accept that it's ok for a black guy to call another black guy a '****' or whatever, just because it's their race. I've never and will never understand that. Someone posted in reply to that Evra Chelsea rant clip that it was ok for him to call someone a **** because he's black. Well, no it's not. If you're going to take offence to the word when used in a derogatory manner, then it should become a word you want to drive out of society, not one you use when you see fit.

 

[Farkmaster]

Racism at the Bus Stop **HD**